The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Shusha]

Agreed. So it was not the Treaty of Lausanne by which Jordan, as an example, acquired land. Which treaty was it then?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Agreed. So it was not the Treaty of Lausanne by which Jordan, as an example, acquired land. Which treaty was it then?

OK, this is how it works. The Allied Powers were predicting the fall of the Turkish Empire. They had treaties dividing the territory into successor states. Some things, that followed international law, is that the territory would not be annexed, and that the inhabitants would be the citizens of their respective state. The citizens would be the sovereigns within their new states.

Of course this was only preliminary as the territory was still under the sovereignty of the Turkish Empire. The only thing that the Treaty of Lausanne did was to release that territory from Turkey and specify nationality and citizenship of the people in those successor states. Again this followed international law.

 

[Shusha]

Fine. So what by which Treaty did Jordan acquire land?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Fine. So what by which Treaty did Jordan acquire land?

The Treaty of Lausanne released that land to the successor states. Jordan was one of them.

 

[Shusha]

Fine. So what by which Treaty did Jordan acquire land?

The Treaty of Lausanne released that land to the successor states. Jordan was one of them.

How do you know Jordan was one of them, if Jordan was not mentioned?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Fine. So what by which Treaty did Jordan acquire land?

The Treaty of Lausanne released that land to the successor states. Jordan was one of them.

How do you know Jordan was one of them, if Jordan was not mentioned?

Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan and Palestine were all successor states without exception. Why would one be any different than the other?

 

[Shusha]

Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan and Palestine were all successor states without exception. Why would one be any different than the other?

But how did Jordan acquire land? You said land can only be acquired by treaty. Which one?

The Treaty of Lausanne did not mention Lebanon, Jordan or Palestine. So how do you know they were the successor States? How do you know they acquired land?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan and Palestine were all successor states without exception. Why would one be any different than the other?

But how did Jordan acquire land? You said land can only be acquired by treaty. Which one?

The Treaty of Lausanne did not mention Lebanon, Jordan or Palestine. So how do you know they were the successor States? How do you know they acquired land?

You sound like you should do some reading.

 

[Shusha]

You sound like you should do some reading.

Got nothing, huh?

Look, I'm just following your lead here. Asking you questions about the statements YOU make. You said that States need to acquire land and the only way to do that is through a Treaty. So, by which Treaty did Jordan acquire land?

 

[P F Tinmore]

You sound like you should do some reading.

Got nothing, huh?

Look, I'm just following your lead here. Asking you questions about the statements YOU make. You said that States need to acquire land and the only way to do that is through a Treaty. So, by which Treaty did Jordan acquire land?

The Treaty of Lausanne released the land to all of the preplanned successor states. All of them. There were no exceptions.

 

[Shusha]

The Treaty of Lausanne released the land to all of the preplanned successor states. All of them. There were no exceptions.

We agree. We especially agree that there were no exceptions. (You do realize that it is YOU who is trying to make an exception, right?)

The Treaty of Lausanne does not name the preplanned successor States. So which Treaty names the preplanned successor State of Jordan and demonstrates Jordan's acquisition of territory?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Treaty of Lausanne released the land to all of the preplanned successor states. All of them. There were no exceptions.

We agree. We especially agree that there were no exceptions. (You do realize that it is YOU who is trying to make an exception, right?)

The Treaty of Lausanne does not name the preplanned successor States. So which Treaty names the preplanned successor State of Jordan and demonstrates Jordan's acquisition of territory?

Why are you grasping at straws? What is your agenda?

 

[Shusha]

Why are you grasping at straws? What is your agenda?

Me? Grasping at straws? Surely you jest.

YOU made the claim that States must acquire territory. YOU made the claim that acquisition of territory can only be made by treaty.

So, which treaty demonstrates the acquisition of territory by Jordan? YOU made the claim that it was the Treaty of Lausanne, even though that treaty does not mention Jordan.

YOU make the claim that there is a list of preplanned States which were intended to acquire territory and did, in point of fact, acquire territory. Where would I find such a list? In which treaty is this list found?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Why are you grasping at straws? What is your agenda?

Me? Grasping at straws? Surely you jest.

YOU made the claim that States must acquire territory. YOU made the claim that acquisition of territory can only be made by treaty.

So, which treaty demonstrates the acquisition of territory by Jordan? YOU made the claim that it was the Treaty of Lausanne, even though that treaty does not mention Jordan.

YOU make the claim that there is a list of preplanned States which were intended to acquire territory and did, in point of fact, acquire territory. Where would I find such a list? In which treaty is this list found?

I can't comprehend how all of this just goes over your head.

 

[Shusha]

I can't comprehend how all of this just goes over your head.

Hey, I'm just following your argument. YOU claim that a State has to demonstrate its acquisition of territory through a treaty.

So, which treaty states that Jordan acquired territory? OR, if you decide that you don't need a specific treaty which demonstrates that Jordan acquired territory -- but that there was this list of preplanned States -- then show me where this list is. OR if there is no such list then show me how you know Jordan is on the list and acquired territory.

Or admit that your argument is insupportable.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I can't comprehend how all of this just goes over your head.

Hey, I'm just following your argument. YOU claim that a State has to demonstrate its acquisition of territory through a treaty.

So, which treaty states that Jordan acquired territory? OR, if you decide that you don't need a specific treaty which demonstrates that Jordan acquired territory -- but that there was this list of preplanned States -- then show me where this list is. OR if there is no such list then show me how you know Jordan is on the list and acquired territory.

Or admit that your argument is insupportable.

It did. It is still there and undisputed.

 

[Shusha]

I can't comprehend how all of this just goes over your head.

Hey, I'm just following your argument. YOU claim that a State has to demonstrate its acquisition of territory through a treaty.

So, which treaty states that Jordan acquired territory? OR, if you decide that you don't need a specific treaty which demonstrates that Jordan acquired territory -- but that there was this list of preplanned States -- then show me where this list is. OR if there is no such list then show me how you know Jordan is on the list and acquired territory.

Or admit that your argument is insupportable.

It did. It is still there and undisputed.

"It did", what?

Jordan acquired territory by treaty? Cool. What treaty creates the acquisition of territory by Jordan?

A treaty which mentions Jordan? Or a treaty that doesn't mention Jordan? If it doesn't mention Jordan how do we know Jordan was meant?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I can't comprehend how all of this just goes over your head.

Hey, I'm just following your argument. YOU claim that a State has to demonstrate its acquisition of territory through a treaty.

So, which treaty states that Jordan acquired territory? OR, if you decide that you don't need a specific treaty which demonstrates that Jordan acquired territory -- but that there was this list of preplanned States -- then show me where this list is. OR if there is no such list then show me how you know Jordan is on the list and acquired territory.

Or admit that your argument is insupportable.

It did. It is still there and undisputed.

"It did", what?

Jordan acquired territory by treaty? Cool. What treaty creates the acquisition of territory by Jordan?

A treaty which mentions Jordan? Or a treaty that doesn't mention Jordan? If it doesn't mention Jordan how do we know Jordan was meant?

The land was already there. The people were already there. the only difference was that they were no longer under Turkish rule. Nobody had to "give" them anything.

 

[Shusha]

I can't comprehend how all of this just goes over your head.

Hey, I'm just following your argument. YOU claim that a State has to demonstrate its acquisition of territory through a treaty.

So, which treaty states that Jordan acquired territory? OR, if you decide that you don't need a specific treaty which demonstrates that Jordan acquired territory -- but that there was this list of preplanned States -- then show me where this list is. OR if there is no such list then show me how you know Jordan is on the list and acquired territory.

Or admit that your argument is insupportable.

It did. It is still there and undisputed.

"It did", what?

Jordan acquired territory by treaty? Cool. What treaty creates the acquisition of territory by Jordan?

A treaty which mentions Jordan? Or a treaty that doesn't mention Jordan? If it doesn't mention Jordan how do we know Jordan was meant?

The land was already there. The people were already there. the only difference was that they were no longer under Turkish rule. Nobody had to "give" them anything.

So now you are pulling back your whole silly claim and saying that States don't have to acquire territory?

You are unbelievable.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I can't comprehend how all of this just goes over your head.

Hey, I'm just following your argument. YOU claim that a State has to demonstrate its acquisition of territory through a treaty.

So, which treaty states that Jordan acquired territory? OR, if you decide that you don't need a specific treaty which demonstrates that Jordan acquired territory -- but that there was this list of preplanned States -- then show me where this list is. OR if there is no such list then show me how you know Jordan is on the list and acquired territory.

Or admit that your argument is insupportable.

It did. It is still there and undisputed.

"It did", what?

Jordan acquired territory by treaty? Cool. What treaty creates the acquisition of territory by Jordan?

A treaty which mentions Jordan? Or a treaty that doesn't mention Jordan? If it doesn't mention Jordan how do we know Jordan was meant?

The land was already there. The people were already there. the only difference was that they were no longer under Turkish rule. Nobody had to "give" them anything.

So now you are pulling back your whole silly claim and saying that States don't have to acquire territory?

You are unbelievable.

Why are you trying to make this more complicated than it is? This is how it went down in Palestine which was the same for all of the new states.
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The Treaty of Peace between the allied powers and Turkey officially ending World War I was signed in Lausanne, Switzerland, on 24 July 1923.121 Setting out the legal status of the territories detached from Turkey, the Treaty had the effect of law in Palestine, as it was extended to this country by an ordinance,122 on 6 August 1924.

The status of Palestine and the nationality of its inhabitants were finally settled by the Treaty of Lausanne from the perspective of public international law. In a report submitted to the League of Nations, the British government pointed out: “The ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne in Aug., 1924, finally regularised the international status of Palestine.”123 And, thereafter, “Palestine could, at last, obtain a separate nationality.”124

Most of the post-World War I peace treaties embodied nationality provisions and the Treaty of Lausanne was no exception.125 It addressed the nationality of the inhabitants in the territories detached from Turkey in Articles 30-6. These articles replaced, with certain modifications, Articles 123-31 of the draft Treaty of Sèvres of 1920.126

Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.”​

Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel