The Cosmos

[sealybobo]

Before any of the three main organized religions we have today, best thing we had going for us was our intelligence, especially our gift for pattern recognition, sharpened over eons of evolution.
The ones who were good at spotting prey and predator, telling poisonous plants from the nourishing ones, they had a better chance to live and reproduce. They survived and passed on those genes for pattern recognition with its obvious advantages. Cultures all over the planet looked up at the same stars and found different pictures there.
We used this gift for recognizing patterns in nature to read the calendar in the sky. The messages written in the stars told our forefathers and mothers when to camp and when to move on. When the migratory herds and when the rains and the cold would come.

When they observed the direct connection between the motions of the stars and the seasonal cycles of life on Earth, they concluded, naturally, that what happens up there must be directed at us down here. It makes sense, right? And so, when the heavenly order was suddenly violated by the apparition of a comet in the sky they took it personally. Can we really blame them? Back then, they had no other logical explanation for what was happening. This was long before anyone had yet to imagine Earth as a spinning planet with a tilted axis, revolving around the Sun. So don't tell me I'm arrogant to question our ancient primitive ancestors when they tell me a story that doesn't make sense.

We hunger for significance, for signs that our personal existence is of special meaning to the universe.
To that end, we're all too eager to deceive ourselves and others, to discern a sacred image in a grilled cheese sandwich or find a divine warning in a comet.
Today, we know exactly where comets come from and what they're made of.

Why didn't god come lay down scripture 20,000 or 40,000 years ago? He did. There were other organized religions long before Chistianity. They were made up and after awhile lost credibility with the people. Same thing happening with Christianity today. Why? Because people in the West are free to think and when you are free to think you get smarter and you question authority and stories that can't be true. Muslims don't question because they are not allowed. The government in Iran is both a religion and a state. Same thing we were in the 1500's. That's why our Christian churches burned and crucified free thinkers back then.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Anyone who believes in God needs to watch the Cosmos. Watch the new one with Neil Degrasse Tyson and the old one with Carl Sagan. Once you learn the history of man, science and religion you will realize god(s) were made up long before we decided to just go with one god. Religious ignorance has held us back thousands of years. Religious people love to brag that it was on their watch that we came up with cures and that it was religious people who got us on the moon. They expose their ignorance to the fact that many of the scientists were/are atheists. They try to ignore the history of how many scientists were put to death for heresy by the churches for things that turned out to be correct. But today the church doesn't get so upset if you suggest the earth isn't the center of the universe or that the sun revolves around the earth because churches change with the times. They've learned not to fight science and instead ignore your anti scientific history and embrace science. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

300 years before Christ, Aristarchus of Samos discovered the earth was not the center of the universe. But it wasn't until the year 1500 of our lord that someone dared suggest it again. Who squashed this fact for 1800 years? Religion.

Think about instead of the 50 year cold war and all the other wars we fought if we would have put the time and energy into colonizing Mars. Take all the nukes we have built since the 1950's and tell me how much money that is. Human beings are stupid. One way to tell how dumb someone is, ask them if they believe in god.

Dumb? No. Superstitious and easily manipulated? Yes. Not all believers are dumb. You are coming across as dumb here for using conflation, correlations, and correctness...

 

[sealybobo]

Wait a minute. You come tell me a story that is unbelievable and has to be taken on faith that you swallowed from a clearly corrupt society/church and you're saying we're being arrogant for wanting more proof?

If I proved to you beyond any doubt whatsoever that every word of the Bible is true, would it make any difference in your life? Would you be any more inclined to accept His Lordship? If not, there's no point in proving anything to you.

Maybe the poor and stupid in Europe swallowed those stories 2000 years ago to date but I think man has gotten too smart for your organized religion. Time to come up with a new one.

P.S. Did you know some of Jesus' disciples were sure the end was coming in their life time? 2000 years later...Stop waiting. Lets get off this planet. Less bombs more space ships and stop polluting the planet.

Of course they were prepared for that eventuality, silly person. Jesus told them straight up to be ready at all times. That's obvious to even the lightest of Biblical scholars.

Of course it would make a huge difference if I believed the bible, koran or old testament. Now would I be a Martin Luther type and beat myself and sleep in the snow in order to be closer with Jesus who suffered on the cross? Probably not. Most Christians aren't that extreme. But would I go to church once a week and truly believe Jesus was the Messiah? Of course I would. Hell, I might even devote my life to it.

Or if I were a Muslim, would I pray 5 times a day? Yes I would. If I believed in god.

But I don't believe. And what does it matter? Your religion says I'll go to hell, Muslims say I should be put to death. In fact in the late 1500's your church would have killed me too.

Knowing this history of your religion and every other religion, it is impossible for me to believe the books your church hands me. If you aren't Catholic your church spawned from them. Do you even know the hsitory of the Catholic Church? Even if I believed in god I wouldn't believe he liked the Catholic Church. That means every Christian is swallowing a lie no matter if you are a Lutheran, Protestant, Baptist. The entire premise is made up.

Dude, again you reveal ignorance. Have you ever heard of the Reformation? Since you obviously have not, I'll help you. The Dark Ages weren't just dark for science and society, they were dark for the Church. The Catholic Church became impossibly corrupt and apostate. The Reformation was sparked by Catholic priests who looked at what was going on, compared it to Scripture and realized the two were completely at odds. Many of them paid the ultimate price for their efforts to reform the Church.

Just look at all the Jews who saw Jewish Jesus do miracles. Hardly any of them converted. The early history you think is real is all a lie. There weren't thousands of witnesses that saw Jesus do miracles and they told their kids and that is the early start to Christianity. Not at all.

This is why there would be no point to God coming down to earth in front of you and doing all kinds of miracles. When you refuse to believe, you will refuse to believe even the hardest of proof.

They say thousands witnessed Jesus but the Christian religion was started by 11 guys 60 years after the fact in Greece.

You're just making it all up as you go along, aren't you?

Paul or one of the desciples went to Greece and told those stupid illiterate Greeks an amazing story and they bought it. All I have to think about is my uneducated Greek grandmother when she told me the stories in the bible. This woman had a 3rd grade education and she was so superstitious and gullible.

Paul wasn't a disciple, BTW. In fact, he was a Pharisee who hunted down Christians in the early church to imprison them, so you have a problem. He couldn't have started the church if he was trying to stop it before he was converted.

When I credit "the Greeks" for things like math and philosophy and astronomy, realize I'm only crediting a small number of people. The masses like in every other society are sheep and dumb. Consider if not for a few guys like Bruno, Einstein and Newton, Oort, Hailey, Michael Faraday,we'd still be living in the stone ages.

I'm sure you believe that falsehood. Here's a hint. The Dark Ages are over, and have been for a long time.

[qoute]Every Christian needs to watch the Cosmos. Once you know the history of religion maybe you won't be so sure about your one little religion.

Again, religion and a relationship with a living God are not the same things. I don't expect you to understand it, because you can't.

Consider this. Put the history of the universe on a 12 month calendar. If the universe is 13.5 billion years old, all recorded human history is but the last 40 seconds on the last day of the year. We didn't know shit until we invented the microscope. And we are just now starting to figure everything out, no thanks to religions. To say "must be god" or "god did it" is a cop out. That's what people say when they don't know the answers. Better to say you don't know and keep looking.

Also better to admit you're working from a false premise when you insist before looking that you cannot ever be allowed to discover something greater than yourself.

It is you guys who can't see something greater than yourselves. In the Cosmos they explain that there comes a day in every persons life that they realize the world doesn't revolve around them. But this isn't true for Christians. They/You are so arrogant and ignorant to think you are special.

Oh, brother. Again with the TV show. You do know you're treating it like the Bible, right? The Christian in relationship with God understands that the only thing that makes him/her special is that God cares about him/her, nothing within themselves.

And at least you admit that at one point your church was corrupted. That's a step in the right direction. Maybe one day you'll realize every religion was made up. Your religion is no different.

It wasn't "my church". It wasn't even much of a Church at all. The true Church split off from it, realizing there was no way to continue in it and be true to Scripture.

Sorry I don't know about the Reformation. That's a term used by your religion to explain away it's flaws and corruption.

Explain away? Hardly. Identify flaws and corruption and eliminate them? Absolutely. That's still going on, BTW. Christians do not like the "prosperity Gospel" preachers on TV today because they're preaching against what Christ taught.

Watch the Cosmos and you'll learn more of the history of guys like Martin Luther who was a nut job. He beat himself until bloody to be closer with Jesus. He slept in the snow until he almost died.

That was far from uncommon in his day. Remember, he was a Catholic priest, steeped from childhood in the idea that you have to do penance for sin.

He thought the second coming would happen in his lifetime.

Jesus told His followers to live every day like He was coming at any moment.

The other monks thought he was crazy. They were right. And he helped kill Bruno for saying the earth was not the center of the universe.

Again, what part of the Catholic Church of that time being apostate do you not understand? Here's a quote from Luther that may help you understand how a person can be changed:

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."

You do admire those who question authority, correct?

The universe is greater than myself. I am nothing but one animal on one planet in one solar system in one galaxy in our universe.

Of course. Quite a playground God created.

When Isaac Newton was born in this house in 1642, the world was very different.
Everyone looked at the perfection of the clockwork motions of the planets in the sky and could only understand it as the work of a master clock maker. How else to explain it? There was only one way such a thing could come about in their imagination; only one answer for them-- God.
For reasons beyond our understanding, God just created the solar system that way. But this explanation is the closing of a door. It doesn't lead to other questions. Along came Newton, a God-loving man who's also a genius. He could write the laws of nature in perfect mathematical sentences-- formulas that applied universally to apples, moons, planets and so much more. With one foot still in the Middle Ages, Isaac Newton imagined the whole solar system. Newton's laws of gravity and motion revealed how the Sun held distant worlds captive.
His laws swept away the need for a master clock maker to explain the precision and beauty of the solar system.

Gravity is the clock maker.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

but sealybobo I do agree with some of your best intentions.

 

[Dajjal]

Gravity could be just one of the forces conceived of by God and set into motion after the big bang.

 

[sealybobo]

Anyone who believes in God needs to watch the Cosmos. Watch the new one with Neil Degrasse Tyson and the old one with Carl Sagan. Once you learn the history of man, science and religion you will realize god(s) were made up long before we decided to just go with one god. Religious ignorance has held us back thousands of years. Religious people love to brag that it was on their watch that we came up with cures and that it was religious people who got us on the moon. They expose their ignorance to the fact that many of the scientists were/are atheists. They try to ignore the history of how many scientists were put to death for heresy by the churches for things that turned out to be correct. But today the church doesn't get so upset if you suggest the earth isn't the center of the universe or that the sun revolves around the earth because churches change with the times. They've learned not to fight science and instead ignore your anti scientific history and embrace science. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

300 years before Christ, Aristarchus of Samos discovered the earth was not the center of the universe. But it wasn't until the year 1500 of our lord that someone dared suggest it again. Who squashed this fact for 1800 years? Religion.

Think about instead of the 50 year cold war and all the other wars we fought if we would have put the time and energy into colonizing Mars. Take all the nukes we have built since the 1950's and tell me how much money that is. Human beings are stupid. One way to tell how dumb someone is, ask them if they believe in god.

Dumb? No. Superstitious and easily manipulated? Yes. Not all believers are dumb. You are coming across as dumb here for using conflation, correlations, and correctness...

The nearest star to the Sun, Proxima Centauri, is a little more than four light-years away from Earth.
How far away is four light-years? NASA's Voyager spacecraft moves at more than 56,000 kilometers an hour.
Even at that astonishing speed, it would take Voyager more than 80,000 years to reach the nearest star.
And the stars of the Pleiades cluster, 400 light-years away.

 

[sealybobo]

but sealybobo I do agree with some of your best intentions.

I know. Theists get me off topic and argumentative. They suck me into arguing their points and basically control the conversation. Next thing you know I'm debating scripture.

Are there some good messages in the bible? Sure. Otherwise it wouldn't be considered the greatest story/lie ever told.

 

[hadit]

If I proved to you beyond any doubt whatsoever that every word of the Bible is true, would it make any difference in your life? Would you be any more inclined to accept His Lordship? If not, there's no point in proving anything to you.

Of course they were prepared for that eventuality, silly person. Jesus told them straight up to be ready at all times. That's obvious to even the lightest of Biblical scholars.

Of course it would make a huge difference if I believed the bible, koran or old testament. Now would I be a Martin Luther type and beat myself and sleep in the snow in order to be closer with Jesus who suffered on the cross? Probably not. Most Christians aren't that extreme. But would I go to church once a week and truly believe Jesus was the Messiah? Of course I would. Hell, I might even devote my life to it.

Or if I were a Muslim, would I pray 5 times a day? Yes I would. If I believed in god.

But I don't believe. And what does it matter? Your religion says I'll go to hell, Muslims say I should be put to death. In fact in the late 1500's your church would have killed me too.

Knowing this history of your religion and every other religion, it is impossible for me to believe the books your church hands me. If you aren't Catholic your church spawned from them. Do you even know the hsitory of the Catholic Church? Even if I believed in god I wouldn't believe he liked the Catholic Church. That means every Christian is swallowing a lie no matter if you are a Lutheran, Protestant, Baptist. The entire premise is made up.

Dude, again you reveal ignorance. Have you ever heard of the Reformation? Since you obviously have not, I'll help you. The Dark Ages weren't just dark for science and society, they were dark for the Church. The Catholic Church became impossibly corrupt and apostate. The Reformation was sparked by Catholic priests who looked at what was going on, compared it to Scripture and realized the two were completely at odds. Many of them paid the ultimate price for their efforts to reform the Church.

Just look at all the Jews who saw Jewish Jesus do miracles. Hardly any of them converted. The early history you think is real is all a lie. There weren't thousands of witnesses that saw Jesus do miracles and they told their kids and that is the early start to Christianity. Not at all.

This is why there would be no point to God coming down to earth in front of you and doing all kinds of miracles. When you refuse to believe, you will refuse to believe even the hardest of proof.

They say thousands witnessed Jesus but the Christian religion was started by 11 guys 60 years after the fact in Greece.

You're just making it all up as you go along, aren't you?

Paul or one of the desciples went to Greece and told those stupid illiterate Greeks an amazing story and they bought it. All I have to think about is my uneducated Greek grandmother when she told me the stories in the bible. This woman had a 3rd grade education and she was so superstitious and gullible.

Paul wasn't a disciple, BTW. In fact, he was a Pharisee who hunted down Christians in the early church to imprison them, so you have a problem. He couldn't have started the church if he was trying to stop it before he was converted.

When I credit "the Greeks" for things like math and philosophy and astronomy, realize I'm only crediting a small number of people. The masses like in every other society are sheep and dumb. Consider if not for a few guys like Bruno, Einstein and Newton, Oort, Hailey, Michael Faraday,we'd still be living in the stone ages.

I'm sure you believe that falsehood. Here's a hint. The Dark Ages are over, and have been for a long time.

[qoute]Every Christian needs to watch the Cosmos. Once you know the history of religion maybe you won't be so sure about your one little religion.

Again, religion and a relationship with a living God are not the same things. I don't expect you to understand it, because you can't.

Consider this. Put the history of the universe on a 12 month calendar. If the universe is 13.5 billion years old, all recorded human history is but the last 40 seconds on the last day of the year. We didn't know shit until we invented the microscope. And we are just now starting to figure everything out, no thanks to religions. To say "must be god" or "god did it" is a cop out. That's what people say when they don't know the answers. Better to say you don't know and keep looking.

Also better to admit you're working from a false premise when you insist before looking that you cannot ever be allowed to discover something greater than yourself.

It is you guys who can't see something greater than yourselves. In the Cosmos they explain that there comes a day in every persons life that they realize the world doesn't revolve around them. But this isn't true for Christians. They/You are so arrogant and ignorant to think you are special.

Oh, brother. Again with the TV show. You do know you're treating it like the Bible, right? The Christian in relationship with God understands that the only thing that makes him/her special is that God cares about him/her, nothing within themselves.

And at least you admit that at one point your church was corrupted. That's a step in the right direction. Maybe one day you'll realize every religion was made up. Your religion is no different.

It wasn't "my church". It wasn't even much of a Church at all. The true Church split off from it, realizing there was no way to continue in it and be true to Scripture.

Sorry I don't know about the Reformation. That's a term used by your religion to explain away it's flaws and corruption.

Explain away? Hardly. Identify flaws and corruption and eliminate them? Absolutely. That's still going on, BTW. Christians do not like the "prosperity Gospel" preachers on TV today because they're preaching against what Christ taught.

Watch the Cosmos and you'll learn more of the history of guys like Martin Luther who was a nut job. He beat himself until bloody to be closer with Jesus. He slept in the snow until he almost died.

That was far from uncommon in his day. Remember, he was a Catholic priest, steeped from childhood in the idea that you have to do penance for sin.

He thought the second coming would happen in his lifetime.

Jesus told His followers to live every day like He was coming at any moment.

The other monks thought he was crazy. They were right. And he helped kill Bruno for saying the earth was not the center of the universe.

Again, what part of the Catholic Church of that time being apostate do you not understand? Here's a quote from Luther that may help you understand how a person can be changed:

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."

You do admire those who question authority, correct?

The universe is greater than myself. I am nothing but one animal on one planet in one solar system in one galaxy in our universe.

Of course. Quite a playground God created.

When Isaac Newton was born in this house in 1642, the world was very different.
Everyone looked at the perfection of the clockwork motions of the planets in the sky and could only understand it as the work of a master clock maker. How else to explain it? There was only one way such a thing could come about in their imagination; only one answer for them-- God.
For reasons beyond our understanding, God just created the solar system that way. But this explanation is the closing of a door. It doesn't lead to other questions. Along came Newton, a God-loving man who's also a genius. He could write the laws of nature in perfect mathematical sentences-- formulas that applied universally to apples, moons, planets and so much more. With one foot still in the Middle Ages, Isaac Newton imagined the whole solar system. Newton's laws of gravity and motion revealed how the Sun held distant worlds captive.
His laws swept away the need for a master clock maker to explain the precision and beauty of the solar system.

Gravity is the clock maker.

God designed a perfectly balanced system that is discoverable, with elegant mathematics to describe the whole thing. Beyond genius.

 

[hadit]

but sealybobo I do agree with some of your best intentions.

I know. Theists get me off topic and argumentative. They suck me into arguing their points and basically control the conversation. Next thing you know I'm debating scripture.

Are there some good messages in the bible? Sure. Otherwise it wouldn't be considered the greatest story/lie ever told.

So how do you argue theology without Scripture? If you want to talk science, go for it. Science is fascinating. That's not what you want, however. You want to argue theology without theological arguments. Can't be done.

 

[sealybobo]

Of course it would make a huge difference if I believed the bible, koran or old testament. Now would I be a Martin Luther type and beat myself and sleep in the snow in order to be closer with Jesus who suffered on the cross? Probably not. Most Christians aren't that extreme. But would I go to church once a week and truly believe Jesus was the Messiah? Of course I would. Hell, I might even devote my life to it.

Or if I were a Muslim, would I pray 5 times a day? Yes I would. If I believed in god.

But I don't believe. And what does it matter? Your religion says I'll go to hell, Muslims say I should be put to death. In fact in the late 1500's your church would have killed me too.

Knowing this history of your religion and every other religion, it is impossible for me to believe the books your church hands me. If you aren't Catholic your church spawned from them. Do you even know the hsitory of the Catholic Church? Even if I believed in god I wouldn't believe he liked the Catholic Church. That means every Christian is swallowing a lie no matter if you are a Lutheran, Protestant, Baptist. The entire premise is made up.

Dude, again you reveal ignorance. Have you ever heard of the Reformation? Since you obviously have not, I'll help you. The Dark Ages weren't just dark for science and society, they were dark for the Church. The Catholic Church became impossibly corrupt and apostate. The Reformation was sparked by Catholic priests who looked at what was going on, compared it to Scripture and realized the two were completely at odds. Many of them paid the ultimate price for their efforts to reform the Church.

Just look at all the Jews who saw Jewish Jesus do miracles. Hardly any of them converted. The early history you think is real is all a lie. There weren't thousands of witnesses that saw Jesus do miracles and they told their kids and that is the early start to Christianity. Not at all.

This is why there would be no point to God coming down to earth in front of you and doing all kinds of miracles. When you refuse to believe, you will refuse to believe even the hardest of proof.

They say thousands witnessed Jesus but the Christian religion was started by 11 guys 60 years after the fact in Greece.

You're just making it all up as you go along, aren't you?

Paul or one of the desciples went to Greece and told those stupid illiterate Greeks an amazing story and they bought it. All I have to think about is my uneducated Greek grandmother when she told me the stories in the bible. This woman had a 3rd grade education and she was so superstitious and gullible.

Paul wasn't a disciple, BTW. In fact, he was a Pharisee who hunted down Christians in the early church to imprison them, so you have a problem. He couldn't have started the church if he was trying to stop it before he was converted.

When I credit "the Greeks" for things like math and philosophy and astronomy, realize I'm only crediting a small number of people. The masses like in every other society are sheep and dumb. Consider if not for a few guys like Bruno, Einstein and Newton, Oort, Hailey, Michael Faraday,we'd still be living in the stone ages.

I'm sure you believe that falsehood. Here's a hint. The Dark Ages are over, and have been for a long time.

[qoute]Every Christian needs to watch the Cosmos. Once you know the history of religion maybe you won't be so sure about your one little religion.

Again, religion and a relationship with a living God are not the same things. I don't expect you to understand it, because you can't.

Consider this. Put the history of the universe on a 12 month calendar. If the universe is 13.5 billion years old, all recorded human history is but the last 40 seconds on the last day of the year. We didn't know shit until we invented the microscope. And we are just now starting to figure everything out, no thanks to religions. To say "must be god" or "god did it" is a cop out. That's what people say when they don't know the answers. Better to say you don't know and keep looking.

Also better to admit you're working from a false premise when you insist before looking that you cannot ever be allowed to discover something greater than yourself.

It is you guys who can't see something greater than yourselves. In the Cosmos they explain that there comes a day in every persons life that they realize the world doesn't revolve around them. But this isn't true for Christians. They/You are so arrogant and ignorant to think you are special.

Oh, brother. Again with the TV show. You do know you're treating it like the Bible, right? The Christian in relationship with God understands that the only thing that makes him/her special is that God cares about him/her, nothing within themselves.

And at least you admit that at one point your church was corrupted. That's a step in the right direction. Maybe one day you'll realize every religion was made up. Your religion is no different.

It wasn't "my church". It wasn't even much of a Church at all. The true Church split off from it, realizing there was no way to continue in it and be true to Scripture.

Sorry I don't know about the Reformation. That's a term used by your religion to explain away it's flaws and corruption.

Explain away? Hardly. Identify flaws and corruption and eliminate them? Absolutely. That's still going on, BTW. Christians do not like the "prosperity Gospel" preachers on TV today because they're preaching against what Christ taught.

Watch the Cosmos and you'll learn more of the history of guys like Martin Luther who was a nut job. He beat himself until bloody to be closer with Jesus. He slept in the snow until he almost died.

That was far from uncommon in his day. Remember, he was a Catholic priest, steeped from childhood in the idea that you have to do penance for sin.

He thought the second coming would happen in his lifetime.

Jesus told His followers to live every day like He was coming at any moment.

The other monks thought he was crazy. They were right. And he helped kill Bruno for saying the earth was not the center of the universe.

Again, what part of the Catholic Church of that time being apostate do you not understand? Here's a quote from Luther that may help you understand how a person can be changed:

"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen."

You do admire those who question authority, correct?

The universe is greater than myself. I am nothing but one animal on one planet in one solar system in one galaxy in our universe.

Of course. Quite a playground God created.

When Isaac Newton was born in this house in 1642, the world was very different.
Everyone looked at the perfection of the clockwork motions of the planets in the sky and could only understand it as the work of a master clock maker. How else to explain it? There was only one way such a thing could come about in their imagination; only one answer for them-- God.
For reasons beyond our understanding, God just created the solar system that way. But this explanation is the closing of a door. It doesn't lead to other questions. Along came Newton, a God-loving man who's also a genius. He could write the laws of nature in perfect mathematical sentences-- formulas that applied universally to apples, moons, planets and so much more. With one foot still in the Middle Ages, Isaac Newton imagined the whole solar system. Newton's laws of gravity and motion revealed how the Sun held distant worlds captive.
His laws swept away the need for a master clock maker to explain the precision and beauty of the solar system.

Gravity is the clock maker.

God designed a perfectly balanced system that is discoverable, with elegant mathematics to describe the whole thing. Beyond genius.

Why do you think a "god" did it?

 

[sealybobo]

Gravity could be just one of the forces conceived of by God and set into motion after the big bang.

Of course if a god/creator exists then gravity is his doing. Just curious what evidence you have for this creator fellow. I'm assuming you believe a creator created all this because you can't imagine any other way. Or a religion told you a creator exists. But remember how often they are wrong. Remember they said the earth was only 6500 years old?

The Crab Nebula is about 6,500 light-years from Earth. According to some beliefs, that's the age of the whole universe. But if the universe were only 6,500 years old, how could we see the light from anything more distant than the Crab Nebula?

The light we see coming from the Sombrero Galaxy is 30 million years old.
Our ancestors were living in trees when that light started out.
They weighed about five kilos and had long tails.
But even 30 million light-years away is still in our own cosmic backyard.
That galaxy is part of the Coma Cluster, 320 million light-years away.
What was going on back home when the light you are seeing began its trip to Earth? No familiar continents, oceans or rivers.
Our distant ancestors were just leaving the water for the land.
That's pretty old light, but not nearly the oldest light we can see.
The oldest light is very faint, a pale ghost in the night.
13.4-billion year-old starlight as captured by the Hubble space telescope.
It's coming from the very first generation of stars.
What was happening on Earth back then? Absolutely nothing.
There was no Earth, no Sun, no Milky Way.
They would not come to be for billions of years.

 

[Dajjal]

Gravity could be just one of the forces conceived of by God and set into motion after the big bang.

Of course if a god/creator exists then gravity is his doing. Just curious what evidence you have for this creator fellow. I'm assuming you believe a creator created all this because you can't imagine any other way. Or a religion told you a creator exists. But remember how often they are wrong. Remember they said the earth was only 6500 years old?

Although I am not certain of anything, I do have a theology built up largely from years of attending trance lectures at the spiritualist association in London. Mediums were purportedly taken in trance by discarnate spirits who then gave lectures. One such medium was the late Ursula Roberts. (see my thread spiritual teachings)

The spirits teach that there is a God in the highest plane of existence and he created many lower realms for life to evolve in. There is a spirit world that we inhabit between incarnations. I have to take most of it on trust, but I have had some personal evidence of the existence of the spirit world myself. I have occasionally received telepathic messages from them.

I accept most of what you say about what science teaches, for example I used to collect fossils, so I am certain of evolution. You only have to go to a cliff face and dig into it to find the fossil layers.

 

[sealybobo]

In China, more than 2,000 years ago, a philosopher named Mo Tze. was a great scientist. He was one of the first to dream of universal love and an end to poverty and other forms of inequality; of government for the people and to argue against blind obedience to ritual and authority.

His philosophy was if someone told you something you should question the basis of their argument. For example, someone tells me that Jesus was god and did miracles. Question its basis-- ask if it can be verified by the sights and senses of common people-- ask how it is to be applied and if it will benefit the greatest number.

Mo Tze was extremely popular, but a few hundred years after his death, Qin Shi Huang, the first emperor, and unifier of China, took power.
Emperor Qin's drive to consolidate his empire included what you were allowed to write and think.
Emperor Qin's philosophy-- the only one permitted-- was called "legalism," which is just what it sounded like, do as the law says or else.
It's a philosophy that's not highly conducive to questioning authority.
He said all the books of the hundred schools of thought shall be be burned, that anyone who uses history to criticize the present shall have his family executed. The works of MoTze and Confucius and other philosophers were destroyed in the world's first book burning. Hundreds of scholars bravely resisted by trying to preserve the forbidden books. They were buried alive in the capitol. Science needs the light of free expression to flourish.
It depends on the fearless questioning of authority, the open exchange of ideas.
Sparks of curiosity in the writings of Mo Tze and his disciples were effectively stomped out.

 

[sealybobo]

but sealybobo I do agree with some of your best intentions.

I know. Theists get me off topic and argumentative. They suck me into arguing their points and basically control the conversation. Next thing you know I'm debating scripture.

Are there some good messages in the bible? Sure. Otherwise it wouldn't be considered the greatest story/lie ever told.

So how do you argue theology without Scripture? If you want to talk science, go for it. Science is fascinating. That's not what you want, however. You want to argue theology without theological arguments. Can't be done.

What I would do is go find you a previous religion that wrote the same thing to show you that your religion isn't even original. But I've already done that and it doesn't seem to matter. People who want to believe in god are going to believe in god. I can see that now. No proof necessary. So all I can do is plant the seed that maybe, perhaps the entire concept of god is made up and completely unnecessary. Not only that it can be bad for you. For example, lots of Christians worry/stress about hell. Or, if you give 10% of your income to a bogus religion. Or if you agree to go to war with Muslims because the leaders of your society want to. Or if you vote against things like stem cell, gay marriage or abortion.

I know lots of smart people believe in god but that's just cognitive dissonance. The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

In psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time, or is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values.[1][2]

Humans strive for internal consistency. When inconsistency (dissonance) is experienced, individuals tend to become psychologically uncomfortable and they are motivated to attempt to reduce this dissonance, as well as actively avoiding situations and information which are likely to increase it

 

[sealybobo]

Ibn al-Hazen had a passionate desire to understand nature.
He questioned everything, especially those things that everyone else took for granted.

Some of the great authorities who came before him had taught that rays come out of our eyes and travel to the objects we see before returning to our eyes.
But al-Hazen reasoned that the stars were too far distant for something in our eyes to travel all the way to them and back in the blink of an eye.
His culture was open to new ideas and questioning. It was the golden age of science in the Islamic world.
One that stretched from Cordoba in Spain all the way to Samarkand in Central Asia.
Instead of burning books, the caliphs sent emissaries around the world in search of books.
The caliphs lavishly funded projects to translate, study, and preserve them for future generations.
Much of the light of Ancient Greek science would have been permanently extinguished without their efforts.
The reawakening to science that took place in Europe, hundreds of years later, was kindled by a flame that had been long tended by Islamic scholars and scientists.

Finding truth is difficult and the road to it is rough.
As seekers after truth, you will be wise to withhold judgment and not simply put your trust in the writings of the ancients.
You must question and critically examine those writings from every side.
You must submit only to argument and experiment and not to the sayings of any person.
For every human being is vulnerable to all kinds of imperfection.
As seekers after truth, we must also suspect and question our own ideas as we perform our investigations, to avoid falling into prejudice or careless thinking.
Take this course, and truth will be revealed to you.
This is the method of science.
So powerful that it's carried our robotic emissaries to the edge of the solar system and beyond.
It has doubled our lifespan, made the lost worlds of the past come alive.
Science has enabled us to predict events in the distant future and to communicate with each other at the speed of light, as I am with you, right at this moment.

 

[sealybobo]

I have a relative who has a kid with slight autism. I don't think that is any kind of life. Not for the kid and not for her. I would have late term aborted if I knew my kid was going to come out like that. And if you would let us do stem cell research maybe we could prevent this from happening in the future. But for you we will make sure your kids have it because you think it is sweet, cute and adorable. You can continue to think that when the kid is in his 20's if he lives that long. And worry about what the hell is going to happen to it after you die if it out lives you. I'm a Spartan. I'd throw it in the pit if I could. No seriously I'd give it a lethal shot at birth if the law allowed.

And I don't want to get off topic with you on how you think we need religion to have morality. Religion is a great way for bad people to feel good about themselves. Not necessary. I don't murder people because I don't want to go to jail and because I wouldn't want someone to murder someone I care about. I have empathy. No god needed.

P.S. If I had a Down Syndrom baby, no one would love the little bastard more than I would. BUT, I have to admit, if I knew ahead of time I would put it out of it's misery and mine. Because raising that kid would be horrible. I know you would get use to it and you would love it but fuck that. Same way I wouldn't put my mother down right now even though she's going through Alzheimers. I know that the old her would want to be dead rather than to be living the way she is right now. I would too. Who wants to live like that? What kind of life is that? Plus the stress on my dad and his pocket book if he ever has to put her in a home. Euthenasia should be legal in all 50 states, not just a few of them. Same way Gordy Howe had to fly to California to get good stem cell help because it is illegal in Michigan. Why? Because of God who does not even exist?

I don't know what rock you've been under, but no one has stopped or prevented stem cell research, at least the research that doesn't involve killing something first. It's going fine, and in fact has produced several useful treatments. Nice to know your logic is kicking in a little bit there, wanting to put down the less fortunate and all. Can't have them inconveniencing anyone, after all. Just take them out to the barn and shoot 'em. Be better for everyone. Nice and logical.

You're dumb. Gordy Howe has the $ to fly to California to get stem cell research that works. What about all the people who don't have the $ to fly to Cali? Your foolish religious beliefs have held mankind back for thousands of years. Time for it to end.

Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.
Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so. Test ideas, by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well designed test, it's wrong. Get over it. Follow the evidence, were ever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.
And perhaps even the most important rule of all, remember you could be wrong. Even the best scientist have been wrong about something. Newton, Einstein, and ever other great scientist in history. They all made mistakes. Of course they did, their were human. Science is a way keep from fooling ourselves and each other.

Of course, your "well designed test" relies on the arrogant presumption that you can design a test that cannot be ignored by a superior being. Can an ant design a test to prove the existence of scientists in a lab if the scientists decide when, if, and how to enter the ants' existence? No.

God told me to tell you to stop global warming. Don't ask for proof. Take it on faith.

Cool. Let's just apply a little Biblical discipline to that statement. Did you not know that Christians are to evaluate everything they are told is from God against the Scriptures? Apparently not, because you just made a really stupid statement.

PS. Did you know you and the ant are related?

As are you.

They need to question the scripture too.

 

[hadit]

I don't know what rock you've been under, but no one has stopped or prevented stem cell research, at least the research that doesn't involve killing something first. It's going fine, and in fact has produced several useful treatments. Nice to know your logic is kicking in a little bit there, wanting to put down the less fortunate and all. Can't have them inconveniencing anyone, after all. Just take them out to the barn and shoot 'em. Be better for everyone. Nice and logical.

You're dumb. Gordy Howe has the $ to fly to California to get stem cell research that works. What about all the people who don't have the $ to fly to Cali? Your foolish religious beliefs have held mankind back for thousands of years. Time for it to end.

Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.
Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so. Test ideas, by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well designed test, it's wrong. Get over it. Follow the evidence, were ever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.
And perhaps even the most important rule of all, remember you could be wrong. Even the best scientist have been wrong about something. Newton, Einstein, and ever other great scientist in history. They all made mistakes. Of course they did, their were human. Science is a way keep from fooling ourselves and each other.

Of course, your "well designed test" relies on the arrogant presumption that you can design a test that cannot be ignored by a superior being. Can an ant design a test to prove the existence of scientists in a lab if the scientists decide when, if, and how to enter the ants' existence? No.

God told me to tell you to stop global warming. Don't ask for proof. Take it on faith.

Cool. Let's just apply a little Biblical discipline to that statement. Did you not know that Christians are to evaluate everything they are told is from God against the Scriptures? Apparently not, because you just made a really stupid statement.

PS. Did you know you and the ant are related?

As are you.

They need to question the scripture too.

And when it's revealed to detail the way to be reconciled with God, accept and believe it.

 

[sealybobo]

If god(s) existence were obvious the greatest minds in the world wouldn't question it.

Why not more than one god? That's what we thought for hundreds of thousands of years before we finally settled on the 1 god concept. What evidence did we use to decide there is only 1 god?

If you were born back in ancient Greece you'd believe in multiple gods. Would you be right? Multiple gods seemed obvious to them. You could look up in the sky and see millions of gods (stars). Little did they know those were just other suns and they are so far away we just can't see that life is all over the universe. So instead superstitious/ignorant/primitive man decided we were all there was. Special. And the sun and cosmos revolved around us. We were wrong again.

Doesn't seem to matter how much we are wrong about god. Still doesn't prove god doesn't exist, right? But tell us this. Why is he hiding? And please don't use any of the stuff you read in the bible. If you do, also show me what every other 999 former and prior religions say. Doesn't matter what they say because they didn't use science to figure it out. If they did, show me the science.

God existence is obvious to the very best minds ever born, minds that constantly seek for absolute truth.

You're blind.

They can't be the best minds if they believe in god.

1. Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me. Think for yourself.
   
   
2. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so.
   
   
3. Test ideas, by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well designed test, it's wrong. Get over it.
   
   
4. Follow the evidence, wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.
   
   
5. And perhaps even the most important rule of all: remember you could be wrong. Even the best scientist have been wrong about somethings. Newton, Einstein, and ever other great scientist in history. They all made mistakes. Of course they did, their were human. Science is a way keep from fooling ourselves and each other.

I'll remain open to the possibility that a god or gods exist and created us. I haven't seen enough evidence to believe. I have seen enough evidence however to be very skeptical, especially of anyone who belongs to an organized religion. It is obvious to me Jesus, Moses, Mohammad, Abraham, Noah, Adam & Eve and Joseph Smith of the Mormons don't pass the test.

LoL you are blind.

How? Explain it to me? But remember if you quote the bible or koran I'm going to use this

(1) Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so.

(2) Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so.

(3) Test ideas by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well-designed test, it's wrong. Get over it.

(4) Follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.

And perhaps the most important rule of all...

(5) Remember: you could be wrong. Even the best scientists have been wrong about some things. Newton, Einstein, and every other great scientist in history -- they all made mistakes. Of course they did. They were human.

Science is a way to keep from fooling ourselves, and each other.

Live with what you think. You should be able to, in time, find the truth that God exists, if you are sincere.

You can also know after you die. You will find out if what I tell you is true.

Remember what things were like for you the 13.5 billion years before you were born? That's what it'll be like for 13.5 billion years after you die.

You're dumb. Gordy Howe has the $ to fly to California to get stem cell research that works. What about all the people who don't have the $ to fly to Cali? Your foolish religious beliefs have held mankind back for thousands of years. Time for it to end.

Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me.
Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so. Test ideas, by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well designed test, it's wrong. Get over it. Follow the evidence, were ever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.
And perhaps even the most important rule of all, remember you could be wrong. Even the best scientist have been wrong about something. Newton, Einstein, and ever other great scientist in history. They all made mistakes. Of course they did, their were human. Science is a way keep from fooling ourselves and each other.

Of course, your "well designed test" relies on the arrogant presumption that you can design a test that cannot be ignored by a superior being. Can an ant design a test to prove the existence of scientists in a lab if the scientists decide when, if, and how to enter the ants' existence? No.

God told me to tell you to stop global warming. Don't ask for proof. Take it on faith.

Cool. Let's just apply a little Biblical discipline to that statement. Did you not know that Christians are to evaluate everything they are told is from God against the Scriptures? Apparently not, because you just made a really stupid statement.

PS. Did you know you and the ant are related?

As are you.

They need to question the scripture too.

And when it's revealed to detail the way to be reconciled with God, accept and believe it.

What scripture are you referring to?

Religious texts, also known as scripture, scriptures, holy writ, or holy books, are the texts which various religious traditions consider to be sacred, or central to their religious tradition. Many religions and spiritual movements believe that their sacred texts are divinely or supernaturally revealed or inspired.

Notice the words various and many? You aren't the first or last religion. Oh but your's is the 1 out of 999 that came before or after your religion that was real? If man made up god 200,000 or 40,000 years ago, why did he wait until 6500 years ago to talk to us? Science doesn't mean to but it pokes holes in every aspect of your religion(s). Not just yours so don't take it personally, but your creation story with a god that came and told your ancestors is not original, doesn't make sense and is simply unbelievable.

So what do you do? You tell people if they don't believe they'll go to hell. Sorry you don't have the option to burn, crucify or ban us anymore.

 

[hadit]

God existence is obvious to the very best minds ever born, minds that constantly seek for absolute truth.

You're blind.

They can't be the best minds if they believe in god.

1. Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so, including me. Think for yourself.
   
   
2. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so.
   
   
3. Test ideas, by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well designed test, it's wrong. Get over it.
   
   
4. Follow the evidence, wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.
   
   
5. And perhaps even the most important rule of all: remember you could be wrong. Even the best scientist have been wrong about somethings. Newton, Einstein, and ever other great scientist in history. They all made mistakes. Of course they did, their were human. Science is a way keep from fooling ourselves and each other.

I'll remain open to the possibility that a god or gods exist and created us. I haven't seen enough evidence to believe. I have seen enough evidence however to be very skeptical, especially of anyone who belongs to an organized religion. It is obvious to me Jesus, Moses, Mohammad, Abraham, Noah, Adam & Eve and Joseph Smith of the Mormons don't pass the test.

LoL you are blind.

How? Explain it to me? But remember if you quote the bible or koran I'm going to use this

(1) Question authority. No idea is true just because someone says so.

(2) Think for yourself. Question yourself. Don't believe anything just because you want to. Believing something doesn't make it so.

(3) Test ideas by the evidence gained from observation and experiment. If a favorite idea fails a well-designed test, it's wrong. Get over it.

(4) Follow the evidence wherever it leads. If you have no evidence, reserve judgment.

And perhaps the most important rule of all...

(5) Remember: you could be wrong. Even the best scientists have been wrong about some things. Newton, Einstein, and every other great scientist in history -- they all made mistakes. Of course they did. They were human.

Science is a way to keep from fooling ourselves, and each other.

Live with what you think. You should be able to, in time, find the truth that God exists, if you are sincere.

You can also know after you die. You will find out if what I tell you is true.

Remember what things were like for you the 13.5 billion years before you were born? That's what it'll be like for 13.5 billion years after you die.

Of course, your "well designed test" relies on the arrogant presumption that you can design a test that cannot be ignored by a superior being. Can an ant design a test to prove the existence of scientists in a lab if the scientists decide when, if, and how to enter the ants' existence? No.

God told me to tell you to stop global warming. Don't ask for proof. Take it on faith.

Cool. Let's just apply a little Biblical discipline to that statement. Did you not know that Christians are to evaluate everything they are told is from God against the Scriptures? Apparently not, because you just made a really stupid statement.

PS. Did you know you and the ant are related?

As are you.

They need to question the scripture too.

And when it's revealed to detail the way to be reconciled with God, accept and believe it.

What scripture are you referring to?

Religious texts, also known as scripture, scriptures, holy writ, or holy books, are the texts which various religious traditions consider to be sacred, or central to their religious tradition. Many religions and spiritual movements believe that their sacred texts are divinely or supernaturally revealed or inspired.

Notice the words various and many? You aren't the first or last religion. Oh but your's is the 1 out of 999 that came before or after your religion that was real? If man made up god 200,000 or 40,000 years ago, why did he wait until 6500 years ago to talk to us? Science doesn't mean to but it pokes holes in every aspect of your religion(s). Not just yours so don't take it personally, but your creation story with a god that came and told your ancestors is not original, doesn't make sense and is simply unbelievable.

So what do you do? You tell people if they don't believe they'll go to hell. Sorry you don't have the option to burn, crucify or ban us anymore.

Sounds like you wish you had that option. And, who said anything about 6500 years?

 

[sealybobo]

Did you know

1. There was once water on Mars and Venus. Maybe even life too. Millions of years before life on earth. But I don't think discovering life on these planets would stop people from believing in god(s). We didn't even know about Uranius and Neptune before the telescope. Religions told us we were all there was. Just our inner solar system is what they said. They were wrong, but people still believe. That's brainwashing. That's power. That's control.

2. We've only been able to detect the planets of other stars for a few decades, but we already know that planets are plentiful & they outnumber the stars. Almost all of them will be very different from Earth, and hostile to life as we know it. But what do we know about life? We've met only one kind so far. Earthlife.

3. Each galaxy contains billions of suns and countless worlds.
Yet, the entire Virgo Supercluster itself forms but a tiny part of our universe.
This is the cosmos on the grandest scale we know a network of a hundred billion galaxies.

4. Back in 1599, everyone knew that the Sun, planets and stars were just lights in the sky that revolved around the Earth, and that we were the center of a little universe, a universe made for us.
There was only one man on the whole planet who envisioned an infinitely grander cosmos.
And how was he spending New Year's Eve of the year 1600? Why, in prison, of course.

5. Copernicus made a radical proposal. The Earth was not the center.
It was just one of the planets, and, like them, it revolved around the Sun.
Many, like the Protestant reformer Martin Luther, took this idea as a scandalous affront to Scripture.
And this is who you want me/us to believe? This is who your religion comes from, right? But again, I don't think people care. Cognitive Dissonance.