CDZ The growing peril of war with China over Taiwan

[Mac-7]

If you impose tariffs you don't have free access.

Every country has tariffs

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

The hypocrisy of waving the Declaration while ignoring that it was not applied to slaves.

What year was that?

What year is it now?

When the OP waved the Declaration? Why, I do believe it was this year.

Further, I do believe it is this year, this year.

That slavery ended brother?

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

How many lives is it worth? Would it be more advantageous to let the Chinese have it and have it be a thorn in their side (like Hong Kong).

Thats total nonsense

china is CRUSHING all opposition in Hong Kong

and using it as a warning to people like you not to mess with them

this “We win by losing” attitude has to stop

They are absorbing Hong Kong and, like a cancer, if it doesn't kill the Chinese Communist Party it will certainly make them sick and will likely spread everywhere. The HK people have tasted freedom.

As for the “We win by losing” thing, it certainly sounds better than "lose by winning". Did we ever lose a battle in Vietnam?

just like Tienemen Square did?

Just like the internet did?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

but now thanks to stupid trade policy that has grown the chinese economy and the chinese military the CCP thinks its powerful enough to invade

When the U.S. interposed itself into the post WWII civil war in China to save the Guomindang Army, helping it escape to Taiwan and then preventing the Red Army pursuing it, we guaranteed that civil war would continue, with us in the middle.

The “Republic of China” on Taiwan was then a dictatorship (martial law existed until 1987) that claimed to be the one legitimate government of all China. Our recognition of the mainland communist government as the “only China” recognized and seated in the Security Council was forced on us by reality and our desire to use “Red China” against the USSR. This also set the stage for Taiwan’s fast economic and political development.

China, long before its admission to the WTO, had developed nuclear weapons and “reformed and opened” its economy. Had China not been brought into the world trading community in 2001 it would likely have degenerated — not into a weaker but into a greater threat with a poorer population and more hostile nationalist leadership. Indeed, it may have come to resemble North Korea, but with thousands of nuclear weapons and 1.4 billion angry, poverty-stricken, brainwashed people.

 

[cnm]

That slavery ended brother?

The hypocrisy didn't.

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

That slavery ended brother?

The hypocrisy didn't.

So where did you move to?

 

[Mac-7]

but now thanks to stupid trade policy that has grown the chinese economy and the chinese military the CCP thinks its powerful enough to invade

When the U.S. interposed itself into the post WWII civil war in China to save the Guomindang Army, helping it escape to Taiwan and then preventing the Red Army pursuing it, we guaranteed that civil war would continue, with us in the middle.

The “Republic of China” on Taiwan was then a dictatorship (martial law existed until 1987) that claimed to be the one legitimate government of all China. Our recognition of the mainland communist government as the “only China” recognized and seated in the Security Council was forced on us by reality and our desire to use “Red China” against the USSR. This also set the stage for Taiwan’s fast economic and political development.

China, long before its admission to the WTO, had developed nuclear weapons and “reformed and opened” its economy. Had China not been brought into the world trading community in 2001 it would likely have degenerated — not into a weaker but into a greater threat with a poorer population and more hostile nationalist leadership. Indeed, it may have come to resemble North Korea, but with thousands of nuclear weapons and 1.4 billion angry, poverty-stricken, brainwashed people.

Your facts are correct but not your conclusions

The Kuomintang did claim all of mainland china following its retreat to formosa in 1949

and continues to do so even today

however modern Taiwan is a democracy and the people of Taiwan voted the Nationalists out of power and replaced that government with a party moving toward independence

the communists never had control of formosa

if the people of that island want independence they are entitled to have it

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

if the people of that island want independence they are entitled to have it

Unfortunately, this is not an abstract question of “wanting” or being “entitled” to anything. Personally, I would love to see a peaceful and self-confident China allowing an independent Taiwan ... flourishing side by side.

The “little kink” preventing such a happy outcome is 90 million CCP members, the People’s Liberation Army, and a billion non-CCP mainlanders who are dead set against it.

As long as China (quite reasonably) believes allowing an “independent” Taiwan (a Taiwan free to host American military) is a violation of its own national sovereignty, historically settled agreements, and a tremendous security threat ... it is idle to talk about who is “entitled” to what.

 

[Mac-7]

Some libs benefit from china

for many that means money

campaign contributions for politicians

or sweetheart deals for crackhead children of vice presidents

or cheap imported junk from china that lazy US businessmen can sell at a profit

but china directly or indirectly bribes our academics also

and china bullies sports thugs like we have in the NBA into remaining silent about human rights abuse in hong kong

and lets not leave out the eric swallwells in DC who get their compensation through free sex with chinese prostitutes/spies

yes, the CCP is very good at taking advantage of greedy or stupid Americans

 

[Mac-7]

As long as China (quite reasonably) believes allowing an “independent” Taiwan (a Taiwan free to host American military) is a violation of its own national sovereignty, historically settled agreements, and a tremendous security threat ... it is idle to talk about who is “entitled” to what.

So anything china believes or wants is ok with you if it avoids war?

China “believes” it is entitled to rule the world and get even for mistreatment by foreign countries in the 19th Century

It has no intention of being a peaceful and non aggressive member of the community of nations

 

[Correll]

Some libs benefit from china

for many that means money

campaign contributions for politicians

or sweetheart deals for crackhead children of vice presidents

or cheap imported junk from china that lazy US businessmen can sell at a profit

but china directly or indirectly bribes our academics also

and china bullies sports thugs like we have in the NBA into remaining silent about human rights abuse in hong kong

and lets not leave out the eric swallwells in DC who get their compensation through free sex with chinese prostitutes/spies

yes, the CCP is very good at taking advantage of greedy or stupid Americans

Evidence of lying. But, there is a lot of evidence for retarded and insane too.


It is a mystery. And not a good one.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

As long as China (quite reasonably) believes allowing an “independent” Taiwan (a Taiwan free to host American military) is a violation of its own national sovereignty, historically settled agreements, and a tremendous security threat ... it is idle to talk about who is “entitled” to what.

So anything china believes or wants is ok with you if it avoids war?

China “believes” it is entitled to rule the world and get even for mistreatment by foreign countries in the 19th Century

It has no intention of being a peaceful and non aggressive member of the community of nations

Because Mac-7 (and Correll) are afraid to address the specifics of what I — or noted diplomat Chas Freeman — actually wrote, they raise straw man arguments about China thinking itself “entitled to rule the world,” and try to put words into my mouth. This is no way to wage “civil debate” on the Taiwan issue in particular.

Re-uniting with Taiwan, or at least guaranteeing it not become a hostile and “independent” satellite of the U.S., is for China’s leaders and people a crucial matter of national sovereignty and security, not a stepping stone toward “world conquest.”

 

[Correll]

As long as China (quite reasonably) believes allowing an “independent” Taiwan (a Taiwan free to host American military) is a violation of its own national sovereignty, historically settled agreements, and a tremendous security threat ... it is idle to talk about who is “entitled” to what.

So anything china believes or wants is ok with you if it avoids war?

China “believes” it is entitled to rule the world and get even for mistreatment by foreign countries in the 19th Century

It has no intention of being a peaceful and non aggressive member of the community of nations

Because Mac-7 (and Correll) are afraid to address the specifics of what I — or noted diplomat Chas Freeman — actually wrote, they raise straw man arguments about China thinking itself “entitled to rule the world,” and try to put words into my mouth. This is no way to wage “civil debate” on the Taiwan issue in particular.

Re-uniting with Taiwan, or at least guaranteeing it not become a hostile and “independent” satellite of the U.S., is for China’s leaders and people a crucial matter of national sovereignty and security, not a stepping stone toward “world conquest.”

It is the conquest of a Free and Democratic Nation and you seem to have no problem with it.


You accept it as a legitimate goal. You have no mentioned the Freedom or human rights of the Taiwanese at all.

 

[DudleySmith]

The Biden Residency is a major farce force for Peace; Red China need only settle for how much of a bribe they want to offer Biden and the DNC for Taiwan, put a few DNC relatives on some big giant company's payroll as 'consultants', no experience needed, drug addiction and sick sexual fetishes a big plus.

 

[Mac-7]

As long as China (quite reasonably) believes allowing an “independent” Taiwan (a Taiwan free to host American military) is a violation of its own national sovereignty, historically settled agreements, and a tremendous security threat ... it is idle to talk about who is “entitled” to what.

So anything china believes or wants is ok with you if it avoids war?

China “believes” it is entitled to rule the world and get even for mistreatment by foreign countries in the 19th Century

It has no intention of being a peaceful and non aggressive member of the community of nations

Because Mac-7 (and Correll) are afraid to address the specifics of what I — or noted diplomat Chas Freeman — actually wrote, they raise straw man arguments about China thinking itself “entitled to rule the world,” and try to put words into my mouth. This is no way to wage “civil debate” on the Taiwan issue in particular.

Re-uniting with Taiwan, or at least guaranteeing it not become a hostile and “independent” satellite of the U.S., is for China’s leaders and people a crucial matter of national sovereignty and security, not a stepping stone toward “world conquest.”

I think you are far too sensitive to ccp feelings to the exclusion of what the rest of the world thinks

the chinese dictatorship thinks and acts holistically

so if you think that for china the Taiwan question is only about Taiwan you are naive

they see the entire chessboard and you dont

Taiwan is also about suppressing the freedom movement in Hong Kong, which is also about militarized artificial islands in international waters, border disputes with india, chinese fishing boats in Philippines waters, disputes with Australia over the wuhan flu,huawei, 5g networks in europe, and countless other moves too numerous to list here

all designed to make china the dominant power on the globe and beyond

and your nevil chamberlain policy of localized appeasement plays right into china’s hands

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

This thread is a serious discussion about the “peril of war with China over Taiwan.”

It not about the threat to democracy in the U.S. represented by Trump or Biden, or about the U.S. military in Afghanistan or the Middle East or in hundreds of bases around the world. It is not about

the freedom movement in Hong Kong ... militarized artificial islands in international waters, border disputes with india, chinese fishing boats in Philippines waters, disputes with Australia over the wuhan flu, huawei, 5g networks in europe”

Stay on subject or kindly get off this thread! This is the “clean debate zone” and there are also not supposed to be personal attacks here either.

I have already warned...

This is no way to wage “civil debate” on the Taiwan issue in particular.

Please try to discuss the Taiwan issue from the perspective of avoiding — or not — war with China.

 

[Mac-7]

This thread is a serious discussion about the “peril of war with China over Taiwan.”

Ok, I will draw you a picture

china is a cowardly dog

for 70 years there has been no war over Taiwan because the United States was committed to freedom for the Taiwanese people

the day china feels weakness in US resolve thats the day freedom in Taiwan dies

 

[EvilCat Breath]

There will be no war over Taiwan. If anything president Chicom Xiden would bomb Taiwan on behalf of the Chinese.

 

[Mac-7]

There will be no war over Taiwan. If anything president Chicom Xiden would bomb Taiwan on behalf of the Chinese.

Thats so true

with the senile old fool in the white house libs will kowtow to china

which means Taiwan is doomed

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Ok, I will draw you a picture
china is a cowardly dog

Well, thanks for painting your little picture. This “analysis” is too childish and simpleminded to take seriously. But I shall try to respond reasonably as always.

Most Chinese (whose second language is English) when they read such childish insults ... must wonder at Americans’ sanity.

I know I am often asked by them why we and Westerners always seem to wander the world starting wars. “Why are you and why were the Japanese so violent?” they ask.

Some, of course, react poorly to such insults. They become determined to teach Americans a lesson.

Far from “cowardly dogs,” the U.S. is likely to learn — if it pushes this issue too far or goes to war over Taiwan — that the Chinese have become ... “wolf warriors.”

Objectively, China’s industrial economy is far stronger than ours. They have almost five times the manpower available. Taiwan is already internationally recognized as not officially independent, as being part of “One China.” No country except — possibly —the U.S.A will try to defend Taiwan if it comes to war. Taiwan is also very close to China and very far from the U.S.A. China is united and patriotically motivated to recover Taiwan. The U.S. population is self-absorbed, disunited, and can not even decide how it should defend its own democracy and Capitol.

The diplomat who wrote the OP article, Chas Freeman, disagrees with the “China is a cowardly dog” notion as well:

“As was true of Hanoi, Beijing is a determinedly nationalist opponent that enjoys the balance of fervor in its struggle to end the American-backed division of its country.”

It seems to me, to Freeman, and I believe even to that old cynical “real politic” U.S. warmonger Henry Kissinger, that we and the innocent Taiwanese people are “sleepwalking” into a tragic war with China.

Of course China does not want war over Taiwan. They are not mad. But since August 2017 — when Trump was in office — the CCP has been openly preparing to “fight and win” just such a war. They do not fool themselves about how serious a matter this would be, or say moronically that “Americans are cowardly dogs.”

They may think us crazy, perhaps, but then much of the world thinks that. If the Chinese leaders decide they have no choice but to militarily seize Taiwan, they will be prepared and they will act, and no American Administration of either party will stop them.

The only “saving” of Taiwan will come if tensions are reduced and all sides return — more or less — to the previous negotiated “diplomatic fiction” that Taiwan is part of “One China” and will “eventually” be reunited with it.

It was notably under the Trump Administration that XiJinping first famously enunciated the call for China to be ready to “fight and win wars” to “defend Chinese sovereignty”:

BEIJING, Aug. 1, 2017 (Xinhua) -- China must step up transforming its armed forces into a world-class military that is ready to fight and win wars as the country will never compromise on defending sovereignty, President Xi Jinping said.... “No one should expect us to swallow bitter fruit that is harmful to our sovereignty, security or development interests," said Xi.

Those who fantasize or fear China has long range plans to “take over the world” ... should be the last ones to doubt that they are willing, if forced, to “take over” ... Taiwan.