The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[P F Tinmore]

Read all yours posts base on lies. And it is your country under discussion not mien.

Throwing accusation is not the same as proving them.
I didn't see You manage to prove anything I've said was incorrect.

Now explain one thing, You expect Israel to follow resolutions that neither Your country
nor the rest of the UN member states obliged to follow?

Like israel is not a legitimate country. It was given mandate/status when there was only few WII Coalition country were UN member and Israelis accepted that UN order immediately.

International law is not a popular vote,
a contract between sovereign nations is it?

But israel is not a legitimate nation.
Then what is a popular vote?

A popular vote is not a thing the Palestinians have shown to appreciate.. There IS no more "popular vote" in Palestine.. That was a brief shiny moment in Palestinian history when they HAD a national govt.. That govt has been functionally dissolved for the past 12 years or so because of civil war and fighting...

No other period in "Palestinian history" featured a "national" popular vote. So why are you talking about popular votes??? WHOSE popular vote?

And this is about the 10th time you've repeated that Israel is illegitimate.. Saying it an 11th or 12th time, without discussing the ACTUAL history of this region -- just makes you look foolish..

A popular vote is not a thing the Palestinians have shown to appreciate.. There IS no more "popular vote" in Palestine.. That was a brief shiny moment in Palestinian history when they HAD a national govt.. That govt has been functionally dissolved for the past 12 years or so because of civil war and fighting...

The unity government of March 2007 was an excellent government. Then the US coup of June 2007 ruined the chance for elections since then.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

But israel is not a legitimate nation.

Well, objectively, what makes a nation "legitimate". How can one tell whether a nation is "legitimate" or not? What is the criteria?

​

Surely not kicking out the natives and stealing their land.

But they weren't "natives". The criteria for being a "Palestinian" was being a resident of Palestine from 1946 to 1948, a mere 2 years.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

It was Britain that CREATED the state of Israel... There was no "Zionist invasion". Yes Zionists lobbied hard for that to happen.. But they ALONE could not MAKE that happen..

Indeed, the Zionists mooched Britain's military to run cover for their settler colonial project.

Have you ever considered telling the truth?

 

[P F Tinmore]

And this is about the 10th time you've repeated that Israel is illegitimate.. Saying it an 11th or 12th time, without discussing the ACTUAL history of this region -- just makes you look foolish..

And instead of asking why he says that, everybody just starts dancing.

 

[P F Tinmore]

But israel is not a legitimate nation.

Well, objectively, what makes a nation "legitimate". How can one tell whether a nation is "legitimate" or not? What is the criteria?

​

Surely not kicking out the natives and stealing their land.

But they weren't "natives". The criteria for being a "Palestinian" was being a resident of Palestine from 1946 to 1948, a mere 2 years.

Not true. That was just UNWRA's definition of who qualifies for aid.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It was Britain that CREATED the state of Israel... There was no "Zionist invasion". Yes Zionists lobbied hard for that to happen.. But they ALONE could not MAKE that happen..

Indeed, the Zionists mooched Britain's military to run cover for their settler colonial project.

Have you ever considered telling the truth?

It's true. Look it up.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, Rehmani, et al,

There is no such thing as an "Illegitimate Nation." It is either a nation or some other category of territory.

BUT! A nation (State) either exits or not exist. Nature, character, or political status is irrelevant. The choices are:

◈ Exist
. ,,.....or
◈ Not Exist​

But israel is not a legitimate nation.

Well, objectively, what makes a nation "legitimate". How can one tell whether a nation is "legitimate" or not? What is the criteria?

​

Surely not kicking out the natives and stealing their land.

(COMMENT)

Just because you do not like the nature of the creation (your feelings • the people's feelings • and other external judgment) of a "nation" (State), does not make its existence and less stable

I may (or may not) like you → or the relationship from which you were born → it does not change the fact that you exist. And it really does not predict the adult character with will deveolp (See: Famous 'illegitimate' children list).

Just as we don't go around → killing all the "illegitimate children" on the Earth --- we don't go around trying to snuff-out the nations which were established in a manner which you do not approve.

A nation is what it is. The nation's source or manner of creation (this "illegitimate" tag) is of no relevance.

Now, if two competing people have a dispute over the size and shape of their respective sovereign territory, that is resolved in accordance with the Rule of Law (specifically): Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States A/RES/25/2625 XXV.

If the Arab Palestinians do not want to observe the Rule of Law, then so be it. But the question of "legitimacy" is just school yard childishness.

✦ THE RULE OF LAW:

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate
the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of
solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems
concerning frontiers of States.​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

✦ THE RULE OF LAW:

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate
the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of
solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems
concerning frontiers of States.

And Israel sits inside Palestine's international borders. How can that be legal?

Link?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Boy, do you ever twist the truth?

It is said, regularly, that there was no Palestine. That the Mandate was Palestine. This is not true. The 1949 UN Armistice Agreements ( the year after the Mandate left Palestine) said that Palestine is still there. That Palestine's international borders are still there.

(COMMENT)

FIRST: As far as the West Bank (including Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip are concerned, the Arab Palestinians had no part in the establishment of the Armistice Agreements.

SECOND: As far as the West Bank (including Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip are concerned, the Armistice Agreement were replaced by Peace Treaties that established the Permanent International Boundaries.

THIRD: The "international borders" of which you speak were used as reference lines only. These demarcations outlined the territory to which the Mandate for Palestine applied. The was territory which formerly was under the sovereignty of the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic. The Territory to which the Mandate of Palestine applied, was outlined → within such boundaries that were fixed by the Principal Allied Powers. Your assertion that the international demarcation of the territory to which the Mandate applied; having the short title of "Palestine" was some sort of permanent boundary is completely false and represents a statement attempting to be manipulative of the truth; intentionally false and misleading.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Dogmaphobe]

It was Britain that CREATED the state of Israel... There was no "Zionist invasion". Yes Zionists lobbied hard for that to happen.. But they ALONE could not MAKE that happen..

Indeed, the Zionists mooched Britain's military to run cover for their settler colonial project.

Have you ever considered telling the truth?

It's true. Look it up.

There was no "settler colonial project".

You are simple parroting the stupid jargon created by terrorists for all their terrorist supporters .

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Boy, do you ever twist the truth?

It is said, regularly, that there was no Palestine. That the Mandate was Palestine. This is not true. The 1949 UN Armistice Agreements ( the year after the Mandate left Palestine) said that Palestine is still there. That Palestine's international borders are still there.

(COMMENT)

FIRST: As far as the West Bank (including Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip are concerned, the Arab Palestinians had no part in the establishment of the Armistice Agreements.

SECOND: As far as the West Bank (including Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip are concerned, the Armistice Agreement were replaced by Peace Treaties that established the Permanent International Boundaries.

THIRD: The "international borders" of which you speak were used as reference lines only. These demarcations outlined the territory to which the Mandate for Palestine applied. The was territory which formerly was under the sovereignty of the Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic. The Territory to which the Mandate of Palestine applied, was outlined → within such boundaries that were fixed by the Principal Allied Powers. Your assertion that the international demarcation of the territory to which the Mandate applied; having the short title of "Palestine" was some sort of permanent boundary is completely false and represents a statement attempting to be manipulative of the truth; intentionally false and misleading.

Most Respectfully,
R

My statement is true. Look it up.

 

[P F Tinmore]

It was Britain that CREATED the state of Israel... There was no "Zionist invasion". Yes Zionists lobbied hard for that to happen.. But they ALONE could not MAKE that happen..

Indeed, the Zionists mooched Britain's military to run cover for their settler colonial project.

Have you ever considered telling the truth?

It's true. Look it up.

There was no "settler colonial project".

You are simple parroting the stupid jargon created by terrorists for all their terrorist supporters .

The British and the Zionists said it was. You need to read up.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

It is entirely legal → because the entirety of the boundaries that established the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applied, (thereinafter described as Palestine) are historical only.

✦ THE RULE OF LAW:

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate
the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of
solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems
concerning frontiers of States.​

​

And Israel sits inside Palestine's international borders. How can that be legal?

Link?

(COMMENT)

The State of Israel replaced that portion of the territory to which the Mandate for Palestine applied. It was not inserted into the territory as you imply.

Israel DOES NOT sit inside Palestine because, in 1948, there was no territory designated as the State of Palestine. And don't bringup that September 1948 All Palestine Government crap.

An undefined State of Palestine was Declared in 1988 and the UN Decided to accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations in 2012.

The Rule of Law says to "including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States." If the Arab Palestinians had a leg to stand-on based on this bogus claim, they would have taken legal action by now.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[flacaltenn]

It was Britain that CREATED the state of Israel... There was no "Zionist invasion". Yes Zionists lobbied hard for that to happen.. But they ALONE could not MAKE that happen..

Indeed, the Zionists mooched Britain's military to run cover for their settler colonial project.

The founding patriots of the USA lobbied France heavily to assist with their independence and they were just a band of rebels.. Happens all the time.. It's the POWER that Britain had to GRANT that favor that created the State of Israel... Not the "lobbyists"...

Kurds are doing that TODAY... You wanna tell them to just "fuck off" after the fight they've had for survival in the Levant???

 

[flacaltenn]

Throwing accusation is not the same as proving them.
I didn't see You manage to prove anything I've said was incorrect.

Now explain one thing, You expect Israel to follow resolutions that neither Your country
nor the rest of the UN member states obliged to follow?

Like israel is not a legitimate country. It was given mandate/status when there was only few WII Coalition country were UN member and Israelis accepted that UN order immediately.

International law is not a popular vote,
a contract between sovereign nations is it?

But israel is not a legitimate nation.
Then what is a popular vote?

A popular vote is not a thing the Palestinians have shown to appreciate.. There IS no more "popular vote" in Palestine.. That was a brief shiny moment in Palestinian history when they HAD a national govt.. That govt has been functionally dissolved for the past 12 years or so because of civil war and fighting...

No other period in "Palestinian history" featured a "national" popular vote. So why are you talking about popular votes??? WHOSE popular vote?

And this is about the 10th time you've repeated that Israel is illegitimate.. Saying it an 11th or 12th time, without discussing the ACTUAL history of this region -- just makes you look foolish..

A popular vote is not a thing the Palestinians have shown to appreciate.. There IS no more "popular vote" in Palestine.. That was a brief shiny moment in Palestinian history when they HAD a national govt.. That govt has been functionally dissolved for the past 12 years or so because of civil war and fighting...

The unity government of March 2007 was an excellent government. Then the US coup of June 2007 ruined the chance for elections since then.

We've been over this and it's not in right part of history to discuss here.. I only brought it up to show that ANY kind of "popular" vote is not a comfortable Arab culture..

 

[flacaltenn]

It was Britain that CREATED the state of Israel... There was no "Zionist invasion". Yes Zionists lobbied hard for that to happen.. But they ALONE could not MAKE that happen..

Indeed, the Zionists mooched Britain's military to run cover for their settler colonial project.

Have you ever considered telling the truth?

It's true. Look it up.

There was no "settler colonial project".

You are simple parroting the stupid jargon created by terrorists for all their terrorist supporters .

Actually, that term "settler colonial project(s)" is juiced up to insight contention.. But it's not far from the truth.. All the early 20th century projects, communes, kibbutzes were coordinated and managed as international projects..

PFT's problem is that they were NO WAY "colonial".. Colonial implies use of tremendous EXISTING state power and force.. And that's not part of this picture.... Organizations and Lobbies don't send navies and explorers to plant flags and DEFEND THEM BY FORCE...

But PFT is a zealot and is attracted to fiery terminology like that...

 

[Dogmaphobe]

It was Britain that CREATED the state of Israel... There was no "Zionist invasion". Yes Zionists lobbied hard for that to happen.. But they ALONE could not MAKE that happen..

Indeed, the Zionists mooched Britain's military to run cover for their settler colonial project.

Have you ever considered telling the truth?

It's true. Look it up.

There was no "settler colonial project".

You are simple parroting the stupid jargon created by terrorists for all their terrorist supporters .

Actually, that term "settler colonial project(s)" is juiced up to insight contention.. But it's not far from the truth.. All the early 20th century projects, communes, kibbutzes were coordinated and managed as international projects..

PFT's problem is that they were NO WAY "colonial".. Colonial implies use of tremendous EXISTING state power and force.. And that's not part of this picture.... Organizations and Lobbies don't send navies and explorers to plant flags and DEFEND THEM BY FORCE...

But PFT is a zealot and is attracted to fiery terminology like that...

It is a simple matter to determine which sites people use to form their world view by the cliches and buzz terms they use. His use of the term colonial project could have been Banustan, open air prison or any of a number of other cliches found at hate sites. Others here reveal themselves in the same way.

The point I was making had more to do with the telltale nature of the childish rhetoric. There was obviously no colonialism for the reasons you gave.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

It is entirely legal → because the entirety of the boundaries that established the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applied, (thereinafter described as Palestine) are historical only.

✦ THE RULE OF LAW:

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate
the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of
solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems
concerning frontiers of States.​

​

And Israel sits inside Palestine's international borders. How can that be legal?

Link?

(COMMENT)

The State of Israel replaced that portion of the territory to which the Mandate for Palestine applied. It was not inserted into the territory as you imply.

Israel DOES NOT sit inside Palestine because, in 1948, there was no territory designated as the State of Palestine. And don't bringup that September 1948 All Palestine Government crap.

An undefined State of Palestine was Declared in 1988 and the UN Decided to accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations in 2012.

The Rule of Law says to "including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States." If the Arab Palestinians had a leg to stand-on based on this bogus claim, they would have taken legal action by now.

Most Respectfully,
R

Only Zionists will argue against actual documents with Israeli talking points. That is why I asked for a link that I will never get.

 

[rylah]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

It is entirely legal → because the entirety of the boundaries that established the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applied, (thereinafter described as Palestine) are historical only.

✦ THE RULE OF LAW:

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate
the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of
solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems
concerning frontiers of States.​

​

And Israel sits inside Palestine's international borders. How can that be legal?

Link?

(COMMENT)

The State of Israel replaced that portion of the territory to which the Mandate for Palestine applied. It was not inserted into the territory as you imply.

Israel DOES NOT sit inside Palestine because, in 1948, there was no territory designated as the State of Palestine. And don't bringup that September 1948 All Palestine Government crap.

An undefined State of Palestine was Declared in 1988 and the UN Decided to accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations in 2012.

The Rule of Law says to "including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States." If the Arab Palestinians had a leg to stand-on based on this bogus claim, they would have taken legal action by now.

Most Respectfully,
R

Only Zionists will argue against actual documents with Israeli talking points. That is why I asked for a link that I will never get.

You make it sound as if those are arguments brought by Israelis or Zionists,
it makes Your inability to disprove them any less a defeat.

The Jewish nation was vested with sovereignty in all of the territory alloted to Palestine,
the country's legal definition was framed in the re-constitution of the Jewish nation from day one.

 

[Rehmani]

Like israel is not a legitimate country. It was given mandate/status when there was only few WII Coalition country were UN member and Israelis accepted that UN order immediately.

International law is not a popular vote,
a contract between sovereign nations is it?

But israel is not a legitimate nation.
Then what is a popular vote?

A popular vote is not a thing the Palestinians have shown to appreciate.. There IS no more "popular vote" in Palestine.. That was a brief shiny moment in Palestinian history when they HAD a national govt.. That govt has been functionally dissolved for the past 12 years or so because of civil war and fighting...

No other period in "Palestinian history" featured a "national" popular vote. So why are you talking about popular votes??? WHOSE popular vote?

And this is about the 10th time you've repeated that Israel is illegitimate.. Saying it an 11th or 12th time, without discussing the ACTUAL history of this region -- just makes you look foolish..

A popular vote is not a thing the Palestinians have shown to appreciate.. There IS no more "popular vote" in Palestine.. That was a brief shiny moment in Palestinian history when they HAD a national govt.. That govt has been functionally dissolved for the past 12 years or so because of civil war and fighting...

The unity government of March 2007 was an excellent government. Then the US coup of June 2007 ruined the chance for elections since then.

We've been over this and it's not in right part of history to discuss here.. I only brought it up to show that ANY kind of "popular" vote is not a comfortable Arab culture..

First what is popular?
Second, if UN vote was popular in 1947 then why Israel refusing UN popular vote today?
Now you will say an election is a popular vote.
Then I will say that popular vote for israel is only became possible, when UN gave mandate to Israel in 1947.
Then I will further say if Israel accept the UN mandate today and let the people of Palestine establish the popular vote as Israel did in 1947.
Now don't tell me that Israel want this popular vote first then israel will accept UN mandate today and give sovereignty to people of Palestine.
Israel is not a UN. Israel is a conflict and conflict is there because of Israel.