The Consequences of a Post-Christian America Revealed by COVID-19

[there4eyeM]

The difference with your post, of course, is that you didn't base your questions on anything I said. You just made them up. I, on the other hand, have quotes from you saying that Christians know no human can keep them safe (post #59), and you responding with a yes when I asked you if Christian children know their parents cannot keep them safe (post #67).

You didn't actually answer my questions, but I'm happy to answer yours.

The US government is my government and your government, assuming you are a US citizen. I don't think of it as precious. I certainly don't think it can keep everyone safe every day in every circumstance, from this virus or anything else. On the other hand, I also don't think that this is a binary equation in which the government either keeps everyone safe from everything all of the time, or does nothing.

Of course, I also think it's possible for one person to keep another person safe, at least in some circumstances.

You expect me to actually respond to your stupid, inane, junior high level strawman argument

And include a winky sign because you think you actually GOT ME. That's embarrassing, for you. But okay.

I'm going to start again with the OP, alright there, pal? The FUNCTION of the US govt is not to "keep us safe". That's why we have the 2nd amendment. It is only a small measure of safety against "enemies, foreign and domestic". You somehow now want to twist this into gotcha games with human beings and parents-children, as if you prove some kind of point that parents can, in some measure, keep children safe, you have won a Constitutional argument, or proven what the government's role should be.

The Constitution was written, and works, because the American populace never NEEDED the government to "keep us safe". I'm really going to end there because your skills at argumentation are beyond frustrating, to be honest.

Aren’t you making an argument to disband the military?

The military is a government institution that keeps us safe.

Same with the local and state police.

Sure, on an national and societal level.

They do not keep us safe on a personal level as their chief function, and were not intended to. Our gov't chief function is to protect individual rights conferred by God.

"Government" is the result of the social contract, and exists to regulate society. If society expresses a value for "individual rights" (whatever they may be), that would then play its part. There are governments and societies that put the emphasis on collective security and the freedom from violence and crime over personal, individual liberties that are often misused against others.

Please do me one favor. Do not give me dictionary definitions in theory. Let's talk about the actual topic, thank you.

O.K.
The Consequences of a Post-Christian America Revealed by COVID-19
This is a false premise because a "post-Christian America" posits something non-existent.

 

[ding]

This isn’t the first time I have been told by a Christian that I’m not a Christian and I doubt it will be the last.

Your soul you must reconcile with God. I respect that. Just do not pass off to others that they have the Spirit of God, especially in what I many others believe are these last days, when they most decided do not, but need Him.

Thanks for judging my soul, Sue.

Actually you just judged me totally apart from the very words I said. Interesting!

Actually I didn’t. But I am open to hearing how you believe I did?

I said, LITERALLY, "your soul you must reconcile with God". What does that mean to you? That means I cannot judge it, ding. But you made the blanket statement that "we all have the spirit of God", which is utter nonsense that I would expect anyone NOT professing to be a Christian to utter.

So only Christians are worthy of God’s spirit?

you have judged me by inferring I need to reconcile with God for my beliefs.

 

[SweetSue92]

You expect me to actually respond to your stupid, inane, junior high level strawman argument

And include a winky sign because you think you actually GOT ME. That's embarrassing, for you. But okay.

I'm going to start again with the OP, alright there, pal? The FUNCTION of the US govt is not to "keep us safe". That's why we have the 2nd amendment. It is only a small measure of safety against "enemies, foreign and domestic". You somehow now want to twist this into gotcha games with human beings and parents-children, as if you prove some kind of point that parents can, in some measure, keep children safe, you have won a Constitutional argument, or proven what the government's role should be.

The Constitution was written, and works, because the American populace never NEEDED the government to "keep us safe". I'm really going to end there because your skills at argumentation are beyond frustrating, to be honest.

Aren’t you making an argument to disband the military?

The military is a government institution that keeps us safe.

Same with the local and state police.

Sure, on an national and societal level.

They do not keep us safe on a personal level as their chief function, and were not intended to. Our gov't chief function is to protect individual rights conferred by God.

"Government" is the result of the social contract, and exists to regulate society. If society expresses a value for "individual rights" (whatever they may be), that would then play its part. There are governments and societies that put the emphasis on collective security and the freedom from violence and crime over personal, individual liberties that are often misused against others.

Please do me one favor. Do not give me dictionary definitions in theory. Let's talk about the actual topic, thank you.

O.K.
The Consequences of a Post-Christian America Revealed by COVID-19
This is a false premise because a "post-Christian America" posits something non-existent.

We are a secular nation

 

[SweetSue92]

Your soul you must reconcile with God. I respect that. Just do not pass off to others that they have the Spirit of God, especially in what I many others believe are these last days, when they most decided do not, but need Him.

Thanks for judging my soul, Sue.

Actually you just judged me totally apart from the very words I said. Interesting!

Actually I didn’t. But I am open to hearing how you believe I did?

I said, LITERALLY, "your soul you must reconcile with God". What does that mean to you? That means I cannot judge it, ding. But you made the blanket statement that "we all have the spirit of God", which is utter nonsense that I would expect anyone NOT professing to be a Christian to utter.

So only Christians are worthy of God’s spirit?

Yes. According to God, according to the Bible. Not according to me.

Ding, you are not the first to make up your own religion and you won't be the last. But what you believe, it's not Christianity.

By the way, waiting for those quotes from the Women at the Well.

 

[SweetSue92]

Your soul you must reconcile with God. I respect that. Just do not pass off to others that they have the Spirit of God, especially in what I many others believe are these last days, when they most decided do not, but need Him.

Thanks for judging my soul, Sue.

Actually you just judged me totally apart from the very words I said. Interesting!

Actually I didn’t. But I am open to hearing how you believe I did?

I said, LITERALLY, "your soul you must reconcile with God". What does that mean to you? That means I cannot judge it, ding. But you made the blanket statement that "we all have the spirit of God", which is utter nonsense that I would expect anyone NOT professing to be a Christian to utter.

So only Christians are worthy of God’s spirit?

you have judged me.

If I have judged you, then you are judging me. See how easy that is? It's a neverending game. You find my religion to be too harsh or whatever, so you have remade it for yourself and are now judging me.

Stop with all the "judging" language; it's not helpful.

 

[ESay]

I have never understood the logic behind believing that unless everyone is kept safe or nothing bad can ever happen that there can be no God.

Could one of you good people explain that to me?

Coyote Montrovant JoeB131 ESay

I haven't made such a claim. Where did you get it from?

 

[ding]

Thanks for judging my soul, Sue.

Actually you just judged me totally apart from the very words I said. Interesting!

Actually I didn’t. But I am open to hearing how you believe I did?

I said, LITERALLY, "your soul you must reconcile with God". What does that mean to you? That means I cannot judge it, ding. But you made the blanket statement that "we all have the spirit of God", which is utter nonsense that I would expect anyone NOT professing to be a Christian to utter.

So only Christians are worthy of God’s spirit?

Yes. According to God, according to the Bible. Not according to me.

Ding, you are not the first to make up your own religion and you won't be the last. But what you believe, it's not Christianity.

By the way, waiting for those quotes from the Women at the Well.

Sue, I’m a cradle catholic. Which is probably worse in your eyes than being a Muslim or atheist.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

The good people in the NHS have kept me and my family safe all our lives. Maybe I should have bought a machine gun instead ?

Do you teach this shit in class Sue ?

 

[Montrovant]

Perhaps your skills at explanation are a bit lacking.

I see you still don't care to explain your statements. If it's frustrating for you to be asked to clarify things like "Christians know that no other human being can keep them safe," you might not want to post them.

I'm not at all embarrassed by using emojis. I do it all the time. It's what they are there for!

That is exactly the truth, actually. No other human being can keep them safe. Now you want to argue semantics. I'm not interested, unless YOU are interested in arguing this statement: "Americans know that the government cannot keep them safe".

It's ridiculous. You knew what I meant and expect me to go down a rabbit trail.

No.

I STILL don't know just what you meant. You may be happy to assume you know what someone means other than what they actually post, but I'm not going to do that, especially with the OP you created. I'm not even sure what you mean by a post-Christian America.

I don't think that Americans en masse "know that the government cannot keep them safe." Some believe that to be true, others don't. It depends in part on what they are being kept safe from; I hope you are just talking about the COVID-19 virus. The government can certainly do things to make things safer for Americans with regards to the virus. Some of the things it can do will cause other problems. Your posts so far in this thread, including the OP, still have me wondering if you believe the government (local/state/federal) should do/have done nothing at all in response to this pandemic.

When you have no belief in God, your god is your stomach. That's in the Bible. Your chief goal in life then is to simply stay alive. I know it's probably impossible for a non-Christian to imagine any OTHER goal or higher values. But they exist.

When your chief goal is survival, you will look anywhere for safety. When you don't believe in God, and you're an adult, who keeps you safe?

"The Authorities"

For pity's sake, look at the wreckage of human history for how THAT turns out

Wait, you don't think people of faiths other than Christianity, or those without religious faith, can imagine a higher goal than simple survival?

Yes. People of other faiths are more likely to live for more than "safety".

People without any faith at all mostly live for their stomach.

This is a good example of why asking for clarification is a good thing. You said non-Christians can't understand a higher goal, but apparently meant those without faith.

I think you do a great disservice to humanity in general if you think people without faith's chief goal is simply to stay alive. I think pretty much everyone wants to survive, but people can find all sorts of goals or values or causes for which they place a higher value than their own survival.

 

[ding]

I have never understood the logic behind believing that unless everyone is kept safe or nothing bad can ever happen that there can be no God.

Could one of you good people explain that to me?

Coyote Montrovant JoeB131 ESay

I haven't made such a claim. Where did you get it from?

If I have made an error I apologize.

 

[SweetSue92]

Actually you just judged me totally apart from the very words I said. Interesting!

Actually I didn’t. But I am open to hearing how you believe I did?

I said, LITERALLY, "your soul you must reconcile with God". What does that mean to you? That means I cannot judge it, ding. But you made the blanket statement that "we all have the spirit of God", which is utter nonsense that I would expect anyone NOT professing to be a Christian to utter.

So only Christians are worthy of God’s spirit?

Yes. According to God, according to the Bible. Not according to me.

Ding, you are not the first to make up your own religion and you won't be the last. But what you believe, it's not Christianity.

By the way, waiting for those quotes from the Women at the Well.

Sue, I’m a cradle catholic. Which is probably worse in your eyes than being a Muslim or atheist.

You know what they say about assuming

I'm gonna cry about you judging me. That was really too easy ding lol

 

[ding]

Thanks for judging my soul, Sue.

Actually you just judged me totally apart from the very words I said. Interesting!

Actually I didn’t. But I am open to hearing how you believe I did?

I said, LITERALLY, "your soul you must reconcile with God". What does that mean to you? That means I cannot judge it, ding. But you made the blanket statement that "we all have the spirit of God", which is utter nonsense that I would expect anyone NOT professing to be a Christian to utter.

So only Christians are worthy of God’s spirit?

you have judged me.

If I have judged you, then you are judging me. See how easy that is? It's a neverending game. You find my religion to be too harsh or whatever, so you have remade it for yourself and are now judging me.

Stop with all the "judging" language; it's not helpful.

No Sue, I haven’t. I don’t believe two wrongs makes a right.

I don’t recall commenting on your religion, Sue.

I don’t attack other people’s faith. That’s between them and God.

 

[there4eyeM]

I don't think that argument would be that everyone has to be kept safe or there can be no god. It would probably be more along the lines of everyone should be kept safe or there is no all-powerful, all-knowing, loving and merciful god. The reason for that would be that allowing pain and suffering, when it doesn't have to exist, doesn't seem to be loving or merciful.

That's the best I've got off the top of my head. I'm not sure I've ever seen that argument presented, at least not in quite that form.

Pain and suffering exist because this ain't Heaven yet

It can as easily and logically be maintained that "pain and suffering" exist so that we can experience their lack.

My belief is that God created the material world to experience the material world through us.

Interesting, though clearly this anthropomorphizes 'God', indicating that 'God' had a desire for something 'God' lacked.

If that’s how you want to see it but that seems to be a position led by confirmation bias. As in you don’t want to believe God exists so you create arguments that confirm that belief.

whereas I started from the position of why would God create existence and looked for the most plausible reason I could find. So if you started from the position of why what would your answer be?

A person could well believe 'God' exists and is impossible to limit with words. That direct experience is the only kind that truly matters. That making images would dis-serve 'God'.

 

[SweetSue92]

The good people in the NHS have kept me and my family safe all our lives. Maybe I should have bought a machine gun instead ?

Do you teach this shit in class Sue ?

hahahahahahah

Tommy comes to prove the point that secular Leftists love safety above all

This is why they worship the NHS....see the skeevy London Olympics Worship Service a few years ago

 

[SweetSue92]

Actually you just judged me totally apart from the very words I said. Interesting!

Actually I didn’t. But I am open to hearing how you believe I did?

I said, LITERALLY, "your soul you must reconcile with God". What does that mean to you? That means I cannot judge it, ding. But you made the blanket statement that "we all have the spirit of God", which is utter nonsense that I would expect anyone NOT professing to be a Christian to utter.

So only Christians are worthy of God’s spirit?

you have judged me.

If I have judged you, then you are judging me. See how easy that is? It's a neverending game. You find my religion to be too harsh or whatever, so you have remade it for yourself and are now judging me.

Stop with all the "judging" language; it's not helpful.

No Sue, I haven’t. I don’t believe two wrongs makes a right.

I don’t recall commenting on your religion, Sue.

I don’t attack other people’s faith. That’s between them and God.

Okay. I will absolutely correct you if you profess to be a Christian here and are stating wrong doctrine. That is absolutely right and correct of me to do. Sorry if you feel personally attacked; it is not at all personal. It is a public service.

 

[SweetSue92]

Your soul you must reconcile with God. I respect that. Just do not pass off to others that they have the Spirit of God, especially in what I many others believe are these last days, when they most decided do not, but need Him.

Thanks for judging my soul, Sue.

Actually you just judged me totally apart from the very words I said. Interesting!

Actually I didn’t. But I am open to hearing how you believe I did?

I said, LITERALLY, "your soul you must reconcile with God". What does that mean to you? That means I cannot judge it, ding. But you made the blanket statement that "we all have the spirit of God", which is utter nonsense that I would expect anyone NOT professing to be a Christian to utter.

So only Christians are worthy of God’s spirit?

you have judged me by inferring I need to reconcile with God for my beliefs.

You do not need to do anything. I wish you would, but you don't need to.

Like the warnings against false teachers in the Epistles. I do not want false information spread.

 

[ding]

Actually I didn’t. But I am open to hearing how you believe I did?

I said, LITERALLY, "your soul you must reconcile with God". What does that mean to you? That means I cannot judge it, ding. But you made the blanket statement that "we all have the spirit of God", which is utter nonsense that I would expect anyone NOT professing to be a Christian to utter.

So only Christians are worthy of God’s spirit?

Yes. According to God, according to the Bible. Not according to me.

Ding, you are not the first to make up your own religion and you won't be the last. But what you believe, it's not Christianity.

By the way, waiting for those quotes from the Women at the Well.

Sue, I’m a cradle catholic. Which is probably worse in your eyes than being a Muslim or atheist.

You know what they say about assuming

I'm gonna cry about you judging me. That was really too easy ding lol

I’m not judging you, Sue. I am judging your behaviors. For example, you are behaving pridefully. That doesn’t make you a bad person.

so my statement had a qualifier which was the word probably. My statement was based upon your belief that only Christians have the spirit of God within them.

I tell you that God chooses who is invited to the feast and I will never impose my restrictions upon his spirit and I will always assume his spirit is in everyone. And I will never get in his way.

 

[ding]

Thanks for judging my soul, Sue.

Actually you just judged me totally apart from the very words I said. Interesting!

Actually I didn’t. But I am open to hearing how you believe I did?

I said, LITERALLY, "your soul you must reconcile with God". What does that mean to you? That means I cannot judge it, ding. But you made the blanket statement that "we all have the spirit of God", which is utter nonsense that I would expect anyone NOT professing to be a Christian to utter.

So only Christians are worthy of God’s spirit?

you have judged me by inferring I need to reconcile with God for my beliefs.

You do not need to do anything. I wish you would, but you don't need to.

Like the warnings against false teachers in the Epistles. I do not want false information spread.

You aren’t God, Sue.

Do you believe Catholics are Christians?

 

[SweetSue92]

That is exactly the truth, actually. No other human being can keep them safe. Now you want to argue semantics. I'm not interested, unless YOU are interested in arguing this statement: "Americans know that the government cannot keep them safe".

It's ridiculous. You knew what I meant and expect me to go down a rabbit trail.

No.

I STILL don't know just what you meant. You may be happy to assume you know what someone means other than what they actually post, but I'm not going to do that, especially with the OP you created. I'm not even sure what you mean by a post-Christian America.

I don't think that Americans en masse "know that the government cannot keep them safe." Some believe that to be true, others don't. It depends in part on what they are being kept safe from; I hope you are just talking about the COVID-19 virus. The government can certainly do things to make things safer for Americans with regards to the virus. Some of the things it can do will cause other problems. Your posts so far in this thread, including the OP, still have me wondering if you believe the government (local/state/federal) should do/have done nothing at all in response to this pandemic.

When you have no belief in God, your god is your stomach. That's in the Bible. Your chief goal in life then is to simply stay alive. I know it's probably impossible for a non-Christian to imagine any OTHER goal or higher values. But they exist.

When your chief goal is survival, you will look anywhere for safety. When you don't believe in God, and you're an adult, who keeps you safe?

"The Authorities"

For pity's sake, look at the wreckage of human history for how THAT turns out

Wait, you don't think people of faiths other than Christianity, or those without religious faith, can imagine a higher goal than simple survival?

Yes. People of other faiths are more likely to live for more than "safety".

People without any faith at all mostly live for their stomach.

This is a good example of why asking for clarification is a good thing. You said non-Christians can't understand a higher goal, but apparently meant those without faith.

I think you do a great disservice to humanity in general if you think people without faith's chief goal is simply to stay alive. I think pretty much everyone wants to survive, but people can find all sorts of goals or values or causes for which they place a higher value than their own survival.

Well. That idea is being tested all around us, isn't it? And honestly, what I find on this forum, and everywhere, is a lot of scared people with chronic health conditions in an absolute panic scolding, shaming, and screaming at the rest of us to stay inside, not go out, and worse--so much worse--stop working, stop making money, stop going to school, shut down businesses and livelihoods and everything because their lives are at risk.

And I would propose to you that if we had a herd Christian worldview we would be seeing a LOT less mass panic on this. I do absolutely, fully understand asking people to forgo concerts and sporting events, for pity's sake. But there is a LOT of panic around people even putting food in their kids' bellies.

So, yes. What I said in the OP stands. I see very little evidence of, "When the good Lord wants to take me it's my time, and praise be His Name"

 

[ding]

Pain and suffering exist because this ain't Heaven yet

It can as easily and logically be maintained that "pain and suffering" exist so that we can experience their lack.

My belief is that God created the material world to experience the material world through us.

Interesting, though clearly this anthropomorphizes 'God', indicating that 'God' had a desire for something 'God' lacked.

If that’s how you want to see it but that seems to be a position led by confirmation bias. As in you don’t want to believe God exists so you create arguments that confirm that belief.

whereas I started from the position of why would God create existence and looked for the most plausible reason I could find. So if you started from the position of why what would your answer be?

A person could well believe 'God' exists and is impossible to limit with words. That direct experience is the only kind that truly matters. That making images would dis-serve 'God'.

Great. So why did God create the material world?