The "raiding" of the Social Security Trust. What you don't know, and why you're probably an idiot.

[NYcarbineer]

Yes, the government legally requires itself to spend the money instead of saving it and so there is no actual trust fund. that was clever of them

Do you have any clue how many trust funds, retirement plans, pension funds, IRA's, 401K's, 403B's, etc., etc.,

have all or part of their money invested in US treasuries?

No, you probably don't because you're retarded.

SS is NOT invested in US treasuries. The Trust fund holds only "intragovernmental IOUs".. There IS a difference.

OK, NYDumbass, you are on ignore, you know that. Obviously given the number of responses I see where others respond to you responding directly to me, you are responding to me very frequently. If you want to be paroled in April, cut the shit. And obviously you want to engage in conversation with me. So when you do get paroled, cut the crap of making every post about calling me a Republican. you agree with them WAY more than I do, it's not close

flacaltenn, as for SS, you're totally right, loaning yourself money is not an asset, government can't loan itself money and call it a "trust fund," it's just stupid.

The government does not loan itself money because the Trust Fund doesn't belong to the government.

Why is that so hard for you idiots to understand?

Wrong in the trillion column

The government can't touch SS funds except to borrow them. SS funds are owned by the contributors and current and future eligible recipients.

 

[NYcarbineer]

[

How social security works is government lies to you and tells you that you're saving for your retirement and they spend your money as it comes in like they do all other taxes. ..

See, this is the root of the idiocy. The government does not do that. SS is a Trust Fund.

Please figure out what a Trust Fund is before you further make a fool of yourself.

Who owns this imaginary "Trust Fund"?

Who owns any Trust Fund? The people who are eligible currently or in the future to be paid benefits.

The money invested by the Trust Fund is no different than the money your money market fund invests in US Treasuries. If SS money is imaginary, then all the money that every US bond bill or other security represents is imaginary.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

[

How social security works is government lies to you and tells you that you're saving for your retirement and they spend your money as it comes in like they do all other taxes. ..

See, this is the root of the idiocy. The government does not do that. SS is a Trust Fund.

Please figure out what a Trust Fund is before you further make a fool of yourself.

Who owns this imaginary "Trust Fund"?

Who owns any Trust Fund? The people who are eligible currently or in the future to be paid benefits.

The money invested by the Trust Fund is no different than the money your money market fund invests in US Treasuries. If SS money is imaginary, then all the money that every US bond bill or other security represents is imaginary.

So what exactly do I "OWN"?

Can I call in an order to liquidate the treasuries and invest the proceeds in Berkshire Hathaway?

 

[flacaltenn]

The important stuff -- You said..

"" Most people would be better keeping their retirement in SS than investing themselves, just like most people should listen to what their doctor says rather than prescribing their medical maladies themselves. ""

Sounds pretty damn close to saying that folks shouldn't invest --- because SS is superior. I know you think folks are idiots -- so have the Govt FORCE them to invest. Into defined market based programs. Especially leftists who don't recognized when they've been robbed. TWICE.

I didn't say people are idiots. That's you projecting.

People are no more idiots for having others look after their savings than having a mechanic look after their car or a doctor look after their health. Some people are better mechanics or know their health better, but most people don't.

Having spent 20 years in the financial industry - mostly in and around pension plans - I absolutely believe people should be forced to save if the goal is for people to have more savings for retirement. Absolutely no question about it. There is a ton of research and empirical evidence for this.

However, if you are so ideologically predisposed to believing that the government should never be involved in your life, that's different. The problem is that ideologues equate their belief system with superior outcomes, despite the empirical evidence. In the case of retirement savings, the ideologues are wrong. The government should compel people to save if the goal is to have more retirement savings. The issue then becomes the design of the retirement system

I think SS is a very poor system. SS should be run as a defined contribution plan that is widely diversified like a few other national pension plans. And people should have the option to opt out of SS if they wish but still be forced to put money away to invest in something else.

Which is the next disagreement here. Taxes were collected that are BOUND to the benefit of the SS program. They were diverted into the General Fund. This is because you can't trust politicians with a "Trust Fund" .. The fact that they were overcharging (mostly blue collar and struggling workers) and then redirecting that money without ANY BENEFIT TO THE FUND --- is a crime.

THEN--- they create an accounting based of "full faith and credit" that those SAME TAXPAYERS or their children would be encumbered with FUTURE debt instruments loaded with that SAME PRINCIPLE and the fictiticious interest. So now -- taxpayers are coughing up the equivalent of the 1st Stolen with Interest.

Doesn't matter whether the interest exists or doesn't exist -- because the Treasury is "obligated" to issue NEW debt (on the backs of taxpayers) for each and every year that the "fund" runs an income deficit.

Those NEW debt instruments are the 2nd THEFT because for every deficit dollar paid in that year -- taxpayers have now coughed up $2 plus phoney interest plus the interest on the NEW debt instrument.

Your understanding of SS isn't correct. The economics of SS is no different than a government bond mutual fund.

I get that it is confusing. When I first started looking at SS and how it worked, I was confused too.

An explanation for how SS works can be in found in the following thread.

Social Security Discussion

I'm WAAAY past confused by SS. I KNOW how it works. I don't go out on limbs on stuff I don't know..
WAAAY past confused and onto RAGE and ANGER...

Then you need to explain the errors in ANYTHING specific that I layed out pertaining to the fraud and the theft.
Your link extends the fantasy of a Trust Fund earning interest. But when you read the SSA Prospectus -- you'll find the admission that there is NOTHING OF VALUE (including the phoney interest) in there.. Go refute my math and analysis for the cost of $1 coming out of the Trust Fund ($2 plus phoney interest plus NEW interest..)

It's in post #127 -- Tell me why that FRAUD I laid out is really a sound and well managed deal for the taxpayers.

 

[flacaltenn]

[

How social security works is government lies to you and tells you that you're saving for your retirement and they spend your money as it comes in like they do all other taxes. ..

See, this is the root of the idiocy. The government does not do that. SS is a Trust Fund.

Please figure out what a Trust Fund is before you further make a fool of yourself.

Who owns this imaginary "Trust Fund"?

Who owns any Trust Fund? The people who are eligible currently or in the future to be paid benefits.

The money invested by the Trust Fund is no different than the money your money market fund invests in US Treasuries. If SS money is imaginary, then all the money that every US bond bill or other security represents is imaginary.

There is NOTHING of value in the Trust Fund. It costs $2 dollars + the phoney interest + the interest on NEW DEBT --- to pay a $1 shortfall in SS income. It's YOU the taxpayer that PAYS for the "money" coming out of the Trust Fund. What part of that don't you understand? When the Treasury issues NEW BONDS to cover the SS "Trust Fund" liabilities -- it's the TAXPAYERS --- not Santa Clause -- not investments --- that are saddled with that NEW debt..

 

[flacaltenn]

[

How social security works is government lies to you and tells you that you're saving for your retirement and they spend your money as it comes in like they do all other taxes. ..

See, this is the root of the idiocy. The government does not do that. SS is a Trust Fund.

Please figure out what a Trust Fund is before you further make a fool of yourself.

Please tell me why you think ISSUING NEW DEBT on the backs of taxpayers is an "ASSET" from the Trust Fund??

 

[kaz]

[

How social security works is government lies to you and tells you that you're saving for your retirement and they spend your money as it comes in like they do all other taxes. ..

See, this is the root of the idiocy. The government does not do that. SS is a Trust Fund.

Please figure out what a Trust Fund is before you further make a fool of yourself.

Who owns this imaginary "Trust Fund"?

The oompa loompas?

 

[kaz]

[

How social security works is government lies to you and tells you that you're saving for your retirement and they spend your money as it comes in like they do all other taxes. ..

See, this is the root of the idiocy. The government does not do that. SS is a Trust Fund.

Please figure out what a Trust Fund is before you further make a fool of yourself.

Who owns this imaginary "Trust Fund"?

Who owns any Trust Fund? The people who are eligible currently or in the future to be paid benefits.

The money invested by the Trust Fund is no different than the money your money market fund invests in US Treasuries. If SS money is imaginary, then all the money that every US bond bill or other security represents is imaginary.

So what exactly do I "OWN"?

Can I call in an order to liquidate the treasuries and invest the proceeds in Berkshire Hathaway?

You own your share of a welfare program that ill be paid by your children, and mine

 

[kaz]

[

How social security works is government lies to you and tells you that you're saving for your retirement and they spend your money as it comes in like they do all other taxes. ..

See, this is the root of the idiocy. The government does not do that. SS is a Trust Fund.

Please figure out what a Trust Fund is before you further make a fool of yourself.

Your ban is now permanent. Have a nice life

 

[leftwinger]

I am so confused. Each paycheck they take 15% or so? They hand out SSI SSDI payments to those who have already paid in but now retired. Any extra income they use for other "stuff", since 1984?

Now the SSI SSDI income is almost less than the outgo? They will sell bonds or borrow to pay this diff? Or they will have to adjust the "income" or gasp! the "outgo'.

But if they had kept their greedy hands off the income (saved it) we would be great surplus!

One final that kills me: Urban rumor has it that many who never paid any SSI are paid SSI? Illegal immigrants for one? Truth? who gets paid?

 

[Fishlore]

Social Security is socialism -- no doubt about it -- and America loves it. Medicare is the son of Social Security, and America loves it. These programs inspire wild hostility from the right because righties correctly see them as the nose of the camel under the tent.

Going back to the founding of Social Security under FDR, Democrats have done a lot of tap dancing to avoid having to state the obvious: that the "Social" in Social Security is socialism. What SS secures is society. It does this by guaranteeing a minimum standard of living for people who can no longer earn.

Social Security is not an investment. It is not a retirement policy. It is a tax supported inter-generational social contract to maintain social stability. Stupid Republicans criticize Social Security for failing to do something it isn't attempting to do. Nobody cares about the quibble until some idiotic GOP politician suggests abandoning Social Security. Then, BOOM! the roof falls in on the Republicans and they go back to bellyaching about something else.

 

[Toro]

[

How social security works is government lies to you and tells you that you're saving for your retirement and they spend your money as it comes in like they do all other taxes. ..

See, this is the root of the idiocy. The government does not do that. SS is a Trust Fund.

Please figure out what a Trust Fund is before you further make a fool of yourself.

Please tell me why you think ISSUING NEW DEBT on the backs of taxpayers is an "ASSET" from the Trust Fund??

He's correct.

It is an asset for the SS trust fund owed to it by the Treasury. The Treasury then registers a credit owed to the SS trust.

 

[flacaltenn]

I am so confused. Each paycheck they take 15% or so? They hand out SSI SSDI payments to those who have already paid in but now retired. Any extra income they use for other "stuff", since 1984?

Now the SSI SSDI income is almost less than the outgo? They will sell bonds or borrow to pay this diff? Or they will have to adjust the "income" or gasp! the "outgo'.

But if they had kept their greedy hands off the income (saved it) we would be great surplus!

One final that kills me: Urban rumor has it that many who never paid any SSI are paid SSI? Illegal immigrants for one? Truth? who gets paid?

Until the American people grasp the immense nature of this mismanagement --- there should be no discussion about "fixing it". Politicians from BOTH sides want cover from their misdeeds with this SS Fund.

Things like increasing the age of eligibility sound thoughtful and reasonable if the people don't know how much money has been squandered and wasted (actually stolen).. And rather than seeing a 64 yr old roofer or landscaper with a bad back FORCED to work another 3 to 6 yrs to sacrifice "for the good of SS" --- I want to see the politicians held accountable for this fraud. So that WE can determine how to fix it..

 

[Toro]

There is NOTHING of value in the Trust Fund.

Wrong.

The value of the SS trusts are what is owed to it by the Treasury.

 

[Toro]

I'm WAAAY past confused by SS.

That is apparent. And understandable.

I KNOW how it works.

No you do not.

 

[kaz]

[

How social security works is government lies to you and tells you that you're saving for your retirement and they spend your money as it comes in like they do all other taxes. ..

See, this is the root of the idiocy. The government does not do that. SS is a Trust Fund.

Please figure out what a Trust Fund is before you further make a fool of yourself.

Please tell me why you think ISSUING NEW DEBT on the backs of taxpayers is an "ASSET" from the Trust Fund??

He's correct.

It is an asset for the SS trust fund owed to it by the Treasury. The Treasury then registers a credit owed to the SS trust.

which are both part of the general fund. You loan yourself money, and bam, it's an asset?

I'm a millionaire. I have like $10 million. I also have $10 million in debt, I loaned myself money. No wait, I'm a BILLIONAIRE. Yeah, that's the ticket....

where did you study finance? The Brooklyn school for the mentally impaired?

 

[kaz]

I'm WAAAY past confused by SS.

That is apparent. And understandable.

I KNOW how it works.

No you do not.

You know nothing about finance thinking you can loan yourself money and declare it an asset.

You may want to google the General Fund and learn something about finance since you claim to work in finance

 

[flacaltenn]

[

How social security works is government lies to you and tells you that you're saving for your retirement and they spend your money as it comes in like they do all other taxes. ..

See, this is the root of the idiocy. The government does not do that. SS is a Trust Fund.

Please figure out what a Trust Fund is before you further make a fool of yourself.

Please tell me why you think ISSUING NEW DEBT on the backs of taxpayers is an "ASSET" from the Trust Fund??

He's correct.

It is an asset for the SS trust fund owed to it by the Treasury. The Treasury then registers a credit owed to the SS trust.

Nope.. The surplus was an ASSET to the General Fund. Because it was stolen. The Treasury doesn't just register "a credit to SS" --- They issue NEW DEBT and then allow SS the ability to draw on based on that NEW debt. They SPENT the same $1 twice on the backs of the taxpayer.

 

[Toro]

which are both part of the general fund. You loan yourself money, and bam, it's an asset?

I'm a millionaire. I have like $10 million. I also have $10 million in debt, I loaned myself money. No wait, I'm a BILLIONAIRE. Yeah, that's the ticket....

where did you study finance? The Brooklyn school for the mentally impaired?

The University of Toronto. It's a better university than the University of Michigan, apparently.

The Trusts are separate from the Treasury. The assets in the Trusts are claims on the economic activity of the United States. It's no different than the claims of Treasury securities, which are also unsecured claims on economic activity of the United States.

 

[kaz]

which are both part of the general fund. You loan yourself money, and bam, it's an asset?

I'm a millionaire. I have like $10 million. I also have $10 million in debt, I loaned myself money. No wait, I'm a BILLIONAIRE. Yeah, that's the ticket....

where did you study finance? The Brooklyn school for the mentally impaired?

The University of Toronto. It's a better university than the University of Michigan, apparently.

The Trusts are separate from the Treasury. The assets in the Treasury are claims on the economic activity of the United States. It's no different than the claims of Treasury securities, which are also unsecured claims on economic activity of the United States.

So in the University of toronto you think that loaning yourself money is an asset, and that makes it "better?" this must be some use of the word "better" I hadn't heard before...

And whether or not you have a reliable income, loaning YOURSELF money is not an asset anywhere to anyone