The Confederacy and States' Rights

[JakeStarkey]

If Lincoln had lived, they would have been readmitted just in that way. That they weren't was the result of the ignorant Black Codes, former rebels trying to sit in Congress, Andrew Johnson's waffling, and the Radical Reconstructionists' hatred of the Old South.

My opinion only: the North won the war, the South won the peace.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

To deny that the Confederates- no matter how wrong they were on any number of moral points- had the right to self-determination is to deny the same rights of the Patriots and of the People today to.

 

[JakeStarkey]

False analogy, Proletarian.

An aside: just think, P, every person of color who is a citizen of the U.S. can vote, just like you can!

Is this a great country or what!!

 

[Againsheila]

Well, my great grandfather fought on the side that won, and decided the legality of that issue. The Civil War is over and done with. We decided that the United States was what the name said. Time to move on to today's issues, like a health care system that gives us what we pay for. Issues like energy independence. Issues like dealing with the warming world. Issues of asymetric warfare as practiced by various religious or ideological groups.

My great grandfather fought on the side that lost...do you really believe your great grandfather has more of a right to decide our future than mine?

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it......today, there are at least 1/2 a dozen states openly talking about seceding from the union. As soon as one does, if it's not this state, I'm leaving my home and going to their state and join them.

The union only won because the government used the excuse of "slavery" as a reason for fighting the south. The stupid union soldiers didn't even know that 4 slaveholding states remained with the north or that the emancipation proclamation didn't apply to the slaves in the northern territory or those in southern territory already under northern command.

As usual, our government getting people to do what they want by LYING to them.

Oh,and just so you know, I have great grandfathers that fought on both sides of the war and I have relatives even further back that fought on both sides of the revolutionary war.

 

[JakeStarkey]

(sigh) OK.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

False analogy, Proletarian.

It's not an analogy. It's the exact same thing: the right to self determination and the right and power of the People to exercise it.

Of course, America never believed in any such right.

 

[Againsheila]

Sunni Man, if that is true, then the South should have lost because of certain defects included in our founding document. Some, such as representation and freedom from religious intolerance, have been worked out peacefully. But the issue of slavery had to be eliminated by warfare because of the South's inhumanity to mankind, its hatred of personal liberty.

And, Kevin, the Sons of the South nonsense is getting old. The Confederates, like our Republicans in the last election, lost. Choices have consequences. Deal with it.

IMHO, you are overlooking the fact that even after the emancipation proclamation freed all the slaves in the Confederate states there were still over 250,000 slaves held in the Union states, so where do you get off claiming the South was the inhumane one when it was the Union that required the 13th Amendment to free the Northern slaves?

The North had emancipated its slaves long before. The South and some of the border states would not emancipate after getting their collective csa butts kicked, so it required the 13th amendment. Those bad states had to approve the amendment to get back into the Union. Rightfully so.

The Sons of the Souths' mentalities are traitors, pure and simple. No need to listen to them, and their children are being educated appropriately on this issue. Not to worry. The home and parochial school get it in college and university. Good for them.

<<<

Baloney, there were slaves in the north AFTER the civil war ended, they were the LAST to be freed.

University of Delaware Library Special Collections: Abraham Lincoln > Slavery and Emancipation

The Emancipation Proclamation



After the Union won the Battle of Antietam in September 1862, the president issued a decree declaring that he would free all slaves in the Confederacy unless the states surrendered and rejoined the Union. When they refused, Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1, 1863.

The Proclamation had a limited scope: it did not free slaves in slave states that stayed in the Union nor in territories that had already been conquered by the Northern troops. It would require military victories to actually free the three million slaves in the Confederacy.

The Proclamation also permitted freed slaves to join the Union Army, something Lincoln had avoided before in order to pacify supporters in the border states. By the end of the war, almost 200,000 black soldiers and sailors had taken part in securing their own freedom.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, it wasn't, and you saying it was does not make it so. You are entitled to wrong opinion, and that's cool.

One of the great things of the CW was the advancement of black rights, from slavery to citizenship. An important step, for sure.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Oh, stop the nonsense about northern states having slaves. Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri were not part of the North, P.

 

[Againsheila]

Oh, stop the nonsense about northern states having slaves. Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri were not part of the North, P.

They remained with the union and they fought on the side of the union, that's the north for those who are really really slow. Would you like me to type slower so you can understand?

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

Oh, stop the nonsense about northern states having slaves. Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri were not part of the North, P.

Did they secede and Join the Confederacy or form a third power?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Secessionist movements were quashed, and Union forces made sure the states did not go South, but to suggest they were part of the North makes reason stare.

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

Hey... if the Confederate States never left the Union, then the existence of West Virginia is illegal, as the Constitution says that no State can split into two States without the State legislator voting to allow it.

West Virginia can only exist if the Confederacy was an independent entity and the member states of the CSA left the Union, allowing W.V. to join the Union as a new State prior to the readmission of the other states. The legislature of Virginia did not agree to a split- it voted to secede and a smal branch decided to form a new state.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Not at all, P. Go read the petititon of West Virginia for state hood. It clearly explains the abomination of Virginia's corporate sedition, and WV's desire to remain a part of the United States as true believers in the Declaration and the Constitution, unlike those who attempted to pervert those documents.

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

Jake, if the majority voted to stay in the union, why did Virginia secede with only a small number of loyalists forming the WV?

Anyway, the point of the thread remains that to deny the right of the people to self determination is to spit on the FF and all they stood for and to surrender all liberty to the State.

 

[Againsheila]

Not at all, P. Go read the petititon of West Virginia for state hood. It clearly explains the abomination of Virginia's corporate sedition, and WV's desire to remain a part of the United States as true believers in the Declaration and the Constitution, unlike those who attempted to pervert those documents.

True believers in the Declaration of Independence recognize that the Declaration gave the south not only the right, but the duty to secede.

Lincoln was elected without a single vote from a southern state. Tariffs on the manufactured goods made overseas affected the south disproportionately and the south wasn't being represented in congress as it should have been, in fact, the south was being treated abominably by our government, they had every right to secede, at least according to the Declaration of Independence.

Now, as to whether or not we'd be a powerful country today had the south actually succeeded, is another thing entirely. Truth is though, that we are losing our country to the elite few anyway so why even worry about it. When an official of the Mexican government can say in San Diego "This has and will be Mexico again" to American citizens and our government does NOTHING...it's pretty clear we are once again NOT being represented by our government.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The OP has been flawed from the beginning, has clearly been refuted, and the supports of secession have increasingly adopted ever more wierd positions of denial. You are succeeding in creating a pathological stubborness, I will admit. Anyway, you have proved your opponents positions time after time.

I will leave you to it tonight. Sleep well.

 

[Citizen]

There is nothing in our Constitution that prevents a free state from dissolving their alliance with the Federal government if it became oppressive to them. I would also like to point out that when some states voluntary joined the Union they specifically noted that they reserved the option to opt out of that union if it became oppressive toward them.

It seems apparent that the Declaration of Independence clearly states that Free and Independent States have not only the right, but the responsibility to separate themselves from an oppressive government.

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

 

[JakeStarkey]

Silly stuff, citizen. You are suggesting that the South was denied life, liberty, and happiness ~ they weren't. You are suggesting they suffered outrageous suffering at the hands of the North ~ they lost an election.

The fact remains the leaders of the South were seditious: they defied constitutional electoral process and suffered the consequence. Good riddance to rubbish.

 

[Citizen]

Silly stuff, citizen. You are suggesting that the South was denied life, liberty, and happiness ~ they weren't. You are suggesting they suffered outrageous suffering at the hands of the North ~ they lost an election.

The fact remains the leaders of the South were seditious: they defied constitutional electoral process and suffered the consequence. Good riddance to rubbish.

Although you may not find any problems with the fact that the North was forcing the South to pay for most of the Northern improvements, paid for by the federal government, via tariffs imposed upon the South, those that were compelled to pay tribute to the North felt that they were being denied their liberty and ability to pursue happiness.

The unjust taxation and expenditure of taxes by the Government of the United States, and the change of the government from a confederated republic to a national sectional despotism was clearly an infringment of unalienable Rights of the citizens of the South .

The North wanted high tariffs on imported goods to protect its own manufactured products, while the South wanted low tariffs on imports and exports since it exported cotton and tobacco to Europe and imported manufactured goods in exchange. High tariffs depressed the price for Southern exports and caused them to have to pay high prices for what they bought and got low prices for what they sold because of federal tariff policy which they were powerless to change. The South felt that they were being dominated by the mercantile interests of the North who profited from these high tariffs.

As examples, in 1840 the South paid 84% of the tariffs, rising to 87% in 1860. The South paid 83% of the $13 million federal fishing bounties paid to New England fishermen, and also paid $35 million to Northern shipping interests which has a monopoly on shipping from Southern ports.

The Morill tariff of March 1861 imposed the highest tariffs in US history, with over 50% duty on iron products and 25% on clothing; rates averaged 47%.

The South was paying tribute to the North, and the only way to stop it was to withdraw from the Union they had voluntary entered, with nothing included in the US Constitution to prevent such separation.

At the Constitutional Convention in 1787, Virginia proposed a requirement for a two-thirds majority to enact laws regulating commerce and levying tariffs, which were the chief revenue of the federal government. Virginia withdrew its amendment at the Convention in the interest of adopting the Constitution, but ratification was with the understanding that it could be rescinded if the powers granted the federal government were used to oppress, and that Virginia could them withdraw from the Union.

The fact that the Southern states were being oppressed by the North is clearly an example of infringment of their unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. And remember that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.