Treason At Pearl Harbor.

[Soupnazi630]

Nothing in any of those threads was made up. They are all based on documented facts.

Wrong the conclusion that FDR is not documented in any way shape or form.

It is rank speculation

 

[Soupnazi630]

Those websites pointed out that there was plenty to know. Of course, FDR would have been at the top of the list of those who knew. It would be obvious to even an idiot like you that FDR having such knowledge is something that he wouldn't want anybody else to know. So it was all kept secret. And in one of the websites it spoke of how those who supported the president to keep it secret were rewarded.

Wrong.

FDR would not have known. No president is aware of every detail known to everyone in the government..

Furthermore people below him always have to decide what has priority and what does not

He had no specific knwoledge of the attack and no evidence exists that he did

 

[Soupnazi630]

Wow, you have it bad! Your brain is scrambling words you don't want to hear. What it is actually saying is that before December 7, 1941, the United States knew what the Japanese were planning to do. Do you think it said that "until December 7, 1941, nothing the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States?"

It means gthey had no knowledge of it you total fucking idiot

 

[mikegriffith1]

An excellent recent book that summarizes the new information we have on advance knowledge of Pearl Harbor is James D'Angelo's book Pearl Harbor Declassified: The Evidence of American Foreknowledge of the Attack (McFarland, 2021). D'Angelo is the founder of the Midway Memorial Association and has written extensively about WWII in military journals, including the magazine of the Naval Order of the United States.

BTW, Dr. William Dudley, a former Director of Naval History at the U.S. Navy's Naval History and Heritage Command, has endorsed D'Angelo's book, saying,

Dr. James D’Angelo studied both sides of the Pearl Harbor surprise attack controversy and has considered the major arguments and evidence from many sources. This book is important because during the last thirty years new evidence has emerged. The release of declassified records previously held close at secret and higher levels of classification in the National Archives and records centers of the United States and the United Kingdom has focused new light on the old surprise attack theory. What Dr. D’Angelo has done here is, in his own words, "to connect the dots" so that the readers can decide for themselves where the truth stands.

James Noone, a retired U.S. Navy Captain, says this about the book:

Was the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor really a surprise? This well-researched book will make fair-minded readers think twice. Using highly secret information declassified in recent decades, he argues plausibly that FDR and others knew of Japanese plans.

 

[goodluck]

Wrong the conclusion that FDR is not documented in any way shape or form.

It is rank speculation

Yeah, just like, to you, there was no investigation into the matter. When in post #265 I posted a link to a document made about that investigation. Why don't you just go away.

 

[goodluck]

It means gthey had no knowledge of it you total fucking idiot

You're the fucking idiot. The document said, "Up to the morning of Decenber 7, 1941, EVERYTHING the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States." It didn't say, "Up to the morning of December 7, 1941, NOTHING the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States." If only you understood the difference between the words "everything" and "nothing."

 

[sparky]

Was the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor really a surprise? This well-researched book will make fair-minded readers think twice. Using highly secret information declassified in recent decades, he argues plausibly that FDR and others knew of Japanese plans.

Was the 9/11 attack on the twin towers a surprise?

~S~

 

[goodluck]

An excellent recent book that summarizes the new information we have on advance knowledge of Pearl Harbor is James D'Angelo's book Pearl Harbor Declassified: The Evidence of American Foreknowledge of the Attack (McFarland, 2021). D'Angelo is the founder of the Midway Memorial Association and has written extensively about WWII in military journals, including the magazine of the Naval Order of the United States.

BTW, Dr. William Dudley, a former Director of Naval History at the U.S. Navy's Naval History and Heritage Command, has endorsed D'Angelo's book, saying,

Dr. James D’Angelo studied both sides of the Pearl Harbor surprise attack controversy and has considered the major arguments and evidence from many sources. This book is important because during the last thirty years new evidence has emerged. The release of declassified records previously held close at secret and higher levels of classification in the National Archives and records centers of the United States and the United Kingdom has focused new light on the old surprise attack theory. What Dr. D’Angelo has done here is, in his own words, "to connect the dots" so that the readers can decide for themselves where the truth stands.

James Noone, a retired U.S. Navy Captain, says this about the book:

Was the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor really a surprise? This well-researched book will make fair-minded readers think twice. Using highly secret information declassified in recent decades, he argues plausibly that FDR and others knew of Japanese plans.

Did you see the document about the investigation into Pearl Harbor I posted a link to in post #265? Even that wasn't enough to convince Soupnazi360. It was created in 1944. Up 8 paragraphs from the bottom, it says this. "Up to the morning of December 7, 1941, everything the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States." It doesn't get much more clear cut than that.

 

[Soupnazi630]

You're the fucking idiot. The document said, "Up to the morning of Decenber 7, 1941, EVERYTHING the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States." It didn't say, "Up to the morning of December 7, 1941, NOTHING the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States." If only you understood the difference between the words "everything" and "nothing."

Wrong fucking MORON it meant they THOUGHT they knew what was going on but the attack proved them WRONG

 

[Soupnazi630]

Yeah, just like, to you, there was no investigation into the matter. When in post #265 I posted a link to a document made about that investigation. Why don't you just go away.

And foudn no evidence

I am in your face correcting your ignorant lies DEAL WITH IT

 

[Stryder50]

Great. Another chance to show you how stupid you are. I have a link for you. In the document, look up 8 paragraphs from the bottom. You will see this statement. "Up to the morning of December 7, 1941, everything the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States...."

"Up to the morning of December 7, 1941, everything that the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States…." -- Top Secret Report of Army Pearl Harbor Board (October 20, 1944)

1) I don't have time to pour over @300 pages of small print. How about telling which page number has this quote, please.
2) Does this "everything the Japanese were planning to do" include details and timetables for their many attacks in the Philippines, Dutch East Indies, etc. on that day and the during the next couple of days?

 

[mikegriffith1]

Wrong. FDR would not have known. No president is aware of every detail known to everyone in the government. Furthermore people below him always have to decide what has priority and what does not. He had no specific knowledge of the attack and no evidence exists that he did

This is just silly. So you really believe that senior military officials decided not to inform FDR that Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor??? Really??? Wouldn't this crucial intel have been given the highest priority???

Yes, evidence that FDR knew of the attack most certainly does exist. Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox, Congressman Hale Boggs, New Deal official Joseph Leib, Colonel Carlton Ketchum, and several others said that FDR knew Pearl Harbor would be attacked.

The Joint Congressional Committee established that FDR was fully briefed on the bomb plot messages, which even to a layman were an obvious indication of preparation for a bombing attack. Only at Pearl Harbor did the Japanese seek information on the exact position of ships in relation to other ships, and only at Pearl Harbor did they divide the harbor into small geographic zones for the purpose of reporting ship positions. A dumb high schooler would have recognized that the bomb plot messages indicated preparation for an air attack.

I might add that a whole bunch of Navy officers, from admirals to lieutenant commanders, said they believed or suspected that FDR knew about the attack and let it happen because he wanted to get the U.S. into the war. Admirals Theobold, Halsey (yes, Bull Halsey), Nimitz, Tolley, and others were among the senior officers who expressed this view.

It is a perversion of the noble concept of patriotism to refuse to admit that FDR knew of the attack and let it happen to get us into the war. It is hardly unpatriotic to point out that FDR betrayed the sailors at Pearl Harbor because he was so desperate to get America into the war. FDR's betrayal was the ultimate unpatriotic act, and veterans are the last people on Earth who should be denying his treachery or making excuses for it.

As a veteran myself (21 years in the U.S. Army), I can't fathom why any veteran would defend FDR's handling of WWII. He sold out Eastern Europe to Stalin, rescued the Soviet monstrosity from destruction, made an enemy out of our long-time anti-communist friend Japan, paved the way for the Communist takeover of China and North Korea, and sacrificed thousands of sailors at Pearl Harbor to get America into the war.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

This is just silly. So you really believe that senior military officials decided not to inform FDR that Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor??? Really??? Wouldn't this crucial intel have been given the highest priority???

Yes, evidence that FDR knew of the attack most certainly does exist. Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox, Congressman Hale Boggs, New Deal official Joseph Leib, Colonel Carlton Ketchum, and several others said that FDR knew Pearl Harbor would be attacked.

The Joint Congressional Committee established that FDR was fully briefed on the bomb plot messages, which even to a layman were an obvious indication of preparation for a bombing attack. Only at Pearl Harbor did the Japanese seek information on the exact position of ships in relation to other ships, and only at Pearl Harbor did they divide the harbor into small geographic zones for the purpose of reporting ship positions. A dumb high schooler would have recognized that the bomb plot messages indicated preparation for an air attack.

I might add that a whole bunch of Navy officers, from admirals to lieutenant commanders, said they believed or suspected that FDR knew about the attack and let it happen because he wanted to get the U.S. into the war. Admirals Theobold, Halsey (yes, Bull Halsey), Nimitz, Tolley, and others were among the senior officers who expressed this view.

It is a perversion of the noble concept of patriotism to refuse to admit that FDR knew of the attack and let it happen to get us into the war. It is hardly unpatriotic to point out that FDR betrayed the sailors at Pearl Harbor because he was so desperate to get America into the war. FDR's betrayal was the ultimate unpatriotic act, and veterans are the last people on Earth who should be denying his treachery or making excuses for it.

As a veteran myself (21 years in the U.S. Army), I can't fathom why any veteran would defend FDR's handling of WWII. He sold out Eastern Europe to Stalin, rescued the Soviet monstrosity from destruction, made an enemy out of our long-time anti-communist friend Japan, paved the way for the Communist takeover of China and North Korea, and sacrificed thousands of sailors at Pearl Harbor to get America into the war.

Japan was not our friend in the 30's you dumb ass. And we objected to their war in China. The Soviets were not our friend either but without them we never would have taken Europe back.

 

[Soupnazi630]

This is just silly. So you really believe that senior military officials decided not to inform FDR that Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor??? Really??? Wouldn't this crucial intel have been given the highest priority???

Yes, evidence that FDR knew of the attack most certainly does exist. Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox, Congressman Hale Boggs, New Deal official Joseph Leib, Colonel Carlton Ketchum, and several others said that FDR knew Pearl Harbor would be attacked.

The Joint Congressional Committee established that FDR was fully briefed on the bomb plot messages, which even to a layman were an obvious indication of preparation for a bombing attack. Only at Pearl Harbor did the Japanese seek information on the exact position of ships in relation to other ships, and only at Pearl Harbor did they divide the harbor into small geographic zones for the purpose of reporting ship positions. A dumb high schooler would have recognized that the bomb plot messages indicated preparation for an air attack.

I might add that a whole bunch of Navy officers, from admirals to lieutenant commanders, said they believed or suspected that FDR knew about the attack and let it happen because he wanted to get the U.S. into the war. Admirals Theobold, Halsey (yes, Bull Halsey), Nimitz, Tolley, and others were among the senior officers who expressed this view.

It is a perversion of the noble concept of patriotism to refuse to admit that FDR knew of the attack and let it happen to get us into the war. It is hardly unpatriotic to point out that FDR betrayed the sailors at Pearl Harbor because he was so desperate to get America into the war. FDR's betrayal was the ultimate unpatriotic act, and veterans are the last people on Earth who should be denying his treachery or making excuses for it.

As a veteran myself (21 years in the U.S. Army), I can't fathom why any veteran would defend FDR's handling of WWII. He sold out Eastern Europe to Stalin, rescued the Soviet monstrosity from destruction, made an enemy out of our long-time anti-communist friend Japan, paved the way for the Communist takeover of China and North Korea, and sacrificed thousands of sailors at Pearl Harbor to get America into the war.

The senior military officials did not specificlaly kknow they were going to attack pearl harbor

What is silly is your claim

It is twisted political revisionist history to claim he knew

Suspeciions prove NOTHING

this has nothing to do with the handling of the overall war and no one ccares about your chicken hawk boasting

 

[mikegriffith1]

Japan was not our friend in the 30's you dumb ass.

What amazing ignorance. We were Japan's biggest trading partner in the 1930s. We had full diplomatic relations with Japan. We had numerous cultural exchange programs with Japan. Japan actively courted American tourists in the 1930s.

And we objected to their war in China.

And our objection was based on a lot of ignorance and misleading reporting. I cover this in great detail in Appendix B in The Real Infamy of Pearl Harbor. Japan had perfectly valid reasons for being in China. One reason Japan was in China was to combat Soviet influence there and to prevent the Soviets from taking advantage of warlord-torn Manchuria.

The Soviets were not our friend either but without them we never would have taken Europe back.

What??? Thanks to FDR, the Soviets enslaved Eastern Europe! I mean, holy cow. Are you living in 1945 or something? The Soviets were worse than the Nazis.

The fable that we would have lost all of Europe without Soviet intervention is one of the biggest lies and false choices in the history of the world. I have to wonder if you've read anything on WWII written less than 40 years ago. You could start with these two books:

Stalin's War, by Dr. Sean McMeekin

The New Dealers' War, by Dr. Thomas Fleming

 

[Unkotare]

Is this your thread? Did you start it, bitch.

When you start a thread, you just start a thread. It doesn't make you the "commander" of the thread. Just discuss.

 

[Unkotare]

Japan was one of the Allied Powers during WWI, and the Treaty of Versailles granted them territory in China that had been controlled by Germany before the war. It could be argued that China getting screwed over had as much or more to do with WWII happening than Germany being too harshly punished.

 

[Stryder50]

What amazing ignorance. We were Japan's biggest trading partner in the 1930s. We had full diplomatic relations with Japan. We had numerous cultural exchange programs with Japan. Japan actively courted American tourists in the 1930s.



And our objection was based on a lot of ignorance and misleading reporting. I cover this in great detail in Appendix B in The Real Infamy of Pearl Harbor. Japan had perfectly valid reasons for being in China. One reason Japan was in China was to combat Soviet influence there and to prevent the Soviets from taking advantage of warlord-torn Manchuria.



What??? Thanks to FDR, the Soviets enslaved Eastern Europe! I mean, holy cow. Are you living in 1945 or something? The Soviets were worse than the Nazis.

The fable that we would have lost all of Europe without Soviet intervention is one of the biggest lies and false choices in the history of the world. I have to wonder if you've read anything on WWII written less than 40 years ago. You could start with these two books:

Stalin's War, by Dr. Sean McMeekin

The New Dealers' War, by Dr. Thomas Fleming

1) The USA also had trade & diplomatic relations with Nazi Germany during the 1930s. With regard to both Japan and Germany the trade started to fizzle out by late 1930s.

In Japan's case, the brutality of their attacks against China (Nationalist)* caused increasing displeasure in the USA, Especially after the 1937 'Rape of Nanking' episode. In the case of China trying to upgrade their air force to counter Japan's, they first got aid from Germany, then Italy, and Russia up until June 1941 when Germany's invasion of Russia caused the Russian "advisers" to withdraw. The USA then stepped in and picked up the slack of foreign "aid" to China. Formation of the American Volunteer Group(AVG) = Flying Tigers is one example (more on that at another time).

It was the increasing sanctions and boycotts towards Japan by the USA, and other nations, that encouraged major military factions in Japan to consider and plan for a more forceful securing of resources and markets in East Asia. Japan could have complied and ceased fighting China and withdraw from the conquered areas and WWII in the Pacific might not have happened. But Japan's leadership considered that option unacceptable.

* Note that during the 1930s there was a civil war ongoing in China between the Nationalists and the Communists, who controlled a significant chunk of land in China. As Japan's attack on Nationalist China intensified, the Communist started to "lay low". A policy used more so once Russia was at war with Germany and Russia aid to the Mao and co. dwindled.

In Germany's case, their attack on Poland and resulting war with England and France started to put a damper on USA trade with Germany, along with a shift towards helping the Allies - England and France. USA assistance was restricted due to our own "Neutrality Act", but after the fall of France in Summer of 1940 the US & FDR adjusted the "cash and carry" aid policy to the Lend-Lease version to help keep Britain from surrendering to Germany. That Lend-Lease act also provided aid to China, which in turn was used to "pay for" the AVG.

2) Without Western~USA aid to Russia after Germany attacked in June 1941, there is a good probability that Russia would have surrendered/come to terms with Nazi Germany by end of 1942 to mid 1943. With most of Russia's grain belt and food production territory being battlegrounds and occupied by the German's, Russia would have been starving very quickly if not for USA food shipments. A boost with motor transport(trucks) along with the grain/food also helped by giving Russian military some mobility and improved logistics. With about 80+% of Germany's army fighting the Russians, had they beat the Russians* that would have freed up about another 100 divisions (and a majority of the armor ones) to shift West and fortify France against a USA and British landing there.**

* - Russia suing for 'terms' could have been workable to Hitler so long as the Soviets were at or behind(East of) the Ural mountains. While this would leave part of the Soviets/Russia alive and at "peace" it could have taken years or longer for the Russians to threaten Germany again, if at all. Especially if there was no Lend-Lease aid from the Allies (USA and UK). Russia would be too busy surviving and then rebuilding for years before starting to do more than match Germany's military guarding them.

** - With 'peace' between Russia and Germany, at least about 2/3 of the German Army that fought the Soviets would be free from occupation duties and able to defend the West of Europe, i.e. France - Atlantic Wall. Assuming England didn't collapse and/or become occupied by the Nazis, without a war with Russia to be a major drain on Germany military resources, the Allies = USA & UK, would have been looking at least another 3-4 years before being able to land in France; if that! An amphibious landing against a much stronger occupied France would have to be about 3-4 times the size of what went ashore at Normandy in order to have a chance to establish a beach-head that could be held and built up for strength to attack outward. A rather BIG IF.

3) Dropping back towards the thread topic, two things to consider;

A) In military history there are numerous examples of seeming accurate and valuable Intel about an enemy's plans and intentions. Often it's not just one possible plan or "spear-point" but two or more plausible thrusts/attacks that COULD happen. Then again there are almost as many "revelations" that don't play out or were just a ruse, a decoy to through the other side off and confused. The case for a supposed "We/FDR/USA" knew about Pearl Harbor attack in advance of the event lacks sufficient detail to be a "sure thing". There's enough "vague' involved for it to have been considered a ruse or decoy/distraction. But if we assume FDR and Others believed it would happen when and where it did, then the question to ask is what could have been done about it.;

B) If USA command believes the attack is coming and the date/time is fairly certain(accurate) then there are about three ways it could play out. (I'll make this quick and brief since it's it's late and past my bedtime. Embellish more later perhaps.)

I) Notice is in hand rather late, only a day or two (or less) before scheduled attack. Rather than try to scramble out of harbor, the battleships pull anchor and disperse about the harbor and keep the boilers going for maneuver purposes. Search aircraft are sent out in max numbers and long ranges and directions to try and find the Japanese fleet(s). Note there was a small number of long range effective search aircraft - PBYs mostly - so search areas and patterns will have to be chosen wisely. In reality, post attack it was thought the Japanese fleet was South of the islands and search to find them was in that direction. Our first big variable is if and how much search for the Japs will be done North as well? Also, how many subs can be readied and sent out to search, and what directions should they go.

Anti-aircraft guns are manned and fighter patrols (CAP) are being flown. With no real radar in effect, air patrols out from the islands to spot incoming aircraft might be advisable. If the Jap carrier task force isn't spotted before launch of air strikes, then this plays out similar to history with the planes coming into Pearl Harbor but having to deal with moving targets ready to shoot back. Still likely USN ships will be hit and damaged, maybe some "sunk"; but results won't be as bad as historical. Note that via hindsight we know that there were active spies for Japan watching and reporting on Pearl Harbor so it's possible that word of USA preparedness may have got back to the Japanese fleet and the airstrikes loaded and routed to take this into plans.

II) There is more than a couple days notice and the Intel is believed. The battleships get up steam, pull anchor and head out to sea. The carriers abort the aircraft ferry missions and head back towards Pearl. Here is where the variables become a coin toss of sorts. Do the BBs and CVs sail to find and intercept the IJN attack fleet, or do they try to hide and see how things develop. ???

Not that the IJN is committed to attack Pearl to some degree, even if the USN fleet isn't there. Plans would be adjusted for one strike only and that one armed to attack the fuel tank farms, the harbor repair facilities, base facilities and any other warships still in harbor. What would be a second strike force is held back in hopes of spotting the USA at sea and attacking them there. IJN search aircraft would have to be increased in hopes of finding the USN BBs and/or CVs. If the USN ships at sea can't be found, then likely a second strike to damage and destroy as much more as possible of harbor facilities and the IJN pulls away and heads home.

III) This is the possible worse case scenario and it would be worse than historical. While attacking the harbor, airbases, and facilities in first strike, air, or submarine searches spot either or both of the USN BBs and CVs. Second and/or third strikes go out to attack them at sea. While the USN ships could try to maneuver to dodge bombs and torpedoes, ship anti-aircraft guns weren't the best or plentiful at this time. There's a good probability at least a few ships get hit and maybe sink, or it could be a lot of ships damaged and sunk. The down side here is that those sunk are down for good. Historically the "sunk" BBs were in shallow water and could be re-floated and repaired. Won't be able to retrieve lost ships that go down in deep ocean. Also, being far away from base and it's hospitals, casualties could be greater than historical since there are no close by hospitals to take the wounded to , nor close by shore and docks for those men in the water like was the case in the attack in the harbor.

Bottom-line as I see it is that so long as the bulk of the USN Pacific fleet was at or near Hawaii when the Japanese fleet came to attack, damage & sunk ships and killed and wounded personnel would likely have been the same or more~worse. Not knowing the course of the IJN CV strike fleet, there was little chance to intercept. With 6 CV for the IJN and 2 for the USN it's likely the USN could have lost it's two CVs and maybe still lose some BBs, for good. Considering the variables and options, unpleasant as it may have been, the historical path looks to have been the better one to happen.

 

[forkup]

The big problem with history written by the victors is that everything else, such as the truth, becomes a "conspiracy theory." But the truth of the matter is that FDR knew well in advance when the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor. Making all of the servicemen who died in the attack suckers. If I were a ghost of any of those killed there, I wouldn't have the least interest in any "honor" you may pay me and the others who died. I would be more interested in JUSTICE! Such as by having the real story come out. I will show you a number of websites that show that FDR knew well in advance what the Japanese were planning on doing and when. The first two bring up what cryptographers themselves had to say. This first one is from a letter written by somebody named Lietwiler to Parke. The really telling part of it is it speaking of the Japanese naval code. It says, "By November 16, 1941 (Manila time) Lietweiler informed Parke that he was "reading enough current traffic to keep two translators very busy." Here is the website.

Pearl Harbor Document: Letter from Leitweiler to Parke | Robert B. Stinnett

Pearl Harbor Document: Letter from Leitweiler to Parke: The...​

Obviously, it was in FDR's best interest to keep this information as secret as possible. And it is still being kept secret. For any cryptographers back then, it was in their best interest to shut up about the matter. In this next website it speaks of another cryptographer named William Friedman. Though what he had to say came from what his wife had to say on the matter. Probably after his death. I would assume it is what happened when they both heard about the 'surprise" attack on Pearl Harbor. He paced back and forth in their home and muttered to himself repeatedly, "But they knew, they knew, they knew." Here is the website that speaks of it and other matters.


Eighty Years of Lies: President Franklin Roosevelt Told Public Pearl Harbor Was A Surprise Attack—However There Is Considerable Evidence Demonstrating Government Foreknowledge - CovertAction Magazine

Eighty Years of Lies: President... - CovertAction Magazine​

This next website posts a quote that was stated by an army board of inquiry in 1944. It says, "...everything that the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States..." Here is the website.

Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies

Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies​

Here is another website for you on the matter.

https://thefreethoughtproject.com/the-state/pearl-harbor-81st-anniversary

81 Years After Pearl Harbor, We... - The Free Thought Project​

Pearl Harbor Document: Letter from Leitweiler to Parke | Robert B. Stinnett​

I'll give a simple and concise argument why the notion that FDR purposely let Pearl Harbor happeo is ridiculous.

There is absolutely NO NEED for POTUS to allow for a SUCCESSFUL attack on Pearl. ANY attack on ANY of it's holdins, be it successful or unsuccessful WOULD draw the US in the war. And there's a very big incentive to make it unsuccessful. Loss of life being avoided is one, and for the more cynical. Keeping the battleships afloat to prosecute the war being another.

 

[DudleySmith]

The simple truth is both Japan and Germany declared war on us, not the other way around. Only idiots think it happened any other way.