The Right To Bear Arms


So first there was a shooting which means it was in a minority of defenses. Second he is in trouble not for defending but because his gun was not licensed. So he was not law abiding and also in most of the country you don't need to have a gun licensed.


Brain...really....the guy was going through the permit process....that anti gunners made unreasonable...and you want to claim he is a career criminal engaged in criminal business which would justify your claim that most gun defenses are by criminals.....

The guy wasn't killed....I don't think...so it wouldn't even count in the NCVS study.....
 
shut up fool-people who want to infringe on our rights mainly because they want to make things safer for criminals ar TURDS

Not to mention, the particular poster is completely dishonest with just about everything and trying to twist facts to fit his agenda. No way is that going to happen while I'm watching! :D

gun banners are either ignorant/stupid morons or dishonest assholes
AKA people with common sense so the gun nuts will hate them...

No, they are stupid people with absolutely no common sense who want to live like sheep. If you let the government mess with just ONE right, there is absolutely nothing to stop them from meddling with others. Nothing at all, because you have now set a precedence. That is why some of us are so bothered by this nonsense! It is like an attack on our freedom.

Do you notice how the left think there can be no restrictions at all on abortions because government can't be trusted to be reasonable and one restriction will lead to banning abortion, but when it comes to guns, we have to be reasonable and accept restrictions?

Yes I do. I am really against the banning of most things, TBH. Individual liberty and freedom! :)

Another point in this discussion that seems to be ignored is that when a person is confronted by an attacker, there is not time to wait for the police to come and save your arse. So what do people like brainless expect crime victims to do? Hope for the best?
 

So first there was a shooting which means it was in a minority of defenses. Second he is in trouble not for defending but because his gun was not licensed. So he was not law abiding and also in most of the country you don't need to have a gun licensed.


Brain...really....the guy was going through the permit process....that anti gunners made unreasonable...and you want to claim he is a career criminal engaged in criminal business which would justify your claim that most gun defenses are by criminals.....

The guy wasn't killed....I don't think...so it wouldn't even count in the NCVS study.....

This is because he is dishonest. He will try to twist the data to fit his agenda of disarming honest citizens so that we are at the mercy of criminals and the government, basically pawns.
 

So first there was a shooting which means it was in a minority of defenses. Second he is in trouble not for defending but because his gun was not licensed. So he was not law abiding and also in most of the country you don't need to have a gun licensed. So this is a very rare case.


Here you go Brain.....a legal opinion...this sort of legal gymnastics governing self defense...in your own home....shows Kleck is accurate......


If someone has invaded your home, and you fear great bodily harm or death, then yes -- the law will generally protect you if you shoot. Outside of those very specific circumstances, the question is a bit too complicated to provide a cut and dried answer.

Really.....too complicated for a lawyer to give an easy answer...now imagine you are the homeowner who just shot at or shot a criminal in your home.....

Self Defense
The law gives everyone the right to defend themselves with a reasonable response. Self-defense is an affirmative defense to a charged violent crime. This means if someone is charged with murder, or assault, they can use self-defense as a legal excuse for the conduct if they can prove it in a court of law.

Any force used against an intruder must usually be proportionate to harm that is reasonably perceived. For example, if a burglar were to enter your bedroom with a yellow banana as a weapon, you would not be justified in shooting them with a 20 gauge shotgun. However, if they were carrying a fake pistol, and you reasonably believed it to be real, you would likely be justified in shooting that intruder.

So...in the middle of the night....in your own home.....you have to make a snap decision when you confront a menacing stranger in your home......and know the exact legal consequences of that decision when you make it.......really?

If you act with a disproportionate response, or believe that banana to be a futuristic space weapon (an unreasonable perception), this becomes what is referred to as imperfect self-defense. This will mitigate the crime you are charged with and usually result in a lesser punishment, though it will not excuse disproportionate response completely.



May I Shoot an Intruder - FindLaw
 

So first there was a shooting which means it was in a minority of defenses. Second he is in trouble not for defending but because his gun was not licensed. So he was not law abiding and also in most of the country you don't need to have a gun licensed.


Brain...really....the guy was going through the permit process....that anti gunners made unreasonable...and you want to claim he is a career criminal engaged in criminal business which would justify your claim that most gun defenses are by criminals.....

The guy wasn't killed....I don't think...so it wouldn't even count in the NCVS study.....

Still very rare to happen. It's not my claim, it is Klecks.

Again the NCVS survey is 108,000! There are not that many deaths by guns each year and the study states that. Stop looking foolish and claiming they only count deaths. You better go back and read it.
 

So first there was a shooting which means it was in a minority of defenses. Second he is in trouble not for defending but because his gun was not licensed. So he was not law abiding and also in most of the country you don't need to have a gun licensed.


Brain...really....the guy was going through the permit process....that anti gunners made unreasonable...and you want to claim he is a career criminal engaged in criminal business which would justify your claim that most gun defenses are by criminals.....

The guy wasn't killed....I don't think...so it wouldn't even count in the NCVS study.....

Still very rare to happen. It's not my claim, it is Klecks.

Again the NCVS survey is 108,000! There are not that many deaths by guns each year and the study states that. Stop looking foolish and claiming they only count deaths. You better go back and read it.


I didn't claim it, the Cato institute did in their research of the subject.....
 

So first there was a shooting which means it was in a minority of defenses. Second he is in trouble not for defending but because his gun was not licensed. So he was not law abiding and also in most of the country you don't need to have a gun licensed.


Brain...really....the guy was going through the permit process....that anti gunners made unreasonable...and you want to claim he is a career criminal engaged in criminal business which would justify your claim that most gun defenses are by criminals.....

The guy wasn't killed....I don't think...so it wouldn't even count in the NCVS study.....

This is because he is dishonest. He will try to twist the data to fit his agenda of disarming honest citizens so that we are at the mercy of criminals and the government, basically pawns.

No actually Bill is trying to twist it. And so far not doing a good job. And I have not suggested disarming anyone that isn't a criminal. You are being dishonest. Or please post where I have said that.
 

So first there was a shooting which means it was in a minority of defenses. Second he is in trouble not for defending but because his gun was not licensed. So he was not law abiding and also in most of the country you don't need to have a gun licensed.


Brain...really....the guy was going through the permit process....that anti gunners made unreasonable...and you want to claim he is a career criminal engaged in criminal business which would justify your claim that most gun defenses are by criminals.....

The guy wasn't killed....I don't think...so it wouldn't even count in the NCVS study.....

Still very rare to happen. It's not my claim, it is Klecks.

Again the NCVS survey is 108,000! There are not that many deaths by guns each year and the study states that. Stop looking foolish and claiming they only count deaths. You better go back and read it.


I didn't claim it, the Cato institute did in their research of the subject.....

Yes the pro gun right wing cato institute. And I have given you lots of reasons why they are completely wrong in that. So go read it or stop claiming it. The report specifically mentions there are 30k or so gun deaths each year. They estimate 108,000 defenses each year. So sorry the Cato institute is wrong as they are with most things.
 
Again....where the National Crime Victimization Study numbers fall compare with other studies.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409
Hart...1981...1.797,461
Mauser...1990...1,487,342
Gallup...1993...1,621,377
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000



Notice, the 3 different groupings of stats from the research listed so far.....not one of them approaches the NCVS number of 100,000.....yet you claim to know that is the correct number....
 
Again....where the National Crime Victimization Study numbers fall compare with other studies.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....

Field...1976....3,052,717
DMIa 1978...2,141,512
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68
Kleck...2.5 million
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409
Hart...1981...1.797,461
Mauser...1990...1,487,342
Gallup...1993...1,621,377
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..



NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey)....108,000



Notice, the 3 different groupings of stats from the research listed so far.....not one of them approaches the NCVS number of 100,000.....yet you claim to know that is the correct number....

And the NCVS survey is the only one that would weed out criminals defending against criminals. I really don't care how many criminals defend themselves.
 
The Cato study.....they looked at 5000 defensive gun uses culled from news stories from 2003-2011....and they admit that it is a study based on news stories and make no claim beyond that...they do however show why the NCVS study is wrong, and why the FBI stats on homicide are misleading....


http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/WP-Tough-Targets.pdf

On the NCVS study....

Still another problem with the NCVS numbers on defensive gun uses concerns the sequence of the survey questions. The sequence of the questions posed may cause some victims to not report defensive gun uses.

For example, the survey asks, “Have you been the victim of a crime?” If you an- swer, “yes,” you will be asked about defensive gun uses. If you answer, “no,” you will not be asked that question. It is plausible that a respondent who has defended himself or herself with a gun, but was not injured or robbed, will answer, “no,” to the “victim of a crime” question. A respondent who defend- ed someone else with a gun is also unlikely to regard himself as a crime victim. The point here is that there are defensive gun use situ- ations that may not show up in the NCVS.

With regard to the NCVS, researchers have matched up survey respondents with local police reports. This matching effort shows that victims appear to forget—and thus underreport on the NCVS—crimes that they reported to the local police. This problem is most pronounced among Afri- can American and poor victims—and these are the members of our society who are most likely to be victimized.5 This underreporting also means that such victims will not have the chance to answer “yes” to the question about using a gun in self-defense.

At one time it was quite common for gun control advocates to use the very low num- ber of recorded justifiable homicides with guns as evidence that there were very few self- defense shootings. The main problem with that line of reasoning is that it only includes those defensive gun uses where a citizen kills a criminal. It does not tell us anything about instances where the criminal was wounded (but did not die), where the victim held an attacker for police, or where the brandishing of a gun caused the criminal to flee.

Another problem is that the data gath- ered on justifiable homicides employs a very strict definition of what is “justifiable”: where one person kills another person to pre- vent a felony, and the action is lawful.6 That narrow definition does not include excusable homicide. Many states have two categories of excusable homicide. The first category is a homicide “committed by accident and mis-


-----------------
----------------

The NCVS study is the most flawed studies for the purposes of determining defensive gun uses.....

And why the FBI stats on homicides are also innaccurate.....

The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports also significantly overstate murders and understate defensive gun uses. If the police investigate a homicide and ask the district attorney to charge someone with murder or manslaugh- ter, that is reported as a murder or man- slaughter to the Uniform Crime Reports program. But district attorneys will often investigate a case in the weeks afterward, find evidence that the killing was justifiable or excusable homicide, and drop the case en- tirely.

Further, some of those charges are found to be justifiable or excusable homicide by judges and juries during a trial. This is very often the case in spousal abuse situations where a woman defends herself or her chil- dren from an estranged husband.9 A killing initially charged as a murder or nonnegli- gent homicide that is later reclassified as a justifiable or excusable homicide, will not be moved in the Uniform Crime Reports data from the homicide column to the justifiable homicide column.

How do we find out how many such cases exist? In 1989, Time magazine published an article called “Death by Gun.” It included photographs and information about every person killed by a gun in one week in the United States: May 1–7, 1989. There were 464 gun deaths reported in the article. Of these, 216 were suicides, 14 were initially reported as non–law enforcement defensive homicides, 13 were police justifiable homi- cides, and 22 accidents.10 That left 199 mur- ders and manslaughters.

The Time article, like the FBI’s data col- lection, showed the number of defensive gun uses that resulted in a death based on initial reports. A year later, Time followed up on the murder cases, to see how the courts handled them. Instead of 14 self-defense or “justifiable” homicides, there were now 28. This was because 14 of the “crimes” report- ed in “Death by Gun” were now found to be justifiable homicides. At least 43 murder cases had still not gone to trial, and it was possible that some of those would be found “justifiable.”11 Clearly, the FBI’s justifiable homicide data is not particularly meaning- ful for understanding defensive gun uses that result in death—and is useless for un- derstanding the vastly larger number of de- fensive gun uses that do not result in death. Just as clearly, a better data set is needed.
 
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As has been shown countless times, the National Crime Victimization Survey is not credible for determining defensive gun uses....however....it is the only study, the only one, that gives gun grabbers the lowest number of defensive gun uses....and because gun grabbers can never, ever be trusted to tell the truth where guns are concerned...they cling to that study......no matter how wrong it is......
 
As has been shown countless times, the National Crime Victimization Survey is not credible for determining defensive gun uses....however....it is the only study, the only one, that gives gun grabbers the lowest number of defensive gun uses....and because gun grabbers can never, ever be trusted to tell the truth where guns are concerned...they cling to that study......no matter how wrong it is......

It is the only one that weeds out criminals defending against criminals. So the result is much more valuable. And 108k is a pretty big number.
 
US_Revolutionary_War_american_musket_loading.jpg



When will the confusing, poorly worded Second Amendment be updated to reflect modern reality?

When will the left, the liberal, the progressive, etc. educate themselves beyond a second grade level so that they may understand clear, concise, simple sentences?

"...the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed"

It does not say the right of the "militia" it says the right of the people. And it does not say keep and bear "muskets", it says ARMS (as in any weapon - including but not limited to military-grade).

Just because you don't like a law doesn't mean you get to violate it. The beauty of the Constitution is that it can be amended. So go through the proper and legal amendment process and change it Lakhota. Except that, you can't because the American people don't agree with you or your unhinged, radical views. And that pisses you off. Well...sorry my friend.
 
US_Revolutionary_War_american_musket_loading.jpg



When will the confusing, poorly worded Second Amendment be updated to reflect modern reality?

When will the left, the liberal, the progressive, etc. educate themselves beyond a second grade level so that they may understand clear, concise, simple sentences?

"...the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed"

It does not say the right of the "militia" it says the right of the people. And it does not say keep and bear "muskets", it says ARMS (as in any weapon - including but not limited to military-grade).

Just because you don't like a law doesn't mean you get to violate it. The beauty of the Constitution is that it can be amended. So go through the proper and legal amendment process and change it Lakhota. Except that, you can't because the American people don't agree with you or your unhinged, radical views. And that pisses you off. Well...sorry my friend.

Hi Rottweiler
I do not think the law applies to people who intend to commit crimes.

What do you think of this idea:

To form an agreement between parties that the right of the PEOPLE
means LAW ABIDING CITIZENS

The right to bear arms is assumed to be in context with DEFENDING laws NOT VIOLATING THEM.

Can we agree on THAT??? Do you THINK?

Simple: if we require military and police officers to take specific training in PROCEDURES
and an oath to uphold the Constitution, why not offer this same training and oath to all other citizens
who want to SHARE the responsibility for defense and law enforcement (note: officers are not allowed
to use guns for OFFENSE, so the same training and procedures would be agreed upon among citizens)

Can the police and citizens in each district agree to train under the SAME policies?
Would THAT help?
 
Just because some people (criminals) abuse their rights doesn't mean the rest of us should lose any rights. The fact is that criminals are going to be criminals, with or without guns. Look at what Tim McVeigh did. No guns required. If you don't think these sickos will find a way to kill when they are determined to kill a bunch of people, then you are fooling yourself. :rolleyes:
 

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