The Forgotten Part Of Normandy

[PoliticalChic]

Why did the WAllies halt the drive to Berlin to allow the USSR to add Bulgaria to their portfolio?

Stalin's orders to FDR.

 

[Mushroom]

And in 1945 they all wanted to surrender to the allies rather than fight for Germany or surrender to the Russians. But thanks for the irrelevant details....

Talk about irrelevant details. Even the Germans were surrendering to the US and UK, rather than continuing to fight a lost cause or being taken captive by the Soviets.

Oh, and in case you did not know this, it was the Soviets Union, not the "Russians". And they were also an Allied power.

Did you sleep though every history class? Because the things you are trying to claim are so completely wrong, I swear you are just trying to make it all up. And doing a horrible job of it.

 

[Mushroom]

Stalin's orders to FDR.

And as far as I am concerned, they were welcome to it. That was actually a smart move.

The Occupation Zones had already been established at the Yalta Conference back in February, so it did not matter who took the city, the occupation zones were already set.

And the Battle of Berlin cost the Soviets well over 350,000 casualties. Over 81,000 killed. So as far as I am concerned, they are more then welcome to absorb all of that, better them than us.

So wait a minute, do you really believe that Stalin "gave orders" to FDR, knowing that he would lose over a quarter of a million of his own forces, and none would be lost by the US and UK? Wow, if that is your claim, then FDR was a freaking genius. He allowed Stalin to fool himself into killing a huge number of his forces, for no gain.

 

[westwall]

And as far as I am concerned, they were welcome to it. That was actually a smart move.

The Occupation Zones had already been established at the Yalta Conference back in February, so it did not matter who took the city, the occupation zones were already set.

And the Battle of Berlin cost the Soviets well over 350,000 casualties. Over 81,000 killed. So as far as I am concerned, they are more then welcome to absorb all of that, better them than us.

So wait a minute, do you really believe that Stalin "gave orders" to FDR, knowing that he would lose over a quarter of a million of his own forces, and none would be lost by the US and UK? Wow, if that is your claim, then FDR was a freaking genius. He allowed Stalin to fool himself into killing a huge number of his forces, for no gain.

200,000 of those casualties were Soviet on Soviet attacks. And Stalin couldn't give a rats ass how many of his own troops got killed. So long as HIS army was the one that took Berlin, that was all he cared about. It was his orders that cost the Soviets 200,000 casualties as the two Soviet armies literally attacked each other trying to be the first to get into the city.

 

[Mushroom]

200,000 of those casualties were Soviet on Soviet attacks. And Stalin couldn't give a rats ass how many of his own troops got killed. So long as HIS army was the one that took Berlin, that was all he cared about. It was his orders that cost the Soviets 200,000 casualties as the two Soviet armies literally attacked each other trying to be the first to get into the city.

And damned few none of the US.

And in the end, it got him a destroyed city. Because the occupation zones had already been set way back in April at the Yalta Conference. When the US, UK, and French soldiers and diplomats arrived, all of the Soviet forces then had to pull back to their own occupation zone.

I guess however PoliticalChic would be happy if we had another 100,000 or more US deaths and casualties. Taking a defeated city in a defeated country for no real gain as all lines had been set months before.

 

[westwall]

And damned few none of the US.

And in the end, it got him a destroyed city. Because the occupation zones had already been set way back in April at the Yalta Conference. When the US, UK, and French soldiers and diplomats arrived, all of the Soviet forces then had to pull back to their own occupation zone.

I guess however PoliticalChic would be happy if we had another 100,000 or more US deaths and casualties. Taking a defeated city in a defeated country for no real gain as all lines had been set months before.

She cares about US losses, she just doesn't understand strategy and tactics. But you are correct about everything else.

 

[Stryder50]

Communists are always dictatorships, socialists are always democratic everywhere in the world but brainwashed English speaking world. The French Spanish Italians Russians Germans etc etc all had socialists and communist parties. The socialists always won and the communists disappeared after the fall of the USSR and its support. Nazis and communists like to refer to themselves as some kind of socialists, but only fools believe their ridiculous propaganda and nomenclatures...

EXCERPTS;

Commonalities of Socialism and Communism​

Socialism and communism are both economic systems in which the public owns the means of production. The means of production include the raw materials and means of labor, such as machines and tools, used in production processes. Under both systems the state also engages in centralized planning; in a planned or command economy, business activities and resource allocation are controlled by the state, ostensibly for the greater good.
...

The First Step​

Vladimir Lenin, who led the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia in 1917, saw communism as a "higher stage" of socialism. Socialism, in this line of thinking, was the first step toward a new society after the inevitable collapse of capitalism. Eventually socialism, considered a first, necessary step, would develop into communism. It is important to note that the United States, like nearly all modern capitalist economies, contains some elements of socialism, including public schools, Social Security benefits and public works projects -- collectivist services that are run by the state, not the free market. The difference between capitalist and socialist economies is often not binary, but rather one of degree.
...

The Relationship Between Socialism & Communism

Karl Marx, a 19th-century political philosopher and a father of communism, believed that socialism was a natural outgrowth of capitalism.

www.theclassroom.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Communist Manifesto (1848): 10 Steps From Socialism to Communism​

The 8 steps to communism | News, Sports, Jobs - The Mining Gazette​

Socialism: The transition to Communism - League for the Fifth International​

 

[Stryder50]

i don't know anybody who is in favor of those things period. I am all about a living wage healthcare daycare cheap college and training great infrastructure and vacations and mainly taxing the rich like every other modern country- for 50 years now thank you GOP. This GOP giveaway to the rich and ******** propaganda has given us the worst inequality and upward mobility ever and anywhere .... period a disgrace period change the channel

Everything has a cost, and someone has to pay it.
All those "freebies" and "low costs" you want, in those other countries is provided via racking up Debt. Which will like have consequences when future generations have to pay for it.

https://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

 

[Mushroom]

She cares about US losses, she just doesn't understand strategy and tactics.

Yet, she insists that the US should have taken Berlin.

She really is John Snow.

 

[Mushroom]

Communists are always dictatorships, socialists are always democratic everywhere in the world but brainwashed English speaking world.

I see.

So NSDAP Germany, Fascist Italy, and Venezuela today are all "Democracies"?

Holy hell, do I even need to continue? Not one of those nations ever considered themselves "Communist", but all indeed were Socialist.

If you think that "Socialists are always Democratic", then I have some prime farmland I would like to sell you in Louisiana.

Better brainwashed as you claim, than brain dead.

 

[francoHFW]

I see.

So NSDAP Germany, Fascist Italy, and Venezuela today are all "Democracies"?

Holy hell, do I even need to continue? Not one of those nations ever considered themselves "Communist", but all indeed were Socialist.

If you think that "Socialists are always Democratic", then I have some prime farmland I would like to sell you in Louisiana.

Better brainwashed as you claim, than brain dead.

I see.

So NSDAP Germany, Fascist Italy, and Venezuela today are all "Democracies"?

Holy hell, do I even need to continue? Not one of those nations ever considered themselves "Communist", but all indeed were Socialist.

If you think that "Socialists are always Democratic", then I have some prime farmland I would like to sell you in Louisiana.

Better brainwashed as you claim, than brain dead.

Germany and Italy were dictatorships and were not socialists you idiot no matter what they called themselves. The USSR called themselves socialist too and of course they were communist. Italy Germany every other country but English speaking countries have had democracies for decades or a century where socialists ran against communists and the difference was democracy always. The socialists won that's why all the modern democracies have socialism. Communism lost to socialism and has disappeared except in China South Vietnam and Cuba. Venezuela is barely socialist because they have had to get nasty to fight American pressures and covert action etcetera etcetera etcetera. They still have elections and the socialists are still more popular than the oligarchs who were supported by America and united fruit and Esso. No matter what your right wing and capitalist propaganda say...

 

[francoHFW]

I see.

So NSDAP Germany, Fascist Italy, and Venezuela today are all "Democracies"?

Holy hell, do I even need to continue? Not one of those nations ever considered themselves "Communist", but all indeed were Socialist.

If you think that "Socialists are always Democratic", then I have some prime farmland I would like to sell you in Louisiana.

Better brainwashed as you claim, than brain dead.

In every democracy since 1900 the socialists have been for democracy and the communists have been for dictatorship. Communism where every business is owned by the state has never been put in except by violent revolution. And never will be and is basically dead now except in your stupid scary propaganda, brainwashed functional moron

 

[francoHFW]

Everything has a cost, and someone has to pay it.
All those "freebies" and "low costs" you want, in those other countries is provided via racking up Debt. Which will like have consequences when future generations have to pay for it.

https://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

https://www.usdebtclock.org/world-d... ever and anywhere by far thanks to you jerks

absolute BS. they tax the rich and they don't take any **** from the swine, brainwashed functional moron. We are the richest country in the world by far, Super dupes. And if you say we need a living wage you say free stuff free stuff and communism. A living wage doesn't cost the government a damn thing.... Every other modern country manages it. We have the worst inequality and upward mobility ever and anywhere by far thanks to you jerks[/URL]

 

[francoHFW]

EXCERPTS;

Commonalities of Socialism and Communism​

Socialism and communism are both economic systems in which the public owns the means of production. The means of production include the raw materials and means of labor, such as machines and tools, used in production processes. Under both systems the state also engages in centralized planning; in a planned or command economy, business activities and resource allocation are controlled by the state, ostensibly for the greater good.
...

The First Step​

Vladimir Lenin, who led the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia in 1917, saw communism as a "higher stage" of socialism. Socialism, in this line of thinking, was the first step toward a new society after the inevitable collapse of capitalism. Eventually socialism, considered a first, necessary step, would develop into communism. It is important to note that the United States, like nearly all modern capitalist economies, contains some elements of socialism, including public schools, Social Security benefits and public works projects -- collectivist services that are run by the state, not the free market. The difference between capitalist and socialist economies is often not binary, but rather one of degree.
...

The Relationship Between Socialism & Communism

Karl Marx, a 19th-century political philosopher and a father of communism, believed that socialism was a natural outgrowth of capitalism.

www.theclassroom.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Communist Manifesto (1848): 10 Steps From Socialism to Communism​

The 8 steps to communism | News, Sports, Jobs - The Mining Gazette​

Socialism: The transition to Communism - League for the Fifth International​

yes yes communists are the biggest liars in the world and we're totally proven wrong

 

[francoHFW]

Talk about irrelevant details. Even the Germans were surrendering to the US and UK, rather than continuing to fight a lost cause or being taken captive by the Soviets.

Oh, and in case you did not know this, it was the Soviets Union, not the "Russians". And they were also an Allied power.

Did you sleep though every history class? Because the things you are trying to claim are so completely wrong, I swear you are just trying to make it all up. And doing a horrible job of it.

Can you follow intelligent conversation at all? We're talking about going through the Italy and Austria and Hungary with the allies like Eisenhower and Churchill wanted. Thanks for agreeing with me.

 

[francoHFW]

Oh my goodness, do you just make up everything as you go along?

They indeed did not "all hate the Germans". The 7th SS Volunteer Mountain Division Prinz Eugen, the 13th SS Waffen Mountain Division Handschar, the 21st SS Mountain Division Skanderbeg, and the 23rd SS Mountain Division Kama were almost entirely manned by people from Yugoslavia. Primarily Croatian units, the 21st Division was Albanian.

So obviously they did not all hate the Germans. Oh, and that is not all, as you also had three divisions (369th, 373rd, and the 392nd) serving directly with the Wehrmacht. As well as others.

All told, well over 100,000 Croats and Albanians volunteered to serve with Germany.

So obviously what you said was wrong.

Of course there are stupid right wingers everywhere that love joining dictator's armies.... But we are talking about 1945 and why the Italy Austria etcetera attack on the southern belly was not a bad idea. 1945 remember? Jesus you people are stupid.

 

[westwall]

Germany and Italy were dictatorships and were not socialists you idiot no matter what they called themselves. The USSR called themselves socialist too and of course they were communist. Italy Germany every other country but English speaking countries have had democracies for decades or a century where socialists ran against communists and the difference was democracy always. The socialists won that's why all the modern democracies have socialism. Communism lost to socialism and has disappeared except in China South Vietnam and Cuba. Venezuela is barely socialist because they have had to get nasty to fight American pressures and covert action etcetera etcetera etcetera. They still have elections and the socialists are still more popular than the oligarchs who were supported by America and united fruit and Esso. No matter what your right wing and capitalist propaganda say...

They ALL started with claims that they were going to take care of the people. Little did the people know that that meant dying in mass quantities.

DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

 

[Stryder50]

https://www.usdebtclock.org/world-d... ever and anywhere by far thanks to you jerks

absolute BS. they tax the rich and they don't take any **** from the swine, brainwashed functional moron. We are the richest country in the world by far, Super dupes. And if you say we need a living wage you say free stuff free stuff and communism. A living wage doesn't cost the government a damn thing.... Every other modern country manages it. We have the worst inequality and upward mobility ever and anywhere by far thanks to you jerks[/URL]

I say you should start a business and see how easy it is to pay your hired workers a "living wage" ~ however that shifting goalpost is defined.

Something tells me that if you ever worked to support yourself, you likely weren't very productive or profitable as an employee. You likely got paid what you were worth, or maybe even more than you were worth. You sound to me like one who isn't even worth minimum wage.

 

[Stryder50]

Can you follow intelligent conversation at all? We're talking about going through the Italy and Austria and Hungary with the allies like Eisenhower and Churchill wanted. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Can you present an intelligent conversation at all?

Churchill wasn't always right in his strategic thinking.
Eisenhower had second thoughts by December 1943 when the Gustaf Line proved too tough to punch through and the mud, snow, and Winter didn't help any. When Anzio landing became a botched undertaking that sealed off the MTO~ North thru Italy, as the doorway into Germany as far as Ike was concerned.

 

[francoHFW]

I say you should start a business and see how easy it is to pay your hired workers a "living wage" ~ however that shifting goalpost is defined.

Something tells me that if you ever worked to support yourself, you likely weren't very productive or profitable as an employee. You like got paid what you were worth, or maybe even more than you were worth. You sound to me like one who isn't even worth minimum wage.

Yep stupid propaganda and lies and ******* insults, that's all you have...

Funny how every other modern country can handle all this stuff and we are the richest one by far, brainwashed functional moron.