The Problem with Christian Apocalypticism

[the_human_being]

They keep letting polluters put tons of mercury into the air, because they think the rapture is coming and it won't matter.

And just exactly how are Christians doing this? Show your proof. Provide a link.

 

[the_human_being]

Well, I have asked the OP and another poster to put up here how they are assisting the poor, the ill, and the disadvantaged since they claim Christians should be footing the bill for all their programs. I asked them to show us all by their own example. I am still awaiting their response. I would really like them to provide their own personal example for us all to follow.

 

[The Irish Ram]

So there are no atheists running the companies that are polluters? Only Christian companies pollute? Saint Exon? The Saint Paul Coal Company? They're the worst!

 

[kjw47]

Let me just follow up a bit for Indeependent so he can provide what I am looking for in regard to my request for information. In 1 Thessalonians, Paul is responding to concerns that the congregation of the church at Thessalonika has. Specifically, they appear to be concerned that those who have died prior to Jesus' return will not ascend to heaven. Paul writes that the dead who were believers will ascend first following by the living faithful.

This is very different from modern Christian belief where at the moment of death you are immediately sent to heaven or hell (or sometimes purgatory depending on your faith). But it's a critical point. In Chritianity, reward or punishment is immediate, but Paul's writing suggest that the 1st century Jewish concept of death did not involve immediate judgement. This was one of Paul's main points about "beating death". Paul argued that through the resurrection of Jesus, death had been defeated. So my question to Indeependent is to give us some perspective on that.

Everyone who dies goes to the grave--the resurrection does not occur until post Har-mageddon--except the ones( little flock) who go in the first resurrection. 144,000( Rev 14:3) from the earth to heaven--this is the bride of Christ.
These are the only ones who will enter heaven.

 

[TheCrusader]

The meaning of Apocalypse is Revelation.

This thread would be better if it didn't think the two were different and the book of Revelation was the Revelation of an apocalypse. To a Greek that'd be a revelation of a revelation.

Thread therefore = stupid argument.

 

[tyroneweaver]

I think you depiction of Christ as an apocalyptic is flawed...... since he knows date and time he knew it would not happen in their lifetime and since his has no beginning or end......

Jesus is the son of the true living God=YHWH(Jehovah) Jehovah is the Father--only he knows the day and hour. The son does not know.

Forumites: Jehovah is Jesus. Jehovah is the Son not the Father.
Chapters 1 and 2 of Revelations state that Jehovah died.

 

[kjw47]

I think you depiction of Christ as an apocalyptic is flawed...... since he knows date and time he knew it would not happen in their lifetime and since his has no beginning or end......

Jesus is the son of the true living God=YHWH(Jehovah) Jehovah is the Father--only he knows the day and hour. The son does not know.

Forumites: Jehovah is Jesus. Jehovah is the Son not the Father.
Chapters 1 and 2 of Revelations state that Jehovah died.

You are seriously mistranslating.

 

[Snouter]

...the gospels cannot be accurate and suddenly the Bible becomes unreliable.

"Suddenly?" The jewish/christian bible is unreliable starting at Genesis with its flat Earth and other assorted, primitively plagiarized mythology.

Anyone else see a way around this problem?

There is no problem. It is simply a book of false prophecy that simply tried to prophesize some that was to occur in a few years. In fact, Revelation was a book against the Romans in CE 69 because the Essene author knew Nero "the first beast" was dead but unaware that the temple had burned (CE 70). The "second beast" the Essene alluded to was Vespasian. It is sad and pathetic people try to apply this false prophecy to modern times. The Jesus character was simply an insane Essene who wanted to start his own sub cult but failed. All the other material is how the authors morphed him from the messiah of jews to overcome Rome, to "your personal savior over death." And in doing so, the religions have to ignore "teachings" Jesus actually delivered such as cutting off body parts, hating one's family, etc.

 

[HaShev]

None of the christ figures used for the Jesus image were Essene. Don't think the Essenes ever had a messianic figure, because they were Melchizedek influenced and fixated, thus a Michaeline sect (those who taught Michael as HaMoshiach).
Scrolls:
Commentary on
Isaiah mentions the Prince of the Congregation-"Michael", as the
Davidic Messiah (scroll 4 Q285 Fr. 5 which is written in the Book of Isaiah & In the "Isaiah Commentary" scroll: (IQSb,v 20-29)

War Scroll” (4Q471)
Where in verse XVII, it says, “God will send eternal bliss by the might of the Princely Angel of "the Kingdom of Michael". He will enlighten with joy the children of Israel.

Words of the Archangel Michael scroll 4Q529, 6Q23 YeruShalem will carry his name. Shalem is the evening star(the rising archangel Michael).

The Coming of Melchizedek (king/messenger of righteousness) (11Q19-20)

Commander of G-d of Israel, 4Q285, Fr.4&5 and fr 10

1QM v, 1-2) States:He (Michael)will not have much room to act as Royal Messiah while battling the Sons of Darkness.
“God himself is a supreme agent of salvation and after him in importance is Michael.”

4QSe (4Q259) the Moshiach's Aaron Lineage,

IIQ13 "Heavenly Prince Melchizedek Scroll" about Michael conducting the atonement day Judgment.
Blessings scroll (1QSb=1Q28b)
V:20 "blessings of the Prince of the Congregation (Michael)
Renew him the covenant of the community so he might establish the kingdom of his people for ever, that he might judge the poor with righteousness & dispense Justice with equity to the oppressed.

4Q285 5&10 Judgment of the Kittim (Romans)

Dead Sea Scrolls:
llQMelch ll,9,13 ,
4Q246 ,
1QS x12-18

 

[kjw47]

...the gospels cannot be accurate and suddenly the Bible becomes unreliable.

"Suddenly?" The jewish/christian bible is unreliable starting at Genesis with its flat Earth and other assorted, primitively plagiarized mythology.

Anyone else see a way around this problem?

There is no problem. It is simply a book of false prophecy that simply tried to prophesize some that was to occur in a few years. In fact, Revelation was a book against the Romans in CE 69 because the Essene author knew Nero "the first beast" was dead but unaware that the temple had burned (CE 70). The "second beast" the Essene alluded to was Vespasian. It is sad and pathetic people try to apply this false prophecy to modern times. The Jesus character was simply an insane Essene who wanted to start his own sub cult but failed. All the other material is how the authors morphed him from the messiah of jews to overcome Rome, to "your personal savior over death." And in doing so, the religions have to ignore "teachings" Jesus actually delivered such as cutting off body parts, hating one's family, etc.

You are badly misformed--- The two horned beast( final world power had to be in place for Revelation to be occurring.-- The whole world has been watching this( Rev 13) occur for years now.
The roman empire was #5-- the british empire was #6-- the two horned beast is #7-- the first 4 are listed in Daniel 7

 

[tyroneweaver]

This is turning into quite the thread.
HaShev and JW should rent a room

 

[kjw47]

This is turning into quite the thread.
HaShev and JW should rent a room

Why would you say something like that?

 

[BluePhantom]

...the gospels cannot be accurate and suddenly the Bible becomes unreliable.

"Suddenly?" The jewish/christian bible is unreliable starting at Genesis with its flat Earth and other assorted, primitively plagiarized mythology.

The initial mythology in Genesis does not necessarily invalidate the theological concepts described thereafter.

In fact, Revelation was a book against the Romans in CE 69 because the Essene author knew Nero "the first beast" was dead but unaware that the temple had burned (CE 70). The "second beast" the Essene alluded to was Vespasian.

Yes, yes...everyone knows this. But we are not talking about what later Christian authors had to say. We are concerned with what Jesus had to say.

It is sad and pathetic people try to apply this false prophecy to modern times.

Again...yes, yes....we all know this. Snooze. Tell us something we don't already know.

The Jesus character was simply an insane Essene who wanted to start his own sub cult but failed.

There is not a shred of evidence that Jesus was an Essene and with over 2 billion Christians in the world I think your definition of failure might require some adjustment.

All the other material is how the authors morphed him from the messiah of jews to overcome Rome, to "your personal savior over death." And in doing so, the religions have to ignore "teachings" Jesus actually delivered such as cutting off body parts, hating one's family, etc.

I don't think anyone actually knows what Jesus taught, you included. We know what is attributed to Him by later authors, but that's about it and that is a very significant difference.

 

[HaShev]

They place him in everything even toast, potato chips, and driping rust stains. When the scrolls were interpreted and released it became problematic that Michael was the Scrolls focus and Moshiach, so of course they are gonna place Jesus fallaciously in the newly found text and group of Essenes.
Why else would we call them the father of all lies?

 

[kjw47]

...the gospels cannot be accurate and suddenly the Bible becomes unreliable.

"Suddenly?" The jewish/christian bible is unreliable starting at Genesis with its flat Earth and other assorted, primitively plagiarized mythology.

Anyone else see a way around this problem?

There is no problem. It is simply a book of false prophecy that simply tried to prophesize some that was to occur in a few years. In fact, Revelation was a book against the Romans in CE 69 because the Essene author knew Nero "the first beast" was dead but unaware that the temple had burned (CE 70). The "second beast" the Essene alluded to was Vespasian. It is sad and pathetic people try to apply this false prophecy to modern times. The Jesus character was simply an insane Essene who wanted to start his own sub cult but failed. All the other material is how the authors morphed him from the messiah of jews to overcome Rome, to "your personal savior over death." And in doing so, the religions have to ignore "teachings" Jesus actually delivered such as cutting off body parts, hating one's family, etc.

Jesus didn't actually mean to cut off body parts--nor hate ones family---

 

[HaShev]

Cult expressions, they require you to sever ties with family who will talk you out of the cult nonsense.