The Gospel of Unbelief

[jillian]

I would guess that most Secularists are Atheists or at least Humanists.

You'd be incorrect. Belief that government has no place endorsing or fostering religion in society has nothing to do with one's personal religious beliefs.

Most people fall for the idea that a "Secular government" means that it is "fair and impartial".

No, it simply means that government isn't in the religion business at all.

I disagree. I do not believe it was the intention of our founders to establish a "Secular" government but only to prevent any certain Belief (religion) to take over the government.

Even assuming that you are correct, doesn't incorporating the dogma of a religion or a sect of a religion into law de facto elevate that group's religious beliefs?

Our laws all come from our individual beliefs and therefore religious beliefs as well as non-religious beliefs are duly represented in our laws.

That's not quite correct. Our laws have to do with preservation of individual freedom and based on a shared morality which has nothing to do with religion. We make murder illegal because as a society we believe that killing is immoral, whether one believes in a divine being or not. We also make murder illegal because such an act deprives another of his or her own freedoms. We prosecute theft because it deprives another of their property rights and because as a society we have agreement that what one person owns belongs to that person and no individual has the right to interfere in that.

IMO Secularism is the big canard being pushed upon this country by the likes of the ACLU and others who wish to completely denude our government of anything religious in nature.

Because religion does not belong having anything to do with government in this country.

Our country is OF the people, BY the people, and FOR the people.

Which has what to do with anything?

You can't separate people from their beliefs

Who's trying to separate you from your own personal beliefs?

and you can't separate their beliefs from government within the Constitutional framework. How can you totally separate religion from government?

Easily....

I think Dilloduck's question nicely sums up this dilemma: " A state elects a man to the Senate because he is a fine upstanding Christian. Is it constutional for him to even take office?" Frankly, my guess is that the ACLU and its ilk would eventually like to see any Christian barred from office.

That's silliness. (not Dillo's question, your comment about the ACLU).

Secularism is a belief and is not necessarily the "neutral, fair approach" that you probably think it is. I personally do not want to see only Secularist ideals replace Christian ideals that currently exist (through the people's vote) within our government and its laws and which have been there from the very beginning of our country.

And there is exactly the problem with your premise. Why "Christian" beliefs. This country shelters, not only Christians, but Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and every other belief under the sun. Preventing the elevation of "Christian" beliefs is EXACTLY what the Constitution requires.

BTW, the founding fathers? Mostly deists who wanted absolutely no Church of America.

Secularism and its backers has its own agenda.

Yes...to preserve the wall between Church and State.

Coersion comes in many forms.

Including the coersion of people who cry "Christian-bashing" every time anyone tries to preserve what we have always had and prevent the creation of a theocracy.

 

[dilloduck]

You'd be incorrect. Belief that government has no place endorsing or fostering religion in society has nothing to do with one's personal religious beliefs.



No, it simply means that government isn't in the religion business at all.



Even assuming that you are correct, doesn't incorporating the dogma of a religion or a sect of a religion into law de facto elevate that group's religious beliefs?



That's not quite correct. Our laws have to do with preservation of individual freedom and based on a shared morality which has nothing to do with religion. We make murder illegal because as a society we believe that killing is immoral, whether one believes in a divine being or not. We also make murder illegal because such an act deprives another of his or her own freedoms. We prosecute theft because it deprives another of their property rights and because as a society we have agreement that what one person owns belongs to that person and no individual has the right to interfere in that.



Because religion does not belong having anything to do with government in this country.



Which has what to do with anything?



Who's trying to separate you from your own personal beliefs?



Easily....



That's silliness. (not Dillo's question, your comment about the ACLU).



And there is exactly the problem with your premise. Why "Christian" beliefs. This country shelters, not only Christians, but Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and every other belief under the sun. Preventing the elevation of "Christian" beliefs is EXACTLY what the Constitution requires.

BTW, the founding fathers? Mostly deists who wanted absolutely no Church of America.



Yes...to preserve the wall between Church and State.



Including the coersion of people who cry "Christian-bashing" every time anyone tries to preserve what we have always had and prevent the creation of a theocracy.

Should government protect peoples right to BE religious ?

 

[Dr Grump]

and science is gonna figure it all out for us soon? :rotflmao:

Will you ever figure out that logic, science, intellect, will never get you any closer to any 'truth' than a spiritual belief will?

I have a belief in science. It's figured out a lot more stuff than spiritual belief has...

 

[Dr Grump]

Should government protect peoples right to BE religious ?

If somebody is infringing on those rights? Yep!

 

[dilloduck]

I have a belief in science. It's figured out a lot more stuff than spiritual belief has...

ya---it keeps on telling me that but you know what?---in a year or two it's all different again----and where's the big answers??---I mean the REALLY important ones?

 

[Dr Grump]

ya---it keeps on telling me that but you know what?---in a year or two it's all different again----and where's the big answers??---I mean the REALLY important ones?

Well, how many shots of spiritual belief protects you from TB or smallpox? What about a heart transplant? Or sending pixels around the world? Or flying an aeroplane?

And which big questions? Like "why are we here" kinda stuff?

 

[dilloduck]

Well, how many shots of spiritual belief protects you from TB or smallpox? What about a heart transplant? Or sending pixels around the world? Or flying an aeroplane?

And which big questions? Like "why are we here" kinda stuff?

I knew you would get there !

 

[The ClayTaurus]

ya---it keeps on telling me that but you know what?---in a year or two it's all different again----and where's the big answers??---I mean the REALLY important ones?

So are you shunning science? Better put that keyboard down. It could be the wrong answer.

 

[Dr Grump]

I knew you would get there !

I could go on all day about that. It's a whole other thread Dillo... :happy2:

 

[CrimsonWhite]

1st Kings 18: 17-40

Still trying to divert, eh?

I just read it and I didn't get the sense that I was being commanded to kill non-believers. Elijah slaughtered some idol worshipers. This is supposed to be taken literally? It was story of of the lord cleansing his land of idol worshippers. This, of course, wouldn't be advocated today.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

On the basis that Athiesm--that there is no deity--is a statement of faith.

Main Entry: athe·ism
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=atheism

Atheism is the lack of belief in a diety. Therefore, it is a lack of faith.

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/religion

Since religion is the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance, then atheism obviously can't be a religion. But don't worry, the constitution still protects your right to not to believe in anything.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

So are you shunning science? Better put that keyboard down. It could be the wrong answer.

What science can't be wrong? Hell, I can't even get a straight answer on whether or not eggs are good for me.

 

[Hobbit]

Main Entry: athe·ism
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=atheism

Atheism is the lack of belief in a diety. Therefore, it is a lack of faith.

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/religion

Since religion is the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance, then atheism obviously can't be a religion. But don't worry, the constitution still protects your right to not to believe in anything.

I disagree. A lack of faith would mean a passive lack of any definitive belief on whether there is or is not a God. This is closer to agnosticism than anything, but doesn't really have a word, as those who share this view are too apathetic to name it.

Atheism, on the other hand, is faith in the non-existence of God. Atheists don't just lack faith that there is a God. They posess faith that there is no God. I think atheism is a religion.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I disagree. A lack of faith would mean a passive lack of any definitive belief on whether there is or is not a God. This is closer to agnosticism than anything, but doesn't really have a word, as those who share this view are too apathetic to name it.

Atheism, on the other hand, is faith in the non-existence of God. Atheists don't just lack faith that there is a God. They posess faith that there is no God. I think atheism is a religion.

Oops I proved part of your point for you. The fourth part of the definition would define Atheism as a religion, but a faithless one. Belief and faith are not one and the same. Religion and faith are not mutually exclusive. Faith is the feeling that a higher authority is with us. Atheism is the lack of faith thereof. Their cannot be faith in non-existence. This would be erroneous, at best.

 

[Hobbit]

Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

Atheists believe with strong conviction that there is no God. Atheism doesn't lack some intangible idea like faith, belief, etc. It simply lacks a higher power of any sort.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

Atheists believe with strong conviction that there is no God. Atheism doesn't lack some intangible idea like faith, belief, etc. It simply lacks a higher power of any sort.

You got me with Webster's. I still view faith and belief as two seperate entities. I feel they are not one and the same. Believing in Santa Claus is one thing, having faith that he exists is another. Get what I'm saying?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Loki. You don'twant government to deal with religious issues, but then how can it deal with moral issues? The truth is that secularists want to eliminate traditional religion as a source of values. It will make it easier to implement their own agenda which is contrary to traditional religious values. Socialism is stealing.

 

[jillian]

Loki. You don'twant government to deal with religious issues, but then how can it deal with moral issues? The truth is that secularists want to eliminate traditional religion as a source of values. It will make it easier to implement their own agenda which is contrary to traditional religious values. Socialism is stealing.

No one is talking about socialism. Socialism is an economic system, not a religious system, in any event. Morality exists separate and apart from "religion". And our laws were based on philosophical beliefs as to the relationship between man and government -- the social structure -- not the relationship between man and a supreme being.

 

[Nuc]

Loki. You don'twant government to deal with religious issues, but then how can it deal with moral issues? The truth is that secularists want to eliminate traditional religion as a source of values. It will make it easier to implement their own agenda which is contrary to traditional religious values. Socialism is stealing.

Jesus was a socialist, knucklehead!

 

[jillian]

You got me with Webster's. I still view faith and belief as two seperate entities. I feel they are not one and the same. Believing in Santa Claus is one thing, having faith that he exists is another. Get what I'm saying?

I have faith that my beliefs are correct. :happy2:

Seriously, I agree there is a distinction between faith and belief. Belief is something which is based either on evidence or surmise. Faith needs no basis in fact... hence it being "taken on faith".