The Misrepresented Political History of the Confederate Battle Flag

[theDoctorisIn]

I don't think they've been banned from anything, Camp. Are you sure?

It's not that South Carolina teams are "banned" from NCAA sports, it's that South Carolina cities are not chosen to host championship games or bowl games.

Oh. Even still, I think both Clemson and USC generate enough revenue to counteract that. It sure helps here in Athens with UGA and the last time we hosted a major sporting event was the 1996 Olympics (the women's soccer part.)

What do you mean by "counteract" that?

They'd make a fuck-ton more revenue if they were allowed to host championship games.

 

[eagle1462010]

Tear this mountain down..................

 

[TemplarKormac]

I don't think they've been banned from anything, Camp. Are you sure?

It's not that South Carolina teams are "banned" from NCAA sports, it's that South Carolina cities are not chosen to host championship games or bowl games.

Oh. Even still, I think both Clemson and USC generate enough revenue to counteract that. It sure helps here in Athens with UGA and the last time we hosted a major sporting event was the 1996 Olympics (the women's soccer part.)

What do you mean by "counteract" that?

They'd make a fuck-ton more revenue if they were allowed to host championship games.

They don't seem to care.

 

[jon_berzerk]

if you want to have one in a window or your yard

that is one

flying one at a state capital probably not

Exactly. Display it on any private property you want, but displaying the flag of an army whose goal was to overthrow the American government above a government building is absurd.

Overthrow? Are you kidding me? The Confederate States of America had no such goal.

That's a flat out lie.

What was their goal?

To secede from the Union.

yup

 

[paulitician]

Racist white inbred redneck loons need to learn history. Wait, what? What i am i saying? Not sure an inbred redneck loon is capable of learning. Anyway, the Confederacy was never part of America. It was eliminated a 150 years ago. There is no valid justification for flying its flag on Government grounds. The Confederacy wasn't and isn't America. So just take the damn thing down.

The State in question was part of the Confederacy, so you big goobernment bullys just butt out and let the State decide what flag they want to fly.

The Confederacy doesn't exist. Hasn't for a 150 years. Is flag shouldn't fly on Government grounds. At this point, it only represents hate & bigotry. Time to take it down.

 

[hangover]

Astute observers of my forum avatar may realize that I have the Confederate Battle Flag as my background. But only for a week. I so far have tried to stay out of this debate, but I draw the line here. I also support Governor Nikki Haley's move to remove it from the capitol, but this is political correctness run amok. I don't care what views people have of it. To me it represents a deeply flawed heritage, not racism, slavery, or exclusiveness. It's history, not a history I'm particularly proud of, but there it is.

The common misconceptions are that this flag represented racism and slavery, or was flown on slave ships or whatnot. Some say it was the national flag of the Confederacy. None of those things are true.

1) I can find no accounts of this flag being flown on slave ships. None. No Confederate flag was ever flown on a slave ship. English, Dutch, Portuguese, and the New England States ships were used in the slave trade.

2) It was never the official national flag of the Confederacy. It was a flag carried into battle by armies such as the Army of Virginia and Tennessee. It was used as a Naval Jack in the Confederate Navy. There is a reason they called it a "battle flag," because it was just that.

An artist's depiction of Pickett's Charge, which took place on July 3, 1863

The CSS Richmond

3) There were three other flags that the Confederacy used during the war, none of which were this flag. Here's a fun fact: Georgia today uses a variant of the "Stars and Bars" or the very first Confederate National Flag. Yet, no outrage persists over it. Common misconceptions about the flag are that it was the "Stars and Bars" but that happened to be the first national flag of the Confederacy.

The three national flags of the Confederacy, pictured in order. The first was flown from 1861-1863, the second from 1863-1865, and the third in 1865 which was never mass produced after the Confederate States were defeated by Union troops.

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The "Stars and Bars" variant of the Georgia State Flag.

The original "Stars and Bars," the First Confederate National Flag


4) For people wanting to scream racism, look at the 2nd National flag. The white field with the battle flag inlay was supposed to represent the white supremacist viewpoint many confederate citizens held at the time:

The 2nd Confederate National Flag

5) For those of you who believe the American Flag has always represented freedom, you would be surprised to know that it flew over a slavery ridden America for 85 years. Yes, the Northerners owned slaves, too. So, if you want to draw parallels, the US Flag could be seen in the same light as the Confederate Battle Flag. In fact, the Klan usurped the US National flag to promote a hateful racist agenda, as seen here, just as white supremacy groups like the CCC, and the Aryan Nation have used the Confederate flag as sign of resistance:

This picture here is of a Klan march on Washington D.C. in 1925

6) The reason why I support the removal of the Confederate flag from the SC statehouse is for historical context. It wasn't designed to fly over any buildings, but over regiments in the battlefield. Nothing more. So, it is more a misrepresentation of the purpose of the flag than anything else.

People have a right to be offended, people have a right not to be. People have a right to represent their heritage. I've grown annoyed by people who see their history as offensive or repressive and must censor it to avoid causing derision. But I'd much rather represent my history than forget it. So, I'd urge you to educate yourselves on the true history of this flag.

EDIT: I changed my avatar after one hour. I'm not keeping the confederate emblem because I am not a rebel and I don't claim the Confederacy as my "heritage."

The confederate flag is the flag flown by the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nation. That proves beyond any doubt that it represents bigotry and hate. And the cons are not going to convince anyone with any common sense, that the Klan and the Aryans vote for democrats.

 

[BlindBoo]

Racist white inbred redneck loons need to learn history. Wait, what? What i am i saying? Not sure an inbred redneck loon is capable of learning. Anyway, the Confederacy was never part of America. It was eliminated a 150 years ago. There is no valid justification for flying its flag on Government grounds. The Confederacy wasn't and isn't America. So just take the damn thing down.

The State in question was part of the Confederacy, so you big goobernment bullys just butt out and let the State decide what flag they want to fly.

The Confederacy doesn't exist. Hasn't for a 150 years. Is flag shouldn't fly on Government grounds. At this point, it only represents hate & bigotry. Time to take it down.

What flag to fly on state grounds should be left up to the state. If they want to fly a flag championed by white segregationist in 1962 or not, so be it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Ban confederate battle flag avatars. Worse than child porn.

Well, you're probably more of an expert on child porn than the rest of us, so I'll defer to you on that score.

 

[paulitician]

Racist white inbred redneck loons need to learn history. Wait, what? What i am i saying? Not sure an inbred redneck loon is capable of learning. Anyway, the Confederacy was never part of America. It was eliminated a 150 years ago. There is no valid justification for flying its flag on Government grounds. The Confederacy wasn't and isn't America. So just take the damn thing down.

The State in question was part of the Confederacy, so you big goobernment bullys just butt out and let the State decide what flag they want to fly.

The Confederacy doesn't exist. Hasn't for a 150 years. Is flag shouldn't fly on Government grounds. At this point, it only represents hate & bigotry. Time to take it down.

What flag to fly on state grounds should be left up to the state. If they want to fly a flag championed by white segregationist in 1962 or not, so be it.

Well, many in the South are coming around. They may be ditching their racist redneck flag soon. Even they're beginning to realize it only represents the horrific abuse of African Americans by the South. We respect the Jewish People and don't fly the Nazi Flag on Government grounds. We should show our African American citizens the same respect.

 

[BlindBoo]

they're beginning to realize it only represents the horrific abuse of African Americans by the South

Only is too absolute. Sound to colorless to be real. Too some it represents their ancestors bravely (or stupidly) rushing headlong into a wall of fire and hot lead during battle. The flag in SC represents SC's defiance to desegregation.

The shooter didn't use a flag to kill anyone.

 

[bendog]

they're beginning to realize it only represents the horrific abuse of African Americans by the South

Only is too absolute. Sound to colorless to be real. Too some it represents their ancestors bravely (or stupidly) rushing headlong into a wall of fire and hot lead during battle. The flag in SC represents SC's defiance to desegregation.

The shooter didn't use a flag to kill anyone.

First, I agree with the distinction between an individual using the flag to symbolize something being none of my business. But, I think your last sentence is the key. The shooter didn't use the flag; his action really had nothing to do with the flag. And, it may be true that his "grievances" against the black race may not be totally baseless. A greater % of blacks may be involved in violent crimes against whites than whites are involved. Maybe not, but at 2 a.m. when you have to go to a drug store for cough medicine or something, most of us are scared.

But the shooter lumped all blacks into the same boat of bad blacks. This particular flag does represent resistance to ending systemic and legalized discrimination. That's why, at this time and that place, that flag is pernicious. And hopefully SC takes it down.

 

[CowboyTed]

Displaying the flag of a treasonous (now non-existent) army above a government building is retarded. I don't care what their motives are.

So, free speech is only free when it doesn't offend someone. Cool beans.

I have said numerous times that nothing about the flag offends me. Fly it anywhere on your private property you want, but flying the flag of an army who committed treason above a government building is ridiculous. Why don't we just fly the swastika above our capitol to celebrate German heritage?

But does help us figure out racist bigots from the rest of the population.

 

[CowboyTed]

Pity he didn't come into that church waving that flag first...

 

[TemplarKormac]

How many southerners are "supporters" of the Confederacy?

I'm going to answer this question. Because I'm growing increasingly disturbed by how far this Confederate Flag thing is in fact going.

None of them are, because the majority of them don't support slavery, I know, I live in the south, in one of the most "southern" of the southern states. That flag, from what I'm learning, represents more than just "slavery" it doesn't even represent slavery to them at all. It holds the same meaning to the south as the US flag holds for America, and both flags have equally treacherous pasts.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Gonna take weeks to get this tar and feathers out of my clothes.

Nevermind. The lengths at which people are taking to excise the confederate flag from our culture is a bit much. I agreed that removing it from the SC state capitol was a good move. But I will reassume elements of this argument.

 

[Syriusly]

How many southerners are "supporters" of the Confederacy?

I'm going to answer this question. Because I'm growing increasingly disturbed by how far this Confederate Flag thing is in fact going.

None of them are, because the majority of them don't support slavery, I know, I live in the south, in one of the most "southern" of the southern states. That flag, from what I'm learning, represents more than just "slavery" it doesn't even represent slavery to them at all. It holds the same meaning to the south as the US flag holds for America, and both flags have equally treacherous pasts.

I would agree.

I think that there has been far too much made about the flag- however, I think it is an issue that has been simmering for awhile.

As I mentioned before- I agree generally with your OP- and I agree most white Southerners are not racists and do not associate the flag with racism. However, I believe most black Southerners do associate the flag with racism- not because so much of the Confederacy- but because how the flag was coopted by the racists in the 1960's to oppose desegregation.

I get both sides- the side i do not get is the one represented by Roof- and that is the side that hugs the Confederate Flag because they are racists- and they associate the flag with white supremacy.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

How many southerners are "supporters" of the Confederacy?

I'm going to answer this question. Because I'm growing increasingly disturbed by how far this Confederate Flag thing is in fact going.

None of them are, because the majority of them don't support slavery, I know, I live in the south, in one of the most "southern" of the southern states. That flag, from what I'm learning, represents more than just "slavery" it doesn't even represent slavery to them at all. It holds the same meaning to the south as the US flag holds for America, and both flags have equally treacherous pasts.

I understand what the flag means to many people in the south. But it means something else to a lot of other people, including many in the south - and the fact that it represents "heritage" to some doesn't negate the fact that it means "white power" to others. What we are seeing happen now is the same as we've seen with gay rights in the last decade - the tide is turning. The violence in Charleston is not the cause of the backlash against the flag, it's the finger on the scale that tips it - that backlash has been festering for a long time.

I have no problem with people flying the Confederate flag over their homes. I don't care if people want to wear t-shirts with Confederate flags on them. I listen to music by bands that use that flag in their imagery, and I watch movies that feature it prominently. The flag does not upset me personally, but my view does not override the views of others.

 

[TemplarKormac]

What we are seeing happen now is the same as we've seen with gay rights in the last decade - the tide is turning.

To the point IMO, where a certain view of the confederacy is being systematically censored by one side of the debate. I can't buy confederate flags anymore at a major retailer like Wal Mart, I can't buy them on Amazon or eBay. I see it as a part of southern culture. Warner Bros. is taking the flag off General Lee's roof for pete's sakes. This is going too far. I'm equating it with soft censorship. I mean, what next? Will CBS start blurring out the flag on top down views of the General Lee Dukes of Hazzard reruns?

Yes, you can fly the flag, wear t-shirts and listen to bands who employ the Confederate Battle Flag in imagery, but when you deny people the choice (yeah like the gay rights debate) to buy what they want, like a Confederate Flag, essentially that is discrimination based on a belief that the flag represents pride and heritage rather than slavery or racism. Now these people are forced to buy such material from specialized retailers who will likely charge a greater price for such paraphernalia. I don't think that's fair.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

What we are seeing happen now is the same as we've seen with gay rights in the last decade - the tide is turning.

To the point IMO, where a certain view of the confederacy is being systematically censored by one side of the debate. I can't buy confederate flags anymore at a major retailer like Wal Mart, I can't buy them on Amazon or eBay. I see it as a part of southern culture. Warner Bros. is taking the flag off General Lee's roof for pete's sakes. This is going too far. I'm equating it with soft censorship. I mean, what next? Will CBS start blurring out the flag on top down views of the General Lee Dukes of Hazzard reruns?

Yes, you can fly the flag, wear t-shirts and listen to bands who employ the Confederate Battle Flag in imagery, but when you deny people the choice (yeah like the gay rights debate) to buy what they want, like a Confederate Flag, essentially that is discrimination based on a belief that the flag represents pride and heritage rather than slavery or racism. Now these people are forced to buy such material from specialized retailers who will likely charge a greater price for such paraphernalia. I don't think that's fair.

So what do you suggest? Should we deny stores the choice to decide what they want to sell?

No one has forced these companies to stop selling flag merchandise - they're making that business decision based on their own bottom lines. Walmart doesn't sell Nazi flags either - is that unfair to Neo-Nazis?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Should we deny stores the choice to decide what they want to sell?

No, but how is it fair to the customers? Just as an aside, it is interesting that now we are defending a store's right not to sell offensive material.