The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[AzogtheDefiler]

Still waiting...who was the President of “Palestine” in 1946? Thank you

 

[Rehmani]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
⁜→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, Rehmani, et al,

There is no such thing as an "Illegitimate Nation." It is either a nation or some other category of territory.

BUT! A nation (State) either exits or not exist. Nature, character, or political status is irrelevant. The choices are:

◈ Exist
. ,,.....or
◈ Not Exist​

But israel is not a legitimate nation.

Well, objectively, what makes a nation "legitimate". How can one tell whether a nation is "legitimate" or not? What is the criteria?

​

Surely not kicking out the natives and stealing their land.

(COMMENT)

Just because you do not like the nature of the creation (your feelings • the people's feelings • and other external judgment) of a "nation" (State), does not make its existence and less stable

I may (or may not) like you → or the relationship from which you were born → it does not change the fact that you exist. And it really does not predict the adult character with will deveolp (See: Famous 'illegitimate' children list).

Just as we don't go around → killing all the "illegitimate children" on the Earth --- we don't go around trying to snuff-out the nations which were established in a manner which you do not approve.

A nation is what it is. The nation's source or manner of creation (this "illegitimate" tag) is of no relevance.

Now, if two competing people have a dispute over the size and shape of their respective sovereign territory, that is resolved in accordance with the Rule of Law (specifically): Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States A/RES/25/2625 XXV.

If the Arab Palestinians do not want to observe the Rule of Law, then so be it. But the question of "legitimacy" is just school yard childishness.

✦ THE RULE OF LAW:

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate
the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of
solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems
concerning frontiers of States.​

Most Respectfully,
R

I hope your home is not invaded and pushed you out, if this is the case what will you do then?
Will you call their invasion legitimate and you will leave.

 

[Rehmani]

But israel is not a legitimate nation.

Well, objectively, what makes a nation "legitimate". How can one tell whether a nation is "legitimate" or not? What is the criteria?

​

Surely not kicking out the natives and stealing their land.

But they weren't "natives". The criteria for being a "Palestinian" was being a resident of Palestine from 1946 to 1948, a mere 2 years.

Why making false statement. whole world know Jew are not native to holly land.

 

[rylah]

Then I will say that popular vote for israel is only became possible, when UN gave mandate to Israel in 1947.

You say many stuff,
but the UN didn't give any mandate to Israel, it was not entitled to do so, the mandate, or recognition of right to govern was given with the obligation to follow the establishment of the re-constitution of the Jewish nation. The authority of the UN itself is preconditioned on following its constitution, which includes this legal obligation.

 

[Rehmani]

Read all yours posts base on lies. And it is your country under discussion not mien.

Throwing accusation is not the same as proving them.
I didn't see You manage to prove anything I've said was incorrect.

Now explain one thing, You expect Israel to follow resolutions that neither Your country
nor the rest of the UN member states obliged to follow?

Like israel is not a legitimate country. It was given mandate/status when there was only few WII Coalition country were UN member and Israelis accepted that UN order immediately.

International law is not a popular vote,
a contract between sovereign nations is it?

But israel is not a legitimate nation.
Then what is a popular vote?

A popular vote is not a thing the Palestinians have shown to appreciate.. There IS no more "popular vote" in Palestine.. That was a brief shiny moment in Palestinian history when they HAD a national govt.. That govt has been functionally dissolved for the past 12 years or so because of civil war and fighting...

No other period in "Palestinian history" featured a "national" popular vote. So why are you talking about popular votes??? WHOSE popular vote?

And this is about the 10th time you've repeated that Israel is illegitimate.. Saying it an 11th or 12th time, without discussing the ACTUAL history of this region -- just makes you look foolish..

It means if I have to play I have to follow yours rules.
Means how come you can call a invader or robber legitimate so please don't tell me now that robber or invader became gentleman and behaving as you want. And this country you called legitimate has huge financial and army support so it can show the world that how civilized it is (robber).

 

[rylah]

Throwing accusation is not the same as proving them.
I didn't see You manage to prove anything I've said was incorrect.

Now explain one thing, You expect Israel to follow resolutions that neither Your country
nor the rest of the UN member states obliged to follow?

Like israel is not a legitimate country. It was given mandate/status when there was only few WII Coalition country were UN member and Israelis accepted that UN order immediately.

International law is not a popular vote,
a contract between sovereign nations is it?

But israel is not a legitimate nation.
Then what is a popular vote?

A popular vote is not a thing the Palestinians have shown to appreciate.. There IS no more "popular vote" in Palestine.. That was a brief shiny moment in Palestinian history when they HAD a national govt.. That govt has been functionally dissolved for the past 12 years or so because of civil war and fighting...

No other period in "Palestinian history" featured a "national" popular vote. So why are you talking about popular votes??? WHOSE popular vote?

And this is about the 10th time you've repeated that Israel is illegitimate.. Saying it an 11th or 12th time, without discussing the ACTUAL history of this region -- just makes you look foolish..

It means if I have to play I have to follow yours rules.
Means how come you can call a invader or robber legitimate so please don't tell me now that robber or invader became gentleman and behaving as you want. And this country you called legitimate has huge financial and army support so it can show the world that how civilized it is (robber).

Really if You want to discuss cartoons, that could be in the rubber room.

Arabs and Muslims have invaded several continents, the word "Palestinian" literally means an invader,
and it literally bears the symbols of the 4 invading caliphates that once attempted to dominate the entire middle east, Africa and Europe.

Are You one of those who also demand Madrid return to Muslim rule?

 

[Rehmani]

But who the invader are to change the people life style or change the face of Holly Land by enforcing new ...

If I understand the meaning correctly you are asking, "what right does the invader have to change the life style of the people or the face of the Holy Land by enforcing new...."

You do understand that the Muslim Arabs literally built a mosque on top of the Jewish people's Holy Place, yes? You do understand that the Muslim Arabs actually prevent the Jewish people from prayer, worship, re-building, preservation, and agency and autonomy over their own Holy Place, yes?

First In 4000 years of Abraham PBUH, his PBUH race live in holly land hardly 400 years in parts.
Second Arab Muslim got holly land from European about 1500 years ago they are there since then.
Third before Islam Arab were there as christian and pagan called native.
Means jew are vagrant they can not build anything means you don't have to change anything because nothing was there. Please talk with sense.

 

[Rehmani]

But israel is not a legitimate nation.

Well, objectively, what makes a nation "legitimate". How can one tell whether a nation is "legitimate" or not? What is the criteria?

​

You should tell me, if some one invade your home, will you call him legitimate owner? and you will leave.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

whole world know Jew are not native to holly land.

True. Members of the genus Ilex are not native to Israel.

 

[Shusha]

Only Zionists will argue against actual documents with Israeli talking points. That is why I asked for a link that I will never get.

LOL. That's pretty funny coming from the guy whose sole source of documents is the Treaty of Lausanne. And its especially funny when posted to Rocco, who posts more source material than any of us.

 

[Shusha]

First In 4000 years of Abraham PBUH, his PBUH race live in holly land hardly 400 years in parts.
Second Arab Muslim got holly land from European about 1500 years ago they are there since then.
Third before Islam Arab were there as christian and pagan called native.
Means jew are vagrant they can not build anything means you don't have to change anything because nothing was there. Please talk with sense.

You are not making sense. More specifically, you are applying different rules to the Jewish people than you do to others (Arabs, Europeans, Christians, pagans).

You admit that Arab Muslim "got" holy land from European. You admit (Christian) Europeans "got" holy land from "pagans". You admit that OTHER people existed there before Islam Arab.

Who was there before the Christian Europeans? Before the Arab Muslims? Who were the first peoples to understand that the Holy Land WAS a Holy Place? What made it Holy?

Are you denying the existence of G-d's Temple? Are you saying it never happened? It never existed?

 

[Shusha]

But israel is not a legitimate nation.

Well, objectively, what makes a nation "legitimate". How can one tell whether a nation is "legitimate" or not? What is the criteria?

​

You should tell me, if some one invade your home, will you call him legitimate owner? and you will leave.

It is the home of the Jewish people. Has been for 4000 years. Personally, I think the Arab invaders have rights and should have self-determination. But if you want to play the "no invaders are legitimate" game, then I'm in. When are the Arabs leaving, then?

 

[Rehmani]

You are right but they have gone now israel is there and causing all this pain to Peace full holly land last for almost 1500 years while jew spend hardly 500 years in holly land in total as vagrant/gypsy. And Jew want to become the owner.

It was Britain that CREATED the state of Israel... There was no "Zionist invasion". Yes Zionists lobbied hard for that to happen.. But they ALONE could not MAKE that happen..

I suspect you respect Holy books... So when "returning to Jerusalem is mentioned many times and still is recited in many prayers for 1400 years --- it's not fantasy fiction.. There are plenty of Holy sites for Jews including the 2 magnificent Temples.. Which at the time was the CENTRAL FOCUS of Jewish existence.. Many Jewish kings ruled from what is now Israel... And sites in some existing cities show Jewish heritage pre-dating the Romans.

And it's not just Old Testament tales.. All the apostles of Jesus came from cities that now span the breadth of Israel... And all those stories are Jewish stories as well...

Vagrants/gypsies -- HARDLY... Moses wandered 40 years in the desert to enter the Holy Land...

First Moses PBUH never entered the Holy Land and quite possible Moses PBUH never directed the Jew to Jerusalem. When Moses PBUH got fed up from troubled jew He PBUH left them and disappeared in the hills.
Second we are here not to talking about Islam or Jew religion. It is a history Arab Muslim Took over from European and hold the sovereignty for almost 1500 years and they proved that Arab Muslim are sole custodian of the holy land not Persian/roman/European.
Third jew hardly lived in holy land for four hundred years as a vagrant on either Persian or Roman Land and these empire keep pushing jew around how un respectful it is and now you can see those false kingdom jew establish as jew established some king dome either jew kicked out from the land, by the empire owned the territory or taken away as slave.
Fourth, I don't know who Zionist are neither christian accept them christian nor jew accept them jew. I only know jew and I am addressing to jew in my signature comments that please live free, respectful life like others are living, like Persian and Roman are living happily whats wrong with jew when big empire can accept facts and living happily. Why not jew.

 

[Rehmani]

First In 4000 years of Abraham PBUH, his PBUH race live in holly land hardly 400 years in parts.
Second Arab Muslim got holly land from European about 1500 years ago they are there since then.
Third before Islam Arab were there as christian and pagan called native.
Means jew are vagrant they can not build anything means you don't have to change anything because nothing was there. Please talk with sense.

You are not making sense. More specifically, you are applying different rules to the Jewish people than you do to others (Arabs, Europeans, Christians, pagans).

You admit that Arab Muslim "got" holy land from European. You admit (Christian) Europeans "got" holy land from "pagans". You admit that OTHER people existed there before Islam Arab.

Who was there before the Christian Europeans? Before the Arab Muslims? Who were the first peoples to understand that the Holy Land WAS a Holy Place? What made it Holy?

Are you denying the existence of G-d's Temple? Are you saying it never happened? It never existed?

Yes I am denying g-d because I beleave in God. Second when g-d forget about the temple why I should care about it. Third when you built temple on Persian/Roman joint empire land, what you thing the will accept yours legitimacy, of course not, they will kicked you out or slaved you as they did because you were not legitimate then too.

 

[Rehmani]

But israel is not a legitimate nation.

Well, objectively, what makes a nation "legitimate". How can one tell whether a nation is "legitimate" or not? What is the criteria?

​

You should tell me, if some one invade your home, will you call him legitimate owner? and you will leave.

It is the home of the Jewish people. Has been for 4000 years. Personally, I think the Arab invaders have rights and should have self-determination. But if you want to play the "no invaders are legitimate" game, then I'm in. When are the Arabs leaving, then?

First Moses PBUH never entered the Holy Land and quite possible Moses PBUH never directed the Jew to Jerusalem. When Moses PBUH got fed up from troubled jew He PBUH left them and disappeared in the hills.
Second we are here not to talking about Islam or Jew religion. It is a history Arab Muslim Took over from European and hold the sovereignty for almost 1500 years and they proved that Arab Muslim are sole custodian of the holy land not Persian/roman/European.
Third jew hardly lived in holy land for four hundred years as a vagrant on either Persian or Roman Land and these empire keep pushing jew around how un respectful it is and now you can see those false kingdom jew establish as jew established some king dome either jew kicked out from the land, by the empire owned the territory or taken away as slave.
Fourth, I don't know who Zionist are neither christian accept them christian nor jew accept them jew. I only know jew and I am addressing to jew in my signature comments that please live free, respectful life like others are living, like Persian and Roman are living happily whats wrong with jew when big empire can accept facts and living happily. Why not jew.

 

[Shusha]

It is a history Arab Muslim Took over from European and hold the sovereignty for almost 1500 years and they proved that Arab Muslim are sole custodian of the holy land not Persian/roman/European.

If the criteria for "sole custodian" of the holy land is who took over from whom -- then *shrug* the Jewish took it over from the Arab Muslims. So, by your own criteria, Jews win. Our Holy Land again.

 

[Rehmani]

Like israel is not a legitimate country. It was given mandate/status when there was only few WII Coalition country were UN member and Israelis accepted that UN order immediately.

International law is not a popular vote,
a contract between sovereign nations is it?

But israel is not a legitimate nation.
Then what is a popular vote?

A popular vote is not a thing the Palestinians have shown to appreciate.. There IS no more "popular vote" in Palestine.. That was a brief shiny moment in Palestinian history when they HAD a national govt.. That govt has been functionally dissolved for the past 12 years or so because of civil war and fighting...

No other period in "Palestinian history" featured a "national" popular vote. So why are you talking about popular votes??? WHOSE popular vote?

And this is about the 10th time you've repeated that Israel is illegitimate.. Saying it an 11th or 12th time, without discussing the ACTUAL history of this region -- just makes you look foolish..

It means if I have to play I have to follow yours rules.
Means how come you can call a invader or robber legitimate so please don't tell me now that robber or invader became gentleman and behaving as you want. And this country you called legitimate has huge financial and army support so it can show the world that how civilized it is (robber).

Really if You want to discuss cartoons, that could be in the rubber room.

Arabs and Muslims have invaded several continents, the word "Palestinian" literally means an invader,
and it literally bears the symbols of the 4 invading caliphates that once attempted to dominate the entire middle east, Africa and Europe.

Are You one of those who also demand Madrid return to Muslim rule?

LOOK, I don't call Palestine, I used Holy Land. Palestine given to them who enforced Israel and israel never exist in history.

 

[Rehmani]

Then I will say that popular vote for israel is only became possible, when UN gave mandate to Israel in 1947.

You say many stuff,
but the UN didn't give any mandate to Israel, it was not entitled to do so, the mandate, or recognition of right to govern was given with the obligation to follow the establishment of the re-constitution of the Jewish nation. The authority of the UN itself is preconditioned on following its constitution, which includes this legal obligation.

Then why you are choosy, discus all.

 

[flacaltenn]

First what is popular?
Second, if UN vote was popular in 1947 then why Israel refusing UN popular vote today?
Now you will say an election is a popular vote.

This is really easy to explain.. 1947 was a mandate to create Arab and Jewish zones. There were NO JEWS allowed in the Trans-Jordan section allocated to the Arabs. And there was NO occupation, no wars yet in which Israel won. So the World (UN) approved the deal..

Go forward to LATER UN votes.. In 1967, Israel occupied the West Bank because they were fighting for their lives and won that land. It belonged by INTERNATIONAL "popular vote" (as you put it) by JORDAN -- not the Palestinians. The Jordan mandate over the West Bank WAS internationally recognized by "popular vote" .

Israel negotiated with Jordan to RETURN the land, as they did successfully with Egypt, but it wasn't until the Palestinians mounted an all-out ATTACK on the King of Jordan that he decided he didn't WANT Palestinians or the West Bank anymore.. (Cool story -- I can give you the link to the official Kingdom of Jordan tales of fighting with the Palestinians -- See Black September).. Instead, Jordan/Israel signed a peace treaty AFTER Jordan renounced title to the land.

All THAT was entirely legal and by "popular vote" of the UN and the world..

Except now the "palestinian problem" became Israel's problem.. And with no LEADERSHIP to negotiate with that represents ALL of Palestinian interests -- it's become an "occupation" gone on too long.. But if you have no LEADERSHIP accepted by PALESTINIAN "popular vote" -- you have NO ONE to negotiate with for peace..

King of Jordan never GAVE the West Bank to the Palestinians outright because there was no political structure to give it to that Jordan wanted to be neighbors with.. Tho HE DID -- spend lots of money and build lots of infrastructure and gave Palis seats in the Jordanian Congress..

 

[Rehmani]

It is a history Arab Muslim Took over from European and hold the sovereignty for almost 1500 years and they proved that Arab Muslim are sole custodian of the holy land not Persian/roman/European.

If the criteria for "sole custodian" of the holy land is who took over from whom -- then *shrug* the Jewish took it over from the Arab Muslims. So, by your own criteria, Jews win. Our Holy Land again.

If you can hold it.
When you can not hold it in pass.
How you will hold it now.
First Moses PBUH never entered the Holy Land and quite possible Moses PBUH never directed the Jew to Jerusalem. When Moses PBUH got fed up from troubled jew He PBUH left them and disappeared in the hills.
Second we are here not to talking about Islam or Jew religion. It is a history Arab Muslim Took over from European and hold the sovereignty for almost 1500 years and they proved that Arab Muslim are sole custodian of the holy land not Persian/roman/European.
Third jew hardly lived in holy land for four hundred years as a vagrant on either Persian or Roman Land and these empire keep pushing jew around how un respectful it is and now you can see those false kingdom jew establish as jew established some king dome either jew kicked out from the land, by the empire owned the territory or taken away as slave.
Fourth, I don't know who Zionist are neither christian accept them christian nor jew accept them jew. I only know jew and I am addressing to jew in my signature comments that please live free, respectful life like others are living, like Persian and Roman are living happily whats wrong with jew when big empire can accept facts and living happily. Why not jew.