The party of small government again........living together not being married.

[Curried Goats]

You are the one that claimed consent, not me.

I'm the one that claimed consent in what context you Bingo? Should I take your statement here to mean you're anti-consent since we're just making up context as we go along? Do you not know how to form questions or arguments with context? Do you need me to explain to you what context is as if you were a slow child?

I think human interactions should be consensual and I think consent has an objective meaning which is the ability to make informed decisions. I think adulthood, generally thought to be around 18 - 21 (at least here in this county) is more subjective than objective but still within what would generally be the objective range. If you need any help understanding any of that ask someone else, I'm just going to point and laugh at what is sure to be your Bingo reply.

You left out pubescent children. Why is that?

Because you accused me of being a pedophile. Do you often use words who's meaning you don't fully understand?

 

[Curried Goats]

Which is why we object to children deciding they want to be the other gender and adults going along with it.

Consent is required for interactions with others, not ones self.

 

[AMart]

"Single Mothers" loophole. Benefits come in yet main squeeze of the month lives for free or contributes cash on the sly.

We have winner!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mac-7]

Here we go again with the small government Republicans. Voting to keep an already not enforced law in Michigan that bans non married couples from living together.

It may be in different ways but it's crazy how both parties have this insane desire to control the people in ways that are none of their business.

Michigan Republicans Vote To Keep Law Barring Unwed Couples From Living Together

Its sound advice

But in today’s anything-goes lib culture the law is unenforceable

 

[hadit]

Consent is required for interactions with others, not ones self.

The key here is "informed decision", not consent. Children simply can't make that decision for themselves. We don't let them do all sorts of things because they are too immature to make a truly informed decision, especially about permanent alterations to their bodies. How can you on the one hand say that a 10-year-old girl is not old enough to get a tattoo of a Disney Princess on her back but is old enough to have surgeries and hormone treatments that can render her sterile and shorten her life?

 

[Curried Goats]

The key here is "informed decision", not consent. Children simply can't make that decision for themselves. We don't let them do all sorts of things because they are too immature to make a truly informed decision, especially about permanent alterations to their bodies.

Children might not be able to but teenagers can be. I think once you start talking about 16 - 17 year olds then the question of whether they are capable of informed decision making isn't so easily dismissed. And that's them being able to make informed decisions on their own. When we're talking about in conjunction with their parents then it's even easier right? Also I think it's important what they are consenting to. Not all decisions are equally important or impactful.

How can you on the one hand say that a 10-year-old girl is not old enough to get a tattoo of a Disney Princess on her back but is old enough to have surgeries and hormone treatments that can render her sterile and shorten her life?

Well it goes back to informed consent and what these words actually mean. Tattoo artists aren't medical professionals and they aren't making comparable recommendations. They don't have comparable educations. We ask tattoo artists for tattoo recommendations and where we should we place them. We don't ask them whether they're safe physically or psychologically for children or their thoughts on chemo therapy. For Healthcare considerations we turn to the people who are informed about healthcare.

 

[hadit]

Children might not be able to but teenagers can be. I think once you start talking about 16 - 17 year olds then the question of whether they are capable of informed decision making isn't so easily dismissed. And that's them being able to make informed decisions on their own. When we're talking about in conjunction with their parents then it's even easier right? Also I think it's important what they are consenting to. Not all decisions are equally important or impactful.

There has to be a line somewhere, and we've determined that, for most things, a person is mature enough at the age of 18 to make a lot of decisions for themselves about a lot of things. Not everything, you understand, just some things. They are not typically allowed to choose to purchase alcohol or tobacco for themselves until later in life. Now, again, I think they should be completely mature and fully adult before we allow them to decide they want to undergo surgery and hormone treatments that will likely render them sterile and shorten their lives. If they're too young to get a tattoo, buy tobacco or alcohol because they are too immature, I do not believe they can be trusted to make such a permanent, body altering decision.

Well it goes back to informed consent and what these words actually mean. Tattoo artists aren't medical professionals and they aren't making comparable recommendations. They don't have comparable educations. We ask tattoo artists for tattoo recommendations and where we should we place them. We don't ask them whether they're safe physically or psychologically for children or their thoughts on chemo therapy. For Healthcare considerations we turn to the people who are informed about healthcare.

We don't consult with tattoo artists about putting them on children precisely because children are too young and immature to make the decision for themselves. Therefore, the artist doesn't have to worry about whether he/she is going to harm a child, because no child will be brought to them for inking. As for transitioning being healthcare, mental health care is still in its infancy, and we don't know yet what the long-term effects of transitioning really are. Does transitioning really give a person a safe, secure lifestyle for the rest of their lives or do they live in regret, cursing those who rushed to put them through it when they were young? What is the suicide rate of transitioned people vs non? What is the impact on lifespan?

We're in a fad season right now where there are people making big bucks hand over fist and it's trendy to be trans to get a lot of attention. I don't think that's a very good thing for kids to be exposed to.

 

[Curried Goats]

There has to be a line somewhere, and we've determined that, for most things, a person is mature enough at the age of 18 to make a lot of decisions for themselves about a lot of things.

I don't accept your premise that there has to be a line somewhere and that line should be an arbitrary age the majority chooses. That may be how democracy is determined but its the not the process by which we come by objectivity. We allow minors to sue for emancipation and we allow doctors to sue for temporary custody when they believe they have more relevant information on Healthcare treatments than parents who might be making those decisions based on religions beliefs because we have to consider the possibility that these people might be more informed.

Not everything, you understand, just some things. They are not typically allowed to choose to purchase alcohol or tobacco for themselves until later in life.

They used to be but they aren't any longer because medical research proved the objective harm in them including for mothers who drink during pregnancy which used to be a lot more common.

Now, again, I think they should be completely mature and fully adult before we allow them to decide they want to undergo surgery and hormone treatments that will likely render them sterile and shorten their lives.

Then the question becomes who are you and is this an informed opinion? Informed by what exactly?

If they're too young to get a tattoo, buy tobacco or alcohol because they are too immature, I do not believe they can be trusted to make such a permanent, body altering decision.

I don't trust anyone's ability for rational thought when they don't see the inherent differences in alcohol, tattoos and healthcare.

We don't consult with tattoo artists about putting them on children precisely because children are too young and immature to make the decision for themselves. Therefore, the artist doesn't have to worry about whether he/she is going to harm a child, because no child will be brought to them for inking. As for transitioning being healthcare, mental health care is still in its infancy, and we don't know yet what the long-term effects of transitioning really are. Does transitioning really give a person a safe, secure lifestyle for the rest of their lives or do they live in regret, cursing those who rushed to put them through it when they were young? What is the suicide rate of transitioned people vs non? What is the impact on lifespan?

Maybe these are answers you should discover for yourself before you claim to make informed arguments.

We're in a fad season right now where there are people making big bucks hand over fist and it's trendy to be trans to get a lot of attention. I don't think that's a very good thing for kids to be exposed to.

Prove it.

 

[hadit]

I don't accept your premise that there has to be a line somewhere and that line should be an arbitrary age the majority chooses. That may be how democracy is determined but its the not the process by which we come by objectivity. We allow minors to sue for emancipation and we allow doctors to sue for temporary custody when they believe they have more relevant information on Healthcare treatments than parents who might be making those decisions based on religions beliefs because we have to consider the possibility that these people might be more informed.

Then a child that is being pushed to transition should prove to a judge that he/she is mature enough to make that permanent, body-altering decision, and that he/she fully understands the ramifications.

They used to be but they aren't any longer because medical research proved the objective harm in them including for mothers who drink during pregnancy which used to be a lot more common.

Yet adults are still able to decide for themselves to consume tobacco and alcohol, and we let them do it because we ASSUME THEY ARE MATURE ENOUGH TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES. This is something we do not allow children to do specifically because they are NOT mature enough.

Then the question becomes who are you and is this an informed opinion? Informed by what exactly?

Sterility? Are you kidding? Men lose their testicles in order to stop producing testosterone and not have to use as many blockers. And, of course, if a woman wants to be a man, does she still want to deal with ovulation and menstruation every month? Besides, we're talking about children here who are put on puberty blockers and given a lot of different hormones that mess with their natural maturation. Feel free to look all of this up, of course.

I don't trust anyone's ability for rational thought when they don't see the inherent differences in alcohol, tattoos and healthcare.

The common thread, though, cannot be denied, and that is the maturity of the person requesting them. We don't trust people to be mature enough to make some decisions until they are adults, and surgery and hormone treatments solely for the purpose of feminizing or masculinizing their bodies should be one of them.

Maybe these are answers you should discover for yourself before you claim to make informed arguments.

Prove it.

The total cost for all the procedures to transition can range from $200K to $300K. Hormone costs can run to several thousand dollars per year, and that's for a lifetime. Yeah, there's a lot of money to be made on this, and the younger the patient, the more money to be made.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

There has to be a line somewhere, and we've determined that, for most things, a person is mature enough at the age of 18 to make a lot of decisions for themselves about a lot of things. Not everything, you understand, just some things. They are not typically allowed to choose to purchase alcohol or tobacco for themselves until later in life. Now, again, I think they should be completely mature and fully adult before we allow them to decide they want to undergo surgery and hormone treatments that will likely render them sterile and shorten their lives. If they're too young to get a tattoo, buy tobacco or alcohol because they are too immature, I do not believe they can be trusted to make such a permanent, body altering decision.

We don't consult with tattoo artists about putting them on children precisely because children are too young and immature to make the decision for themselves. Therefore, the artist doesn't have to worry about whether he/she is going to harm a child, because no child will be brought to them for inking. As for transitioning being healthcare, mental health care is still in its infancy, and we don't know yet what the long-term effects of transitioning really are. Does transitioning really give a person a safe, secure lifestyle for the rest of their lives or do they live in regret, cursing those who rushed to put them through it when they were young? What is the suicide rate of transitioned people vs non? What is the impact on lifespan?

We're in a fad season right now where there are people making big bucks hand over fist and it's trendy to be trans to get a lot of attention. I don't think that's a very good thing for kids to be exposed to.

Reasonably argued and a position I think many thoughtful Liberals and Democratic voters can accept. It may not be a “party-line” position, but I find widespread doubts on this subject among my liberal and Democratic-voting friends and acquaintances.

I think there is a light-minded faddishness about some of these issues in liberal culture at large, which can encourage individual youth to make irreversible “transitioning” decisions they will later regret.

Of course this is a complicated issue. There still really are individual situations where hospitals, doctors & parents together feel obligated to make decisions — for example with newborns — to “assign” sex and do necessary surgery on undeveloped genitalia. Also, the ordinary heterosexual “socializing” and raising of youth as strictly “masculine” or “feminine” can ALSO often lead to social abuse and bullying of kids. Nothing new about this.

But the new “faddishness” and “pushyness” you mention I believe does exist, as do surgeons and counselors not sufficiently restrained — whose recommendations I almost certainly would personally disagree with as a parent or grandparent.

Haven’t read the many proposed or passed state laws restricting “transitioning ” hormone therapy and surgeries for youth, so I won’t speak on them here.

 

[Curried Goats]

Then a child that is being pushed to transition should prove to a judge that he/she is mature enough to make that permanent, body-altering decision, and that he/she fully understands the ramifications.

First let's be accurate with our terminology. Children are only undergoing social transitions. These are things like identifying or dressing as another gender. Social transitioning isn't a medical intervention and doesn't require the consent of a medical professional however psychologists do recommend that you don't try to force children into adhering to a specific gender or sexual preference.

Medical interventions such as puberty blockers, hormone treatments and surgeries don't come until after puberty. Medical interventions require the consent of medical professionals who are the ones making informed recommendations for treatment. What adolescents are consenting to is whether or not to accept that recommendation. What gets lost in this debate is that adolescents aren't prescribing these treatments to themselves, doctors are and the Right always wants to skip past why to argue that no one under the 18 is able to give consent to these treatments without any evidence supporting such an argument.

Yet adults are still able to decide for themselves to consume tobacco and alcohol, and we let them do it because we ASSUME THEY ARE MATURE ENOUGH TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES. This is something we do not allow children to do specifically because they are NOT mature enough.

We don't allow children to prescribe any of their own medicine and I'm not arguing we should. I'm arguing the informed recommendations are coming from doctors, not randos on the internet.

Sterility? Are you kidding? Men lose their testicles in order to stop producing testosterone and not have to use as many blockers. And, of course, if a woman wants to be a man, does she still want to deal with ovulation and menstruation every month? Besides, we're talking about children here who are put on puberty blockers and given a lot of different hormones that mess with their natural maturation. Feel free to look all of this up, of course.

You feel free to present whatever evidence you think supports your argument.

The common thread, though, cannot be denied, and that is the maturity of the person requesting them. We don't trust people to be mature enough to make some decisions until they are adults, and surgery and hormone treatments solely for the purpose of feminizing or masculinizing their bodies should be one of them.

These aren't requests these are medical diagnoses.

The total cost for all the procedures to transition can range from $200K to $300K. Hormone costs can run to several thousand dollars per year, and that's for a lifetime. Yeah, there's a lot of money to be made on this, and the younger the patient, the more money to be made.

Medicare for all baby. I support it, why don't you?

 

[Curried Goats]

Of course this is a complicated issue. There still really are individual situations where hospitals, doctors & parents together feel obligated to make decisions — for example with newborns — to “assign” sex and do necessary surgery on undeveloped genitalia. Also, the ordinary heterosexual “socializing” and raising of youth as strictly “masculine” or “feminine” can ALSO often lead to social abuse and bullying of kids. Nothing new about this.

It's emerging more and more through research and results that this is the ignorant approach. That the best outcome is increasingly seen as allowing the child to develop naturally and decide later which way they want to go with regards to medical interventions, if at all. That we see diverse gender presentations are errors that need to fixed is ignorantly self involved.

 

[Blues Man]

It's not the fucking government's business who anyone lives with.

 

[hadit]

First let's be accurate with our terminology. Children are only undergoing social transitions. These are things like identifying or dressing as another gender. Social transitioning isn't a medical intervention and doesn't require the consent of a medical professional however psychologists do recommend that you don't try to force children into adhering to a specific gender or sexual preference.

Of course, it's not a permanent thing, either, and children grow up and decide it's not for them anymore. That's not what we're talking about, though.

Medical interventions such as puberty blockers, hormone treatments and surgeries don't come until after puberty.

That's nice to say, but GnRH analogue treatment can begin at the START of puberty. And, of course, these can lead to bone density loss, future sterility, and stress when the child doesn't develop at the same time as his/her peers. As of last year, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health lowered its recommended minimum age for hormone treatments to 14, and 15 to 17 for surgeries. I don't know about you, but 14 and 15 year olds typically are not considered to be completely out of puberty.

Medical interventions require the consent of medical professionals who are the ones making informed recommendations for treatment. What adolescents are consenting to is whether or not to accept that recommendation.

And they are not fully qualified to accept it or not, because they are unable to truly understand what transitioning really means in the long term. Add to that the trendiness of transitioning for teenagers desperate for attention and the ever-present money to be made, and there's clearly a need for an advocate against transitioning, to help anyone looking to transition to get the whole picture.

What gets lost in this debate is that adolescents aren't prescribing these treatments to themselves, doctors are and the Right always wants to skip past why to argue that no one under the 18 is able to give consent to these treatments without any evidence supporting such an argument.

Adolescents are asking for the treatments, they're not prescribing them. I don't think you're seeing the difference. There are emerging, however, cases of people who were pressured into transitioning and now regret it tremendously, but can't do anything about it.

We don't allow children to prescribe any of their own medicine and I'm not arguing we should. I'm arguing the informed recommendations are coming from doctors, not randos on the internet.

Yet "randos on the internet" are applying pressure to kids today and are pushing them into ever more destructive patterns of behavior. That's not even controversial. Take a autistic kid who already feels extremely uncomfortable around his/her peers and let puberty start. Suddenly the discomfort is magnified many times and the usual suspects are right there to recommend a transition that's totally unnecessary. It should be a measure of last resort, if at all.

You feel free to present whatever evidence you think supports your argument.

These aren't requests these are medical diagnoses.

Medicare for all baby. I support it, why don't you?

That's not going to change the fact that a lot of money is there to be made from this whole thing. It doesn't matter if a private insurance company, Medicare, Medicaid, or the parents themselves pay for it, there's a lot of money to be made, and claims from those who stand to make the money need to be viewed with great skepticism.

 

[80zephyr]

I work to get it changed.

Think of slavery, civil rights and whether women can vote or not.

I'm the one that claimed consent in what context you Bingo? Should I take your statement here to mean you're anti-consent since we're just making up context as we go along? Do you not know how to form questions or arguments with context? Do you need me to explain to you what context is as if you were a slow child?

I think human interactions should be consensual and I think consent has an objective meaning which is the ability to make informed decisions. I think adulthood, generally thought to be around 18 - 21 (at least here in this county) is more subjective than objective but still within what would generally be the objective range. If you need any help understanding any of that ask someone else, I'm just going to point and laugh at what is sure to be your Bingo reply.

Because you accused me of being a pedophile. Do you often use words who's meaning you don't fully understand?

Girls can reach puberty at 10. That is NOT pre pubescent. Looks to me like you are saying she can consent.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Let's face a reality here. NONE of us are present when these things happen. Therefore, we ALL rely on someone ELSE to tell us what happened, and those people ALSO are not present when things happen, so they rely on someone else. Therefore, it comes down to whether or not we can trust the talking heads and voices to tell us the truth about what happened, and that they're telling the whole truth, not just the pieces that happen to further their narrative.

Given the reality that "journalism" in America today is less about recording what happened and more about furthering a left-wing agenda, I don't have a lot of trust in the talking heads. If you think there is not big money in lying to the left wing, I have a rainbow farting unicorn in my backyard I'll sell you, cheap.

Auditory Hallucinations

Like people who eventually get put away into mental institutions, those who listen to the media are hearing Voices From a Box.

Notice how the On-Air AirHeads, no matter what their ideology, use the same #Stupid Speak grammar? That's as revealing as if they all spoke with the same regional accent. They are a bipartisan demonic clique.

 

[Billiejeens]

I generally agree but adulthood is more subjective than objective. Consent is more about whether or not you have the ability to make informed decisions.

So 35?

 

[Curried Goats]

So 35?

That from personal experience?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Girls can reach puberty at 10. That is NOT pre pubescent. Looks to me like you are saying she can consent.

I do not know why you quoted me, I said no such fucking thing

 

[Billiejeens]

That from personal experience?

It's my personal good observation and judgment.