The Recovery Thread

I may have written this earlier but I am going to post this here.

We live in an asset-driven economy.

The typical economic cycle during the post-WWII period followed a certain playbook. When demand started to accelerate and capacity tightened, inflation would rise, as there is a response-lag between accelerating demand and additions to supply capacity. In response to accelerating inflation, the Fed would increase interest rates, causing a decrease in demand for credit and thus for goods. Because supply growth lags demand, supply would build as demand was decelerating. Inventories would build up as demand slowed, and companies would cut back production, laying off workers. Economic activity would contract and the economy would enter a recession. In response, the Fed would cut interest rates, and the cost of credit would fall, making it cheaper for companies to finance capital projects. Excess inventories would be cleared away, economic growth would resume, and laid off employees would be called back to work. This is the inventory/credit cycle, and it best represented the dynamics of the economy from 1945 through 1998 (though some might say it ended in 1987, not 1998).

The inventory/credit cycle is still in force today, of course. However, since 1998 (or 1987), the asset-driven economy has become far more important.

In 1998, the Federal Reserve organized the rescue of Long-Term Capital Management, a highly-leveraged hedge fund that speculated primarily in fixed income products. In addition, the Fed cut interest rates three times in six weeks, igniting the final stages of the Tech Bubble. The Nasdaq went up 87% from the bottom on October 8, 1998 to the near-term top on February 1, 1999. The Naz consolidated into the summer before doubling into March 2000, signaling the top of the Tech Bubble.

I mark 1998 as the end of the post-war period, but one could also mark October 1987 when Greenspan slashed interest rates in response to the stock market crash. That was the beginning of the Greenspan Put, whereby the Federal Reserve would bail out asset markets when they were under extreme duress. However, 1998 marked the beginning of the systemic excesses of the asset-driven economy, beginning with the Tech Bubble. For the past 12 years, unlike any time in history, the Federal Reserve has been targeting and responding to rolling asset bubbles, of which it is a prime culprit for creating. This is the era of the asset-driven economy.

Not just the Fed, mind you. Though there was no fiscal response to the collapse of LTCM, the 2001-02 fiscal response by the government and the monetary response by Federal Reserve to counter-act the asset-driven recession caused by the collapse of the Tech Bubble was the biggest stimulus ever up to that time.

As we all know, the Tech Bubble begat the Housing Bubble. Cheap money fueled an orgy of real estate speculation unlike anything seen before, easily surpassing the Tech Bubble, with far more widespread affects to the economy.

Unsurprisingly to anyone with an understanding of valuation and history, the Housing Bubble collapsed. In response to the even bigger economic fallout of the even bigger collapse of the even bigger housing bubble, the government responded with an even bigger stimulus package. Jim Grant of Grant’s Interest Rate Observer estimates that the current stimulus is 10x larger than the average stimulus relative to GDP since WWII, dwarfing the stimulus following Tech Bubble collapse, which Grant estimates was 4x bigger than the post-war average.​
 
I may have written this earlier but I am going to post this here.

We live in an asset-driven economy.

...
Unsurprisingly to anyone with an understanding of valuation and history, the Housing Bubble collapsed. In response to the even bigger economic fallout of the even bigger collapse of the even bigger housing bubble, the government responded with an even bigger stimulus package. Jim Grant of Grant’s Interest Rate Observer estimates that the current stimulus is 10x larger than the average stimulus relative to GDP since WWII, dwarfing the stimulus following Tech Bubble collapse, which Grant estimates was 4x bigger than the post-war average.​

What you have reposted is true. The simple fact of the matter is that is does not matter. I said when I came to this board, I post to make people think. I know it is hard for some and they rebel at the notion of thinking, but it can be fun and productive.

The question I ask you is obvious. Why does it not matter?
 
i dont think that's how businesses think about tax, fox.

Well, running a small business myself and being in a business in which I constantly deal with payroll, hiring, firing, expenses, and business activities of other small businesses, I can assure you from up close and personal experience that business DOES thnk like that. And I would trust CATO to do a competent analysis of the cause and effect of various government policy, including tax policy, more than I trust any other group to do that. They have no dog in the fight, they are not ideologically grounded in any political party, and they lean on very good people to compile the information that they use.

If I needed no other reference for CATO's competence and impartiality, it would be that they piss off the Left and Right equally. :)

You are correct that hiring and firing has to do with demand, but there is also a human component that many employers look on their employees as family and layoffs are an absolute last resort. Then from a practical standpoint, a good businessman does not want to lose good people if there is any chance that he will need them in the foreseeable future. So business outlook and prognosis is a strong factor in business decisions related to hiring, firing, expansion, investment, and every other aspect of business. And tax policy is a huge factor in all that.

every business is different, in fact, every employee is different. for my little firm, under the antagon management system, i have the benefit of being the only overhead burden. and that's only when i'm debating on here during business hours :). burdens play bigger roles with overheads, but that's borne by customers and salaries just as much as owners. the math is not there for me, that even a huge 10-15% reduction in burdens will make/break a hiring decision.

that you trust cato over any other source precludes you from being a realist, full stop ;).

i'd say that cato's conclusions are framed around the principles of free markets and liberty, and while the united states is the progenitor of these principles in practice, these are not the only pillars of american economics, and never, ever have been. championing just these and arguing only these principles will see through our great economy and society is what alienates them from comprehensive consideration by the american right and left. i agree with america on that one. some of what cato contends is plausible, however, i'd advise that a diet of cato economics without a grip on american economics is like a diet of A-1 with no steak. we don't cook the best steak in the business from dumb luck, notwithstanding the criticisms from cato and the contrarian gallery.
 
i'm not sure i buy the characterization of 'asset-based economy', toro. i would assert that we've revealed that it is a credit-based economy with respect to assets in the recent crisis and a knowledge-based economy in the dot-com boom. both of these were acute observations, which were invested in as if entrenched, leading to the booms we'd seen. without the knowledge and credit co-factors, can it really be said we've weened the economy from human input bases like services?

the antagon characterization is a neo-socialist commercial economy. how many real assets are owned, de-facto, by the state?
 
I may have written this earlier but I am going to post this here.

We live in an asset-driven economy.

...
Unsurprisingly to anyone with an understanding of valuation and history, the Housing Bubble collapsed. In response to the even bigger economic fallout of the even bigger collapse of the even bigger housing bubble, the government responded with an even bigger stimulus package. Jim Grant of Grant’s Interest Rate Observer estimates that the current stimulus is 10x larger than the average stimulus relative to GDP since WWII, dwarfing the stimulus following Tech Bubble collapse, which Grant estimates was 4x bigger than the post-war average.​

What you have reposted is true. The simple fact of the matter is that is does not matter. I said when I came to this board, I post to make people think. I know it is hard for some and they rebel at the notion of thinking, but it can be fun and productive.

The question I ask you is obvious. Why does it not matter?

It matters because it distorts resource allocation within the economy with disastrous results.

I do not believe that our leaders understand this and are likely to keep making the same mistakes over and over again.
 
i dont think that's how businesses think about tax, fox.

Well, running a small business myself and being in a business in which I constantly deal with payroll, hiring, firing, expenses, and business activities of other small businesses, I can assure you from up close and personal experience that business DOES thnk like that. And I would trust CATO to do a competent analysis of the cause and effect of various government policy, including tax policy, more than I trust any other group to do that. They have no dog in the fight, they are not ideologically grounded in any political party, and they lean on very good people to compile the information that they use.

If I needed no other reference for CATO's competence and impartiality, it would be that they piss off the Left and Right equally. :)

You are correct that hiring and firing has to do with demand, but there is also a human component that many employers look on their employees as family and layoffs are an absolute last resort. Then from a practical standpoint, a good businessman does not want to lose good people if there is any chance that he will need them in the foreseeable future. So business outlook and prognosis is a strong factor in business decisions related to hiring, firing, expansion, investment, and every other aspect of business. And tax policy is a huge factor in all that.

every business is different, in fact, every employee is different. for my little firm, under the antagon management system, i have the benefit of being the only overhead burden. and that's only when i'm debating on here during business hours :). burdens play bigger roles with overheads, but that's borne by customers and salaries just as much as owners. the math is not there for me, that even a huge 10-15% reduction in burdens will make/break a hiring decision.

that you trust cato over any other source precludes you from being a realist, full stop ;).

i'd say that cato's conclusions are framed around the principles of free markets and liberty, and while the united states is the progenitor of these principles in practice, these are not the only pillars of american economics, and never, ever have been. championing just these and arguing only these principles will see through our great economy and society is what alienates them from comprehensive consideration by the american right and left. i agree with america on that one. some of what cato contends is plausible, however, i'd advise that a diet of cato economics without a grip on american economics is like a diet of A-1 with no steak. we don't cook the best steak in the business from dumb luck, notwithstanding the criticisms from cato and the contrarian gallery.

Perhaps you can name a credible source that you would trust more than CATO then? You seem to hold them in contempt as a competent source, but have not expressed any reason for doing so other than a suggestion that there are better economic principles than free markets and liberty? I agree that free markets and liberty are not the only pillars of American economics, even if I should agree that such is all CATO offers which it isn't, but that does not necessarily mean the other pillars are superior or as successful. At least you have not made that case. And I'll tell you up front that you'll have a tough time making that case with me as I think I am at least somewhat briefed on most major economic philosophies being promoted out there.
 
no, no. i'm not against ol' freedom, and cato doesnt have a monopoly on liberty. cato criticizes many american policies which have gone a great distance to establish superiority to any other policy package on the planet. the cato, miniature government model does not have a foothold to subtantiate success, despite their criticisms. like i said in my post on the topic, i agree with america, cato does not.
 
Companies are starting to say that business is slowing. However, here is one that is still doing well.

FedEx Corp. said the economic recovery is building, citing businesses restocking inventories, growing shipments from Asia and no signs of a downturn in Europe.

"We expect stronger demand for our services," Fred Smith, the shipping giant's chief executive, said Wednesday as the company reported it swung to a profit for its fiscal fourth quarter.

The Memphis, Tenn.-based package-delivery company is a bellwether for economic activity. It said shipments from Asia rose 41% and its U.S. ground delivery volumes rose 7% in the quarter ended May 31.

Mr. Smith said he expects inventory restocking to continue as FedEx forecast global gross domestic product will grow 3.1% in its current fiscal year ending May 2011. The U.S. economy is expected to grow 3.2% over the same period, with domestic industrial production up 5% or more—growth rates that will help spur demand for shipping.

Air-freight carriers such as FedEx have been pulling planes from desert storage to meet the demand for time-sensitive shipments from manufacturers of components and from consumer electronics suppliers.

"We have a lot of confidence [and] we feel a lot better about our business," said Chief Financial Officer Alan Graf Jr.

FedEx Swings to Profit - WSJ.com
 
Contrary to the narrative most of you right wing cranks like to tell yourselves, the LEFT isn't much enamored with Obama's proformance to date.

The reason you guys are so confused is because you think that OBAMA is a leftist.

He's not.

No DNC democratic is remotely leftist.

The leaders in the Dem party that you all love to hate are just the other squad of team of insiders who are screwing this nation.
 
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in light of that, editec, the left has been increasingly displaced from the DNC, making it more and more inviting to normal folks. in turn, normal folks have been increasingly displaced by right-wing cranks in the GOP.
 
I may have written this earlier but I am going to post this here.

We live in an asset-driven economy.

...
Unsurprisingly to anyone with an understanding of valuation and history, the Housing Bubble collapsed. In response to the even bigger economic fallout of the even bigger collapse of the even bigger housing bubble, the government responded with an even bigger stimulus package. Jim Grant of Grant’s Interest Rate Observer estimates that the current stimulus is 10x larger than the average stimulus relative to GDP since WWII, dwarfing the stimulus following Tech Bubble collapse, which Grant estimates was 4x bigger than the post-war average.​

What you have reposted is true. The simple fact of the matter is that is does not matter. I said when I came to this board, I post to make people think. I know it is hard for some and they rebel at the notion of thinking, but it can be fun and productive.

The question I ask you is obvious. Why does it not matter?

It matters because it distorts resource allocation within the economy with disastrous results.

I do not believe that our leaders understand this and are likely to keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

i guess this is my point: that resource allocation (and i won't preclude the private sector as you have) is biased toward the perception that we have an asset based economy - a perception i claim is fallacious, as demonstrated by the 'disastrous results' to which you've referred.
 
Contrary to the narrative most of you right wing cranks like to tell yourselves, the LEFT isn't much enamored with Obama's proformance to date.

The reason you guys are so confused is because you think that OBAMA is a leftist.

He's not.

No DNC democratic is remotely leftist.

The leaders in the Dem party that you all love to hate are just the other squad of team of insiders who are screwing this nation.

So all those talking head leftists like Matthews and that dyke Maddow were just kidding when they said good things about Obama?
 
What you have reposted is true. The simple fact of the matter is that is does not matter. I said when I came to this board, I post to make people think. I know it is hard for some and they rebel at the notion of thinking, but it can be fun and productive.

The question I ask you is obvious. Why does it not matter?

It matters because it distorts resource allocation within the economy with disastrous results.

I do not believe that our leaders understand this and are likely to keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

i guess this is my point: that resource allocation (and i won't preclude the private sector as you have) is biased toward the perception that we have an asset based economy - a perception i claim is fallacious, as demonstrated by the 'disastrous results' to which you've referred.

So, I guess the two of you do not see money (electronic or otherwise) as just a tool to help stabilize an unstable economy? Every time the US government (Treasury) issues Bonds and Notes it is making money (as debt) to try to keep things under control. Sadly, we have witnessed the worst use of this money generation in the history of the United States in the past two years. We can only hope the FED will save our silly arses again, as they have done so many times in the past. The alternative, of course, is anarchy.
 
It matters because it distorts resource allocation within the economy with disastrous results.

I do not believe that our leaders understand this and are likely to keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

i guess this is my point: that resource allocation (and i won't preclude the private sector as you have) is biased toward the perception that we have an asset based economy - a perception i claim is fallacious, as demonstrated by the 'disastrous results' to which you've referred.

So, I guess the two of you do not see money (electronic or otherwise) as just a tool to help stabilize an unstable economy? Every time the US government (Treasury) issues Bonds and Notes it is making money (as debt) to try to keep things under control. Sadly, we have witnessed the worst use of this money generation in the history of the United States in the past two years. We can only hope the FED will save our silly arses again, as they have done so many times in the past. The alternative, of course, is anarchy.

i'm not sure how you'd conclude that from what either of us has argued, but i would contend that hardly every time tthe government borrows, that it is intended or functions to smooth out the economy. earlier i said public and private credit have kept our economy running more smoothly and were behind the ostensible asset basis which toro proclaimed, but with the war effort funded at bond auctions, along with general fiscal surpluses, i couldn't say that all public borrowing functions to stabilize.
 
The sluggish U.S. jobs recovery is inching beyond the industrial South and Midwest, and is spreading toward the service-heavy economies of the two coasts, in a sign of hope for a labor force hit by the worst recession in generations.

New Labor Department data, released Friday, showed that the decline in unemployment was widespread: The jobless rate fell last month from April in 37 states, plus the District of Columbia.

"The recovery has spread out," said Steven Cochrane, an economist at Moody's Analytics.

The U.S. has added nearly a million jobs since the trough of the recession in December 2009, including some temporary Census Bureau jobs that will soon disappear. The gains have been uneven. States with big manufacturing and natural-resource sectors like Texas and Indiana have enjoyed steady growth, while states like Nevada, where the housing bust was especially dire, have lagged badly. ...

The nation still faces a long slog back to pre-recession employment levels. Only 12 states and the District of Columbia had more jobs in May than they did a year ago.

But there were also signs that the job recovery was spreading beyond its roots in manufacturing to sectors including shipping and trade, which benefit more parts of the country. One bit of evidence that the job market, though still weak, has bottomed out: No state showed a statistically significant decrease in employment over the month.

Indiana has seen the largest percentage increase in jobs through the year, rising 1.9% on a surge in manufacturing jobs. Illinois, Pennsylvania and Minnesota—all big in manufacturing—were among the top 20 states in terms of job gains, each with job increases of 1.2% or greater. ...

The pickup in manufacturing, which was quickly followed by growth in shipping industries and trade, has also led to stronger job growth in the South. Texas added 43,600 jobs last month, more than any state. South Carolina and Tennessee both saw a 0.6% gain in employment last month, among the highest in the nation.

As the recovery gains steam, it is starting to spread to the service sector, which accounts for 70% of the nation's jobs and is broadly distributed through the states. Kentucky continued to shed jobs through the early part of this year, but companies have recently resumed hiring, with the state adding jobs each of the past three months. ...

Improvements in the nation's huge service sector helped add jobs in coastal states with large cities, where the sector tends to be bigger. Massachusetts and Washington state saw jobs grow 1.4% and 1.3%, respectively.

More States See Job Growth - WSJ.com
 
Contrary to the narrative most of you right wing cranks like to tell yourselves, the LEFT isn't much enamored with Obama's proformance to date.

The reason you guys are so confused is because you think that OBAMA is a leftist.

He's not.

No DNC democratic is remotely leftist.

The leaders in the Dem party that you all love to hate are just the other squad of team of insiders who are screwing this nation.

So all those talking head leftists like Matthews and that dyke Maddow were just kidding when they said good things about Obama?

Not necessarily "kidding", per se, but definitely fulfilling their roles.

The question is, why should we really accept anything we see on TV? I don't trust anyone that isn't immediate family or a life-long friend. So I certainly don't trust any talking heads.
 
Contrary to the narrative most of you right wing cranks like to tell yourselves, the LEFT isn't much enamored with Obama's proformance to date.

The reason you guys are so confused is because you think that OBAMA is a leftist.

He's not.

No DNC democratic is remotely leftist.

The leaders in the Dem party that you all love to hate are just the other squad of team of insiders who are screwing this nation.

So all those talking head leftists like Matthews and that dyke Maddow were just kidding when they said good things about Obama?

Nobody who wanted Obama wanted to know anything bad about him. The kool-ade drinkers still don't. I don't know if Matthews and Maddow are kool-ade drinikers, but if they are not, even numbnuts are capable of finally seeing the light and changing their mind. Look how many people started out with high hopes for George W. Bush and how many of those folks eventually turned on him.

However, for our friend to say that Obama is not a Leftist or no DNC Democrat is a Leftist is an unbelieveable display of ignorance of the term Leftist.
 
Okay, you might be wondering, but what about the United States?

Well, for all the worries about a “double-dip” here, business seems to be humming along too.

Not screaming, but humming.

The aforementioned Robert Half pointed out that the temporary help market has been on fire, with 300,000 people placed in the first six months of the recovery. “And that slope is steeper than it’s ever been….The best on record.”

That’s right: “the best on record.”

When, exactly, do those “temps” become “perms”? That’s a question the Robert Half guys could not answer, but for now, the pace of the business recovery seems no different than most recoveries.

Indeed, one large home furnishings retailer we visited at the conference on the same day Best Buy upset Wall Street’s Finest with news that their customers seem to be consuming less—and why shouldn’t they be, since half the stuff Best Buy sells can be downloaded directly to your iPad, while the iPad itself makes Best Buy’s computer department obsolete?—has seen no change at all in their customers’ buying habits.

And we heard the same from restaurant chains, a cruise line and, most interestingly of all, every transportation company in the house.

As one such CEO said, “In March and April the recovery continued, and in May and June we’ve seen the normal seasonal build from there.” Asked about the economy as a whole—and this is a guy whose trucks move product all around the United States—he summed it up this way:

“Feels like a normal recovery to us.”

Jeff Matthews Is Not Making This Up: “Feels Like a Normal Recovery to Us”
 
Temp help is "humming" because no one wants to hire anyone permanently since they cannot calculate the cost of unemployment anymore.
This "recovery" will be nasty brutish and short. Job creation is unbelievably low and there are no figures out there to suggest improvement.
 
Contrary to the narrative most of you right wing cranks like to tell yourselves, the LEFT isn't much enamored with Obama's proformance to date.

The reason you guys are so confused is because you think that OBAMA is a leftist.

He's not.

No DNC democratic is remotely leftist.

The leaders in the Dem party that you all love to hate are just the other squad of team of insiders who are screwing this nation.

So all those talking head leftists like Matthews and that dyke Maddow were just kidding when they said good things about Obama?

Nobody who wanted Obama wanted to know anything bad about him. The kool-ade drinkers still don't. I don't know if Matthews and Maddow are kool-ade drinikers, but if they are not, even numbnuts are capable of finally seeing the light and changing their mind. Look how many people started out with high hopes for George W. Bush and how many of those folks eventually turned on him.

However, for our friend to say that Obama is not a Leftist or no DNC Democrat is a Leftist is an unbelieveable display of ignorance of the term Leftist.

keep telling yourself that...fyrefox....

but the bottom line is that the majority of this country had gone through 8 years of complete HELL with the republicans and bush running the show and they wanted CHANGE from the Republicans.....and mccain/palin were republicans and Bush lite....democrats were slotted to win, no matter who was in the spot running because the republicans and Bush were absolutely irresponsible and just plain terrible.

i'm not saying some were not mesmerized by obama like the youth vote, but most just DID NOT want another lousy, republican rule imo. nor did they believe the repubs deserved to be rewarded for their crappy leadership with another chance at it.
 

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