The glaring evidence that Obamacare is a catastrophic FAILURE continues to mount

[Listening]

It changes your claim and the articles main claim, "will stop accepting Medicare patients"

I would agree that the article's title is misleading. When I went back and looked at it, I wondered how they could tell people to show up with cash and then not accept them (of course, then they would not have been medicare patients....as I understand it).

Never-the-less...the article shows that Mayo was losing money out the ass on medicare patients.

Apparently, they are keeping some form of this....the article said it was a two year program (and I know when it first started people went nuts)....but this is now four years later.

Seems reasonable to me. Medicare pays some....you pay some.

Bottom line is Mayo was getting hosed by medicare.

What isn't talked about is how they absorbed all those losses. You would think it was made up in some way......like charging the hell out of others. Wonder what the rest of the books look like ?

It doesn't show that they were losing money. It isn't a balance sheet. Price doesn't equal cost. It just shows that they can hold prices higher than the general equilibrium price for Medicare. We'd have to see the balance sheet to demonstrate they were getting "hosed". Often, they aren't, it just bites into their profits. Often, far fewer people actually pay there portion than owe it. Once health care is provided, it can't be taken back. Hospitals write off a lot. I'm always cautious when businesses claim they are "losing money" as they are basing it on what they believe they would get if they got what they want.

Medicare pays 80%, it always has. The 20% is up to the patient, so there is nothing unusual about patients paying "cash".

It's a tug of war between Medicare, hospitals, doctor salaries, and patients pocket books.

Check this out.

0131376D: Stock Quote - Mayo Clinic/Rochester MN - Bloomberg

Mayo Clinic/Rochester MN has stock holders. Stock holders need to see sufficient profit. Non-profits don't have stock holders. I don't find a Glendale stock though a search returned an alternative to your article on the exact subject.

Mayo Clinic to Turn Away Some Medicaid Patients - Yahoo Voices - voices.yahoo.com

and it says, "Mayo executives may feel that the population that they really serve are stockholders and highly paid executives at their hospitals". That may or may not be true.

And I am sure this is true, "practice of charging high rates to wealthier patients. Often one hears of the king of small country flying out to the Mayo Clinic to have a medical procedure or test performed."

I've always wondered about the differential between Medicare and the healthcare market. What should happen is care should be provided as long as the average collected on Medicare patients is above or at cost.

When Kaiser stops seeing Medicare patient, now there is a problem.

While I appreciate a lot of your points, I am not sure how they are supposed to stick together.

Maybe we should go a few steps at a time so I can understand your point.

It clearly says they are losing money......on medicare patients.

It didn't say they were taking an overall net loss.

That was my question....which was somewhat rhetorical. How are they making it up ?

I am not sure about the balance sheet (I reread your comments....you didn't say it was a balance sheet thing...my mistake). It seems like this would be more related to an income statement.

The only way they could say this and not be losing money on medicare patients is is they somehow are talking about an opportunity cost.

Equilibrium price for medicare confused me. There isn't one, is there ? The government sets it (or it would be artificial). And what they are saying (I am asking as much as saying) is that it isn't enough because it does not cover costs.

 

[Listening]

PMZ maintains that the Mayo clinic is lying; that they are Republican propagandists?

PMZ is obviously insane.

I would say that whining is closer to the truth than lying. It's a common affliction with business now that they own their own political party and a 24/7/365 propaganda outlet.

The fact that the US spends 2X every other developed country is the result of people paying attention to health care delivery whining.

It has to change if we are ever to return to global competitiveness.

Please show me where the propaganda machine said medicare patients are going to have to pony up if they want to see doctors at the Mayo Clinic in Glendale AZ.

Please...back up your bulls**t once in a while.

 

[itfitzme]

I would agree that the article's title is misleading. When I went back and looked at it, I wondered how they could tell people to show up with cash and then not accept them (of course, then they would not have been medicare patients....as I understand it).

Never-the-less...the article shows that Mayo was losing money out the ass on medicare patients.

Apparently, they are keeping some form of this....the article said it was a two year program (and I know when it first started people went nuts)....but this is now four years later.

Seems reasonable to me. Medicare pays some....you pay some.

Bottom line is Mayo was getting hosed by medicare.

What isn't talked about is how they absorbed all those losses. You would think it was made up in some way......like charging the hell out of others. Wonder what the rest of the books look like ?

It doesn't show that they were losing money. It isn't a balance sheet. Price doesn't equal cost. It just shows that they can hold prices higher than the general equilibrium price for Medicare. We'd have to see the balance sheet to demonstrate they were getting "hosed". Often, they aren't, it just bites into their profits. Often, far fewer people actually pay there portion than owe it. Once health care is provided, it can't be taken back. Hospitals write off a lot. I'm always cautious when businesses claim they are "losing money" as they are basing it on what they believe they would get if they got what they want.

Medicare pays 80%, it always has. The 20% is up to the patient, so there is nothing unusual about patients paying "cash".

It's a tug of war between Medicare, hospitals, doctor salaries, and patients pocket books.

Check this out.

0131376D: Stock Quote - Mayo Clinic/Rochester MN - Bloomberg

Mayo Clinic/Rochester MN has stock holders. Stock holders need to see sufficient profit. Non-profits don't have stock holders. I don't find a Glendale stock though a search returned an alternative to your article on the exact subject.

Mayo Clinic to Turn Away Some Medicaid Patients - Yahoo Voices - voices.yahoo.com

and it says, "Mayo executives may feel that the population that they really serve are stockholders and highly paid executives at their hospitals". That may or may not be true.

And I am sure this is true, "practice of charging high rates to wealthier patients. Often one hears of the king of small country flying out to the Mayo Clinic to have a medical procedure or test performed."

I've always wondered about the differential between Medicare and the healthcare market. What should happen is care should be provided as long as the average collected on Medicare patients is above or at cost.

When Kaiser stops seeing Medicare patient, now there is a problem.

While I appreciate a lot of your points, I am not sure how they are supposed to stick together.

Maybe we should go a few steps at a time so I can understand your point.

It clearly says they are losing money......on medicare patients.

It didn't say they were taking an overall net loss.

That was my question....which was somewhat rhetorical. How are they making it up ?

I am not sure about the balance sheet. It seems like this would be more related to an income statement.

The only way they could say this and not be losing money on medicare patients is is they somehow are talking about an opportunity cost.

You are right, income statement.

Yes, that would be opportunity cost, exactly. We've seen that numerous times, claims of losing money where it was opportunity costs.

Even then, "For-profit hospitals get a tax write-off on uncollected debts"

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/faqs-on-hospital-bills/

Why I'm cautious to buy into "losing money" reports. They are often not in the red while still claiming "losing money".

---------------------------------------------

Here is something interesting;

http://www.ncmedicaljournal.com/wp-content/uploads/NCMJ/mar-apr-05/Yarbrough.pdf

CEO, with MBA, of a hospital conflagrates earnings before taxes with profits then claims that profit is required in order to invest in capital equipment.

"From a financial perspective, accounting for healthcare is much like accounting for any other type of service. We must have enough revenue to cover our costs. If we cannot make a profit, we cannot replace worn out plant and equipment or invest in the latest technologies. However, there is one difference unique to the healthcare field. That is the enormous amount of free care and under-paid care we deliver. We must charge each patient more to recover the unreimbursed cost of care provided to the uninsured and “government payers.” As a result, hospitals write off 40-50% of what they charge. "

"Free care" is certainly not Medicare and Medicaid. Yeah, free care is an issue. Still, at best it would be "under-paid" and there in is the question, "under-paid" compared to what? Cost or price?

In terms of the profit requirement for investment, it is simply not correct. The entire economy runs on investment loans from banks. Without loans from banks there is no money supply. Sure, as a CEO of a company, I like having profits instead of paying interest on loans but it isn't required.

And, of course, "Profits" are after taxes have been paid from earnings. If earnings are zero, after deductions, write offs and interest, then there are no taxes. This means that profits aren't a requirement in any manner, except paying stock holders.

If, in fact, a hospital was truly operating in the red, after a couple of years, they would be gone.

MBA's aren't economists and typically present things differently. If Medicare is really paying below actual cost, that is one thing. If they are just not paying at the price point, it's another. I was hoping this article by a CEO MBA running a hospital would present enough to show it. Unfortunately, it's an opinion piece that I'd claim only as a stock holder, not as an economist.

 

[itfitzme]

This may be better

Hospital working toward erasing operating losses

And he says,

"reversing a trend of operating losses". That I will buy as actual losses.

He goes on to say;

"Since 2008, the hospital has been operating at a loss in every year except 2009. Grant money received by the hospital was the only thing that pushed the hospital into the black that year. For the period of fiscal years 2008-2013, operating losses total $1.832 million.
This year’s operating loss;
For the fiscal year 2012-13 that ended June 30, Fink said the hospital’s unaudited loss appears to be $956,000. Auditors are in the process of completing the audit. "

There are a bunch of details that qualify the losses though not to any point that is significant.

The article continues with;

"In terms of operating margin, the best peer hospitals operated at a 7.6 percent profit margin with the median at 4.2 percent in 2012."

That means that, excluding the hospital in examination, the market runs at profit level. This makes this hospital losses an point anecdote, not a trend.

It's a better piece, believable in actual numbers.

And it brought a point to mind, in the free market, a company operating at a loss is suppose to go under and leave the market to the efficient competition. Reporting by a single hospital kinda doesn't really differentiate between burdened and inefficient.

 

[PMZ]

PMZ maintains that the Mayo clinic is lying; that they are Republican propagandists?

PMZ is obviously insane.

I would say that whining is closer to the truth than lying. It's a common affliction with business now that they own their own political party and a 24/7/365 propaganda outlet.

The fact that the US spends 2X every other developed country is the result of people paying attention to health care delivery whining.

It has to change if we are ever to return to global competitiveness.

Please show me where the propaganda machine said medicare patients are going to have to pony up if they want to see doctors at the Mayo Clinic in Glendale AZ.

Please...back up your bulls**t once in a while.

It's part of the Republican propaganda assault on health care progress.

 

[Listening]

It's not easy to help people. There are obstacles at every turn. That's one of the reasons that they need help.

ACA is help.

Yeah...right over a cliff.

Easy to say. Impossible to prove.

No less difficult to prove than the statement ACA is help.

Which is stupid anyway.

It might help some...but hurt a whole lot of others.....

Right now the net looks pretty bad for you and your boy.

 

[Listening]

I would say that whining is closer to the truth than lying. It's a common affliction with business now that they own their own political party and a 24/7/365 propaganda outlet.

The fact that the US spends 2X every other developed country is the result of people paying attention to health care delivery whining.

It has to change if we are ever to return to global competitiveness.

Please show me where the propaganda machine said medicare patients are going to have to pony up if they want to see doctors at the Mayo Clinic in Glendale AZ.

Please...back up your bulls**t once in a while.

It's part of the Republican propaganda assault on health care progress.

No, show it. Provide a link.

You are beyond lazy.

 

[PMZ]

Yeah...right over a cliff.

Easy to say. Impossible to prove.

No less difficult to prove than the statement ACA is help.

Which is stupid anyway.

It might help some...but hurt a whole lot of others.....

Right now the net looks pretty bad for you and your boy.

Actually, the only ones hurt are those who hoped to duck the responsibility of providing for their own health care costs. Everyone else benefits.

 

[PMZ]

Please show me where the propaganda machine said medicare patients are going to have to pony up if they want to see doctors at the Mayo Clinic in Glendale AZ.

Please...back up your bulls**t once in a while.

It's part of the Republican propaganda assault on health care progress.

No, show it. Provide a link.

You are beyond lazy.

You are beyond uninformed.

 

[Listening]

This may be better

Hospital working toward erasing operating losses

And he says,

"Since 2008, the hospital has been operating at a loss in every year except 2009. Grant money received by the hospital was the only thing that pushed the hospital into the black that year. For the period of fiscal years 2008-2013, operating losses total $1.832 million.
This year’s operating loss;
For the fiscal year 2012-13 that ended June 30, Fink said the hospital’s unaudited loss appears to be $956,000. Auditors are in the process of completing the audit. "

"In terms of operating margin, the best peer hospitals operated at a 7.6 percent profit margin with the median at 4.2 percent in 2012."

That means that, excluding the hospital in examination, the market runs at profit level. This makes this hospital losses an point anecdote, not a trend.

It's a better piece, believable in actual numbers.

And it brought a point to mind, in the free market, a company operating at a loss is suppose to go under and leave the market to the efficient competition. Reporting by a single hospital kinda doesn't really differentiate between burdened and inefficient.

Nobody claimed it was a trend. But it did occur.

As we already discussed, it would be good to see how the numbers work in this instance.

But the man point was that Mayo pulled the trigger on something that was not very popular in the Valley. However, they held their guns and cited these numbers repeatedly.

Your final statement is true, but not something that refutes their action. That is what I was saying to PMS before...they are making it up (somehow). No company can operate in the red for long....and Mayo was not touching it's other clinics. AZ has lots of seniors and Glendale is not as nice as Scottsdale. Maybe that is where they were taking the hit.

The primary point being that medicare wasn't keeping up. I have a radiologist friend who has indicated their revenues are already a lot lower the last six months than ever before. They are not quite sure what to do.....

And he also states that there is a lot of concern about the ability to renew the industry. Despite PMS's claim....there is continual talk of a doctor shortage.

Trends Toward Greater Doctor Shortage Worry State Legislators - NJ Spotlight

 

[Listening]

It's part of the Republican propaganda assault on health care progress.

No, show it. Provide a link.

You are beyond lazy.

You are beyond uninformed.

Still no link....didn't think so.

Your idea of debate is to look at your fat ass in the mirror and tell yourself you are smart.

 

[koshergrl]

It's part of the Republican propaganda assault on health care progress.

No, show it. Provide a link.

You are beyond lazy.

You are beyond uninformed.

Lol.. the fact that you can't back up your statement with a source other than.."I said so"....that proves that someone ELSE is uninformed?

Yeah, cuz only the uninformed ask extremist freaks to verify their wacky rhetoric.

Even more laughable...that you claim supporting evidence is *not* evidence, and that people who have provided verification to support their statements, while you have not, are "uninformed".

It's like being in opposite land.

 

[Listening]

No, show it. Provide a link.

You are beyond lazy.

You are beyond uninformed.

Lol.. the fact that you can't back up your statement with a source other than.."I said so"....that proves that someone ELSE is uninformed?

Yeah, cuz only the uninformed ask extremist freaks to verify their wacky rhetoric.

Even more laughable...that you claim supporting evidence is *not* evidence, and that people who have provided verification to support their statements, while you have not, are "uninformed".

It's like being in opposite land.

Oh now....we all know Fox News tells the Mayo what to do......

 

[PMZ]

No, show it. Provide a link.

You are beyond lazy.

You are beyond uninformed.

Still no link....didn't think so.

Your idea of debate is to look at your fat ass in the mirror and tell yourself you are smart.

If I was as stupid as I get called here by people like you, I'd get ignored.

The reason that I don't is not that I'm wrong but closer to right than the gospel according to Fox.

Your anger is the reaction to understanding what you fell for.

Don't worry, you'll get over it.

 

[koshergrl]

You are beyond uninformed.

Still no link....didn't think so.

Your idea of debate is to look at your fat ass in the mirror and tell yourself you are smart.

If I was as stupid as I get called here by people like you, I'd get ignored.

The reason that I don't is not that I'm wrong but closer to right than the gospel according to Fox.

Your anger is the reaction to understanding what you fell for.

Don't worry, you'll get over it.

Wow you just said a whole lot of nothing.


Again, why can't you link to evidence of your assertion? We linked ours....

Do you know the definition of "evidence"? How about "verify"?

 

[PMZ]

You are beyond uninformed.

Lol.. the fact that you can't back up your statement with a source other than.."I said so"....that proves that someone ELSE is uninformed?

Yeah, cuz only the uninformed ask extremist freaks to verify their wacky rhetoric.

Even more laughable...that you claim supporting evidence is *not* evidence, and that people who have provided verification to support their statements, while you have not, are "uninformed".

It's like being in opposite land.

Oh now....we all know Fox News tells the Mayo what to do......

Fox is not that stupid. They're actually very good at what they do which is selling the Republican Party to the lightly informed.

So what they tell you is that all government is incompetent, and all business is your loving and caring friend.

Then you read what that article said and think, there's proof.

 

[Listening]

Still no link....didn't think so.

Your idea of debate is to look at your fat ass in the mirror and tell yourself you are smart.

If I was as stupid as I get called here by people like you, I'd get ignored.

The reason that I don't is not that I'm wrong but closer to right than the gospel according to Fox.

Your anger is the reaction to understanding what you fell for.

Don't worry, you'll get over it.

Wow you just said a whole lot of nothing.


Again, why can't you link to evidence of your assertion? We linked ours....

Do you know the definition of "evidence"? How about "verify"?

Don't hold your breath......

 

[Listening]

Lol.. the fact that you can't back up your statement with a source other than.."I said so"....that proves that someone ELSE is uninformed?

Yeah, cuz only the uninformed ask extremist freaks to verify their wacky rhetoric.

Even more laughable...that you claim supporting evidence is *not* evidence, and that people who have provided verification to support their statements, while you have not, are "uninformed".

It's like being in opposite land.

Oh now....we all know Fox News tells the Mayo what to do......

Fox is not that stupid. They're actually very good at what they do which is selling the Republican Party to the lightly informed.

So what they tell you is that all government is incompetent, and all business is your loving and caring friend.

Then you read what that article said and think, there's proof.

There's nothing...except a hole where your brain belongs.

You are right....you should be ignored.

 

[Sunshine]

Obama can do what he wants. He can kill Americans without due process of law. He can take away your insurance coverage. He cannot be dealt with. He is black. To deal with him appropriately through the impeachment process would simply create one more black martyr. Most are not willing to do that.

What he has done with the insurance scandal will likely give Republicans control of the government for at least the next 20 years. We are just waiting patiently for it to come back to us. And it will.

 

[BlackSand]

Fox is not that stupid. They're actually very good at what they do which is selling the Republican Party to the lightly informed.

So what they tell you is that all government is incompetent, and all business is your loving and caring friend.

Then you read what that article said and think, there's proof.

Speaking of Fox News, double talk, lightly informed or anything else you want to call the bullshit coming from the media ...

Blue Cross-Blue Shield in North Carolina says that they can work with the President's request to reinstate health plans for one year (after 2014 mid-terms) in attempts to comply with the lie President Obama told before.
They also say that if you want to have the plan you had before ... It won't actually be the same plan it was ... And will cost you more for additional requirements to become compliant with the law.

In others words ... It won't be the plan you had and will cost you more ... You don't even have to listen to Fox News, because NPR will tell you that much.

.