The Gospel of Unbelief

[CrimsonWhite]

I have faith that my beliefs are correct. :happy2:

Seriously, I agree there is a distinction between faith and belief. Belief is something which is based either on evidence or surmise. Faith needs no basis in fact... hence it being "taken on faith".

exactly

 

[LOki]

No.
I'm not equating Christianity to atheism. Thanks for trying.

You are calling them both religions...you are trying to equate them.

Nope. 4 and 14 are not equal, yet they remain, both, numbers--asserting they are numbers is not an attempt to "equate" them. Give up.

And so is the disbelief of a moon made of cheese, which is why your definition of religion is useless.

Nope. Keep trying.

How about Webster's definition: Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power accepted as the creator and governor of the universe.

Still the reigning favorite logical fallacy of "the faithful" world wide ... DING DING DING!!! PETITIO PRINCIPII!!!

Since the one definition provided by Webster that is logically fallacious is unacceptable on those grounds, we're stuck with the next one that makes some sense:<blockquote>religion:
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices</blockquote>Except that the word "religious" in the definition of "religion," makes the definition self referential--unacceptable.

So let's also get rid of the self referential term and replace it with one that describes "religious," is common amongst all "religious" doctrine, and is undissociable from "religion"--"statement of faith."

I also find "institutionalized" unfairly restrictive in that the possesion and practice of an indiviual's religion is not contingent upon religious "institution." But religion, and it's practice are certainly formalized, and "formalized" is a fair, even if more generous, synonym for "institutionalized." So let's switch that one out, so we can include all the protestants who broke with the religious institution yet none-the-less possess religion.

Thus:<blockquote>religion: A personal set of formalized attitudes, beliefs, and practices based on a statement of faith.</blockquote>Keep trying MissileMan; the effort is appreciated because I think a better definition of religion might be useful--but those that assert a logical fallacy are the definitions that are useless.

1st Kings 18: 17-40

I just read it and I didn't get the sense that I was being commanded to kill non-believers. Elijah slaughtered some idol worshipers. This is supposed to be taken literally?

Yes.

It was story of of the lord cleansing his land of idol worshippers.

Via the instrument of Elijah slaughtering idol worshipers who did not belive in Elijah's God.

This, of course, wouldn't be advocated today.

And of course those who do not advocate that today are heretics. Yes?

Atheism is the lack of belief in a diety. Therefore, it is a lack of faith.

You can exrcise faith, without believing in a deity--lottery players do it all the time. Nice Try.

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/religion

Since religion is the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance, then atheism obviously can't be a religion. But don't worry, the constitution still protects your right to not to believe in anything.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! Regarding your attempt to turn M-W.com against me, refer to the discussion of the definition of religion above. Thanks!

Atheism, on the other hand, is faith in the non-existence of God. Atheists don't just lack faith that there is a God. They posess faith that there is no God. I think atheism is a religion.

GOLD STAR FOR HOBBIT!!!!

Loki. You don'twant government to deal with religious issues, but then how can it deal with moral issues?

You make the unsupported presumption that morality is contingent upon belief in God. Bad form, try again.

The truth is that secularists want to eliminate traditional religion as a source of values.

That is the lie asserted by theocrats.

It will make it easier to implement their own agenda which is contrary to traditional religious values.

Secular governemt is consistent with preserving traditional religious values--already demonstrated.

Socialism is stealing.

Another useless diversion.

No one is talking about socialism. Socialism is an economic system, not a religious system, in any event. Morality exists separate and apart from "religion".

TESTIFY!!!

Jesus was a socialist, knucklehead!

Special LOLs!!!!!

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Loki, explain to me, in your words, the foundations of this Atheist religion. Please.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

No one is talking about socialism. Socialism is an economic system, not a religious system, in any event. Morality exists separate and apart from "religion". And our laws were based on philosophical beliefs as to the relationship between man and government -- the social structure -- not the relationship between man and a supreme being.

But how do you decide what should be the government enforced rules of the social structure, the public morality. This is where you keep diverting. You don't want this discussion.

I bolded a section above. What are the foundations of these philosophical beliefs? What were these beliefs? Is this basis you speak of documented? Is there a canon per se?

 

[MissileMan]

Atheism, on the other hand, is faith in the non-existence of God. Atheists don't just lack faith that there is a God. They posess faith that there is no God. I think atheism is a religion.

Faith is belief even in the absence of any evidence. Faith is NOT disbelief even in the absence of any evidence. I don't believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, leprechauns, or unicorns either. That's not a matter of faith, it's a matter of reality.

I'm surprised some are so quick to diminish their faith by comparing it to lesser, non-faith beliefs to futher an argument.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

Faith is belief even in the absence of any evidence. Faith is NOT disbelief even in the absence of any evidence. I don't believe in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, leprechauns, or unicorns either. That's not a matter of faith, it's a matter of reality.

I'm surprised some are so quick to diminish their faith by comparing it to lesser, non-faith beliefs to futher an argument.

faith (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or
thing.

2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
See Synonyms at belief, trust.

3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's
supporters.

4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in
God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.

6. A set of principles or beliefs.

 

[MissileMan]

Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

Atheists believe with strong conviction that there is no God. Atheism doesn't lack some intangible idea like faith, belief, etc. It simply lacks a higher power of any sort.

Atheism isn't a "system of religious beliefs" either. Disbelief in an invisible, intangible entity with no evidence of its existence isn't faith, it's a logical conclusion.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

Atheism isn't a "system of religious beliefs" either. Disbelief in an invisible, intangible entity with no evidence of its existence isn't faith, it's a logical conclusion.

Says in my definition that faith can be based on an idea.
Without 100% accurate proof, doesn't that make a religion an idea?

 

[MissileMan]

Since the one definition provided by Webster that is logically fallacious is unacceptable on those grounds, we're stuck with the next one that makes some sense:<blockquote>religion:
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices</blockquote>Except that the word "religious" in the definition of "religion," makes the definition self referential--unacceptable.

So let's also get rid of the self referential term and replace it with one that describes "religious," is common amongst all "religious" doctrine, and is undissociable from "religion"--"statement of faith."

I also find "institutionalized" unfairly restrictive in that the possesion and practice of an indiviual's religion is not contingent upon religious "institution." But religion, and it's practice are certainly formalized, and "formalized" is a fair, even if more generous, synonym for "institutionalized." So let's switch that one out, so we can include all the protestants who broke with the religious institution yet none-the-less possess religion.

Thus:<blockquote>religion: A personal set of formalized attitudes, beliefs, and practices based on a statement of faith.</blockquote>Keep trying MissileMan; the effort is appreciated because I think a better definition of religion might be useful--but those that assert a logical fallacy are the definitions that are useless.

Interesting tactic...make up your own definition for religion. You left out a reference to the supernatural in your definition. It most assuredly needs to be included. AND, when you include the reference to the supernatural, it WILL exclude atheism as a religion.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Ok. Loki has descended into "you're a liar" mode and is now officially a troll.

 

[LOki]

Loki, explain to me, in your words, the foundations of this Atheist religion. Please.

The founding statement of faith for the Athieist religion is: There is no God.

 

[LOki]

Interesting tactic...make up your own definition for religion. You left out a reference to the supernatural in your definition. It most assuredly needs to be included. AND, when you include the reference to the supernatural, it WILL exclude atheism as a religion.

I actually didn't "make up" a definition--certianly not in the way implied--I showed my work.

Show yours.

Find a way to put in "supernatural without being self referential and question begging and we'll discuss.

 

[LOki]

Ok. Loki has descended into "you're a liar" mode and is now officially a troll.

HAHAHAHA!
DIVERT!
DIVERT!
DIVERT!

LOLsome!

 

[CrimsonWhite]

The founding statement of faith for the Athieist religion is: There is no God.

So you have faith that there is no God. Yet you capitilized the word God. Go to mirror and say these words:

"I have faith that there is no God."

If this doesn't sound asinine to you, then slap yourself and say it again. :duh3:

 

[MissileMan]

I actually didn't "make up" a definition--certianly not in the way implied--I showed my work.

Show yours.

Find a way to put in "supernatural without being self referential and question begging and we'll discuss.

I pointed out that the definition of religion you made up is lacking a reference to the supernatural, you fix it. I'm quite content to use the definitions provided by the dictionary.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

So you have faith that there is no God. Yet you capitilized the word God. Go to mirror and say these words:

"I have faith that there is no God."

If this doesn't sound asinine to you, then slap yourself and say it again. :duh3:

Capitilization of the word "God" isn't exactly a measuring stick for His (or his) existence.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Capitilization of the word "God" isn't exactly a measuring stick for His (or his) existence.

No, but it shows respect and reverence to the word. The is the purpose of capitilization. Why show respect and reverance to something that doesn't exist?

 

[LOki]

So you have faith that there is no God.

Did I say this? I think not.

Yet you capitilized the word God.

So I did, what of it?

Go to mirror and say these words:

"I have faith that there is no God."

To what purpose?

If this doesn't sound asinine to you, then slap yourself and say it again. :duh3:

What have I said that makes you suggest that I wouldn't find that statement "asinine?"

 

[The ClayTaurus]

No, but it shows respect and reverence to the word. The is the purpose of capitilization. Why show respect and reverance to something that doesn't exist?

Perhaps out of respect towards believers who do exist.

 

[LOki]

Capitilization of the word "God" isn't exactly a measuring stick for His (or his) existence.

No, but it shows respect and reverence to the word. The is the purpose of capitilization. Why show respect and reverance to something that doesn't exist?

ClayTaurus is correct.

I have not asserted that God doesn't exist, but even if I had, I could still manage the courtesy of respecting that others believe in God to the extent that I'd capitalize His name.