The Tragedy of Zionism

[MHunterB]

I notice you didn't read my post about the demographics of Israel, Georgie. I think your the one with a reading comprehension problem.

Oh, and I don't think you sourced your original quotes properly... You're still NOT citing primary sources, or 'period' sources. Big hairy deal that it's the Fink's "observations" and not your personal ones: it's still not worth considering.

Incidentally, the Fink's "observations" are not any form of 'documentation'. I happen to have some documentation of my own, in the form of accounts by people who were part of the very earliest kibbutzim - and from some who 'trained' in the US before going to Israel to found kibbutzim. Did you know there was quite a settlement of Jews in New Jersey and elsewhere in the Northeast over a century ago? http://jewishfarmersofamerica.wikispaces.com/History+of+Jewish+Farmers+in+America

 

[MHunterB]

https://www.kshs.org/kansapedia/jewish-farming-communities/12101

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/75488/farmville

Jews and Farming in America | Jewish Women's Archive

A few more links on the topic of Jewish farmers in the US ......

 

[P F Tinmore]

"The Jewish State's timing also seems a little suspect.
The world's tolerance for forced displacement of indigenous populations waned noticeably post Hitler:"

Yeah, sure - Given that only the tiny nation of Denmark did anything of real significance to prevent the deportation and murder of their Jewish citizens, that noble outrage is hilarious..... Not to mention the misrepresentation of any Arab whatsoever as 'indigenous' is similarly obscene: how is it that Muslims and Christians from around the ME are "indigenous" in your eyes, but not the Jews from around the ME????

Over HALF of Israeli Jews are refugees or descendants of same from the ethnic cleansing perpetrated against them by the Arab League nations. Yet the "pro-Palestinian" posters NEVER acknowledge that fact.

The Palestinians had nothing to do with that. It is not their issue.

I have, however, always supported the Jew's right to return. The law does not apply only to Palestinians.

 

[Phoenall]

If what were written in those Jewish religious writings was put in the proper perspective, taking into account God's progressive revelation of God to mankind, that culminates in Jesus, its actually not that objectionable. The way its written reminds me of John 1.

But when it elevates one people as above God, well you see how stealing land from other people can so easily be rationalized.

Such a LIAR as the Bible tells of one who comes after, and the muslims have claimed him as their own. So the story does not end as you say does in sharia, it continues on

 

[Phoenall]

Georgie: What are that blogger's credentials on the topic? All I see is, he's a musician......

Would you go to him to have your car repaired? I don't think so. And he's not any more qualified to KNOW anything about the situation just because he was raised in a 'Jewish' home - unless one imagines some vast conspiracy , LOL!

Those statements about 'Jews in Palestine' not wanting 'immigrants from the bowels of Europe' - what documentation is given for that?

Don't do much reading, do you Marg?

"An Introduction to the Israel
Palestine Conflict (Updated
September 2002)
by
Norman Finkelstein"

"The bowels of Europe" was my observation based on accounts I've read of urban Jews from Europe who found it beneath their "dignity" to work the land as farmers in Palestine.

5. Excerpt 2: ?An Introduction to the Israel Palestine Conflict? | michaellevinmusic | Michael Levin

So you now believe 4th hand accounts of a persons "observations of accounts read" , what was the source of these accounts and if they are in any way ANTI JEW then you must dismiss them as being biased. That is the only way that you will arrive at the truth, 2000 years of hatred is hard to put aside but it can be done

 

[Phoenall]

"The Jewish State's timing also seems a little suspect.
The world's tolerance for forced displacement of indigenous populations waned noticeably post Hitler:"

Yeah, sure - Given that only the tiny nation of Denmark did anything of real significance to prevent the deportation and murder of their Jewish citizens, that noble outrage is hilarious..... Not to mention the misrepresentation of any Arab whatsoever as 'indigenous' is similarly obscene: how is it that Muslims and Christians from around the ME are "indigenous" in your eyes, but not the Jews from around the ME????

Over HALF of Israeli Jews are refugees or descendants of same from the ethnic cleansing perpetrated against them by the Arab League nations. Yet the "pro-Palestinian" posters NEVER acknowledge that fact.

The Palestinians had nothing to do with that. It is not their issue.

I have, however, always supported the Jew's right to return. The law does not apply only to Palestinians.

The HoAP had everything to do with it as it was done in their name by the Islamic nations concerned. If you support the Jews right of return then you would also support their right to a nation and the right to defend that nation from terrorism

 

[georgephillip]

"The Jewish State's timing also seems a little suspect.
The world's tolerance for forced displacement of indigenous populations waned noticeably post Hitler:"

Yeah, sure - Given that only the tiny nation of Denmark did anything of real significance to prevent the deportation and murder of their Jewish citizens, that noble outrage is hilarious..... Not to mention the misrepresentation of any Arab whatsoever as 'indigenous' is similarly obscene: how is it that Muslims and Christians from around the ME are "indigenous" in your eyes, but not the Jews from around the ME????

Over HALF of Israeli Jews are refugees or descendants of same from the ethnic cleansing perpetrated against them by the Arab League nations. Yet the "pro-Palestinian" posters NEVER acknowledge that fact.

The Palestinians had nothing to do with that. It is not their issue.

I have, however, always supported the Jew's right to return. The law does not apply only to Palestinians.

The HoAP had everything to do with it as it was done in their name by the Islamic nations concerned. If you support the Jews right of return then you would also support their right to a nation and the right to defend that nation from terrorism

1.2 million Palestinians in 1948, hostile and otherwise, had 650,000 Jews inflict a Jewish state by force of arms upon their society, driving over 700,000 non-Jews from their homes, businesses, and bank accounts.

That is why an equal number of Jews were purged from neighboring Arab states.

The fault lies with the Zionist Jew and the European bayonets the Jewish state grew up behind.

 

[georgephillip]

Because they read history, perhaps?

The world almost without exception is comprised of nations that were founded on the bloody ground of aboriginal people who were moved, murdered or assimiliated by the nation states that exist, today.

Obviously the WESTERN HEMISPHERE is the best example of that reality.

So the question for Isreal is NOT, is this a moral STATE?

That's a preposterous question because ALL STATES are amoral.

The ONLY question that matters to Zionists is this: How long can Israel exist when a significant population both inside and outside of its borders do NOT support the existence of that state?


History tells us the answer is that a STATE occupation of formerly foreign land can be a long long time ESPECIALLY if the STATE has colonized it with its own people.

Northern Ireland is a pretty good example... it has been occupied by England for nearly 700 years .


OTOH, no EUROPEAN occupation of any land in the fertrile crescent has lasted more than about 200 years.

The Jewish State's timing also seems a little suspect.
The world's tolerance for forced displacement of indigenous populations waned noticeably post Hitler:

"In the
aftermath of the brutal Nazi
experiments with and plans for
demographic engineering,
international public opinion
had ceased granting any
legitimacy to forced population
transfers.

"The landmark Fourth
Geneva Convention, ratified in
1949, for the first time
'unequivocally prohibited
deportation" of civilians under
occupation (Articles 49, 147). (25)'"

5. Excerpt 2: ?An Introduction to the Israel Palestine Conflict? | michaellevinmusic | Michael Levin

There are currently voices in the Knesset calling for expulsion of West Bank and Gaza Arabs into surrounding Muslim states.

There are voices in the Islamic world calling for the expulsion of all Jews in the M.E and not to another Jewish state but into the grave.

How many aircraft carriers do those Islamic voices in your head possess?

 

[georgephillip]

Gobbletygook, George. Mumbo Jumbo.

Arafat the fudgepacker was born in Egypt but claimed he was a Palestinian because he coveted the Israeli P.M's residence. And that is the reason the muslim land thieves want a one sided right of return.

Where did Herzl the land thief come from?

"Theodor Herzl (Hebrew: תִאוַדָר הֶרְצֵל, Ti'vadar Hertzel; Hungarian: Herzl Tivadar; May 2, 1860 – July 3, 1904), born Benjamin Ze’ev Herzl (Hebrew: בִּנְיָמִין זְאֵב הֶרְצֵל, also known in Hebrew as חוֹזֵה הַמְדִינָה, Khozeh HaMedinah, lit. 'Visionary of the State') was a Jewish journalist and writer from Austria-Hungary.

"He is considered to have been the father of modern political Zionism and in effect the founder of the State of Israel."

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Phoenall]

Arafat the fudgepacker was born in Egypt but claimed he was a Palestinian because he coveted the Israeli P.M's residence. And that is the reason the muslim land thieves want a one sided right of return.

Where did Herzl the land thief come from?

"Theodor Herzl (Hebrew: תִאוַדָר הֶרְצֵל, Ti'vadar Hertzel; Hungarian: Herzl Tivadar; May 2, 1860 – July 3, 1904), born Benjamin Ze’ev Herzl (Hebrew: בִּנְיָמִין זְאֵב הֶרְצֵל, also known in Hebrew as חוֹזֵה הַמְדִינָה, Khozeh HaMedinah, lit. 'Visionary of the State') was a Jewish journalist and writer from Austria-Hungary.

"He is considered to have been the father of modern political Zionism and in effect the founder of the State of Israel."

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What land did he steal ?

 

[Hossfly]

Arafat the fudgepacker was born in Egypt but claimed he was a Palestinian because he coveted the Israeli P.M's residence. And that is the reason the muslim land thieves want a one sided right of return.

Where did Herzl the land thief come from?

"Theodor Herzl (Hebrew: תִאוַדָר הֶרְצֵל, Ti'vadar Hertzel; Hungarian: Herzl Tivadar; May 2, 1860 – July 3, 1904), born Benjamin Ze’ev Herzl (Hebrew: בִּנְיָמִין זְאֵב הֶרְצֵל, also known in Hebrew as חוֹזֵה הַמְדִינָה, Khozeh HaMedinah, lit. 'Visionary of the State') was a Jewish journalist and writer from Austria-Hungary.

"He is considered to have been the father of modern political Zionism and in effect the founder of the State of Israel."

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What land did he steal ?

Herzl spent a couple days in Israel, late October to early November 1898. He wasn't there long enough to steal any land.

 

[toastman]

Arafat the fudgepacker was born in Egypt but claimed he was a Palestinian because he coveted the Israeli P.M's residence. And that is the reason the muslim land thieves want a one sided right of return.

Where did Herzl the land thief come from?

"Theodor Herzl (Hebrew: תִאוַדָר הֶרְצֵל, Ti'vadar Hertzel; Hungarian: Herzl Tivadar; May 2, 1860 – July 3, 1904), born Benjamin Ze’ev Herzl (Hebrew: בִּנְיָמִין זְאֵב הֶרְצֵל, also known in Hebrew as חוֹזֵה הַמְדִינָה, Khozeh HaMedinah, lit. 'Visionary of the State') was a Jewish journalist and writer from Austria-Hungary.

"He is considered to have been the father of modern political Zionism and in effect the founder of the State of Israel."

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stop it George, you're making a clown out of yourself !

 

[georgephillip]

Where did Herzl the land thief come from?

"Theodor Herzl (Hebrew: תִאוַדָר הֶרְצֵל, Ti'vadar Hertzel; Hungarian: Herzl Tivadar; May 2, 1860 – July 3, 1904), born Benjamin Ze’ev Herzl (Hebrew: בִּנְיָמִין זְאֵב הֶרְצֵל, also known in Hebrew as חוֹזֵה הַמְדִינָה, Khozeh HaMedinah, lit. 'Visionary of the State') was a Jewish journalist and writer from Austria-Hungary.

"He is considered to have been the father of modern political Zionism and in effect the founder of the State of Israel."

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What land did he steal ?

Herzl spent a couple days in Israel, late October to early November 1898. He wasn't there long enough to steal any land.

"Beginning in late 1895, Herzl wrote Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State). It was published February 1896 to immediate acclaim and controversy.

"In the book he outlined reasons for the Jewish people to leave Europe, should they desire, either for Argentina or for their historic homeland, Israel, which he seemed to prefer.

"Herzl believed that the Jews possessed a nationality and all they were missing was a nation with a political structure of their own.[11]

"He also believed that the only way to avoid anti-Semitism was for Jewish people to have their own state and be able to practice their culture and religion freely.[12]

"The book and Herzl's ideas spread rapidly throughout the Jewish world and attracted international attention.

"Supporters of existing Zionist movements such as the Hovevei Zion were immediately drawn to, and allied with, Herzl.

"Conversely, Herzl and his ideas were vilified by establishment Jewry, whose followers perceived his ideas both as threatening their efforts toward acceptance and integration in their resident countries and as rebellion against the will of God."

God's against you, Hossie.
Get out while you still can.

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Phoenall]

What land did he steal ?

Herzl spent a couple days in Israel, late October to early November 1898. He wasn't there long enough to steal any land.

"Beginning in late 1895, Herzl wrote Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State). It was published February 1896 to immediate acclaim and controversy.

"In the book he outlined reasons for the Jewish people to leave Europe, should they desire, either for Argentina or for their historic homeland, Israel, which he seemed to prefer.

"Herzl believed that the Jews possessed a nationality and all they were missing was a nation with a political structure of their own.[11]

"He also believed that the only way to avoid anti-Semitism was for Jewish people to have their own state and be able to practice their culture and religion freely.[12]

"The book and Herzl's ideas spread rapidly throughout the Jewish world and attracted international attention.

"Supporters of existing Zionist movements such as the Hovevei Zion were immediately drawn to, and allied with, Herzl.

"Conversely, Herzl and his ideas were vilified by establishment Jewry, whose followers perceived his ideas both as threatening their efforts toward acceptance and integration in their resident countries and as rebellion against the will of God."

God's against you, Hossie.
Get out while you still can.

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Still does not explain what land he stole does it, which was your original false claim.

 

[georgephillip]

Arafat the fudgepacker was born in Egypt but claimed he was a Palestinian because he coveted the Israeli P.M's residence. And that is the reason the muslim land thieves want a one sided right of return.

Where did Herzl the land thief come from?

"Theodor Herzl (Hebrew: תִאוַדָר הֶרְצֵל, Ti'vadar Hertzel; Hungarian: Herzl Tivadar; May 2, 1860 – July 3, 1904), born Benjamin Ze’ev Herzl (Hebrew: בִּנְיָמִין זְאֵב הֶרְצֵל, also known in Hebrew as חוֹזֵה הַמְדִינָה, Khozeh HaMedinah, lit. 'Visionary of the State') was a Jewish journalist and writer from Austria-Hungary.

"He is considered to have been the father of modern political Zionism and in effect the founder of the State of Israel."

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stop it George, you're making a clown out of yourself !

"Theodor Herzl (Hebrew: תִאוַדָר הֶרְצֵל, Ti'vadar Hertzel; Hungarian: Herzl Tivadar; May 2, 1860 – July 3, 1904), born Benjamin Ze’ev Herzl (Hebrew: בִּנְיָמִין זְאֵב הֶרְצֵל, also known in Hebrew as חוֹזֵה הַמְדִינָה, Khozeh HaMedinah, lit. 'Visionary of the State') was a Jewish journalist and writer from Austria-Hungary.

"He is considered to have been the father of modern political Zionism and in effect the founder of the State of Israel. Herzl formed the World Zionist Organization and promoted Jewish migration to Palestine in an effort to form a Jewish state.

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bloodrock44]

The tragedy of Zionism (to Jew haters) is that it's working. Hope it keeps you awake at night.

 

[aris2chat]

Herzl spent a couple days in Israel, late October to early November 1898. He wasn't there long enough to steal any land.

"Beginning in late 1895, Herzl wrote Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State). It was published February 1896 to immediate acclaim and controversy.

"In the book he outlined reasons for the Jewish people to leave Europe, should they desire, either for Argentina or for their historic homeland, Israel, which he seemed to prefer.

"Herzl believed that the Jews possessed a nationality and all they were missing was a nation with a political structure of their own.[11]

"He also believed that the only way to avoid anti-Semitism was for Jewish people to have their own state and be able to practice their culture and religion freely.[12]

"The book and Herzl's ideas spread rapidly throughout the Jewish world and attracted international attention.

"Supporters of existing Zionist movements such as the Hovevei Zion were immediately drawn to, and allied with, Herzl.

"Conversely, Herzl and his ideas were vilified by establishment Jewry, whose followers perceived his ideas both as threatening their efforts toward acceptance and integration in their resident countries and as rebellion against the will of God."

God's against you, Hossie.
Get out while you still can.

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Still does not explain what land he stole does it, which was your original false claim.

Be it over the centuries returning to Israel, under the Ottoman invite to return, or under the mandate, jews bought land, they did not steal it. When the state if Israel was formed, public and unclaimed land was turned over to the state.
Arabs now claim that all sales to jews are null and void, but no one is returning the money they took for the sale, usually at several times the value of the land at the time. Land taken from them in other parts of the muslim world is not being offered back to the jews either, nor any other valuables they lost.
Land aquired after Israel was attacked was not part of any palestinian state, the arabs had refused the formation of such.
Jordan who annexed the WB, turned it over the Israel in a peace deal, renouncing their claim. Back then palestinians were not even will to talk to Israel let alone make peace, so without a legitimate claim by a state, Israel had a right to develop the land.
When Israel withdrew from Gaza in the hope for peace, they got only more attacks.
Jordan does not want the palestinians to control the Jordan valley, they want Israel to.
The long for the palestinians to come to terms with living in peace and recognizing Israel, the less they are likely to get in any negotiation at this point. The higher the wall will be and the more isolated palestinians will end up from the rest of the arab world.

 

[georgephillip]

Herzl spent a couple days in Israel, late October to early November 1898. He wasn't there long enough to steal any land.

"Beginning in late 1895, Herzl wrote Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State). It was published February 1896 to immediate acclaim and controversy.

"In the book he outlined reasons for the Jewish people to leave Europe, should they desire, either for Argentina or for their historic homeland, Israel, which he seemed to prefer.

"Herzl believed that the Jews possessed a nationality and all they were missing was a nation with a political structure of their own.[11]

"He also believed that the only way to avoid anti-Semitism was for Jewish people to have their own state and be able to practice their culture and religion freely.[12]

"The book and Herzl's ideas spread rapidly throughout the Jewish world and attracted international attention.

"Supporters of existing Zionist movements such as the Hovevei Zion were immediately drawn to, and allied with, Herzl.

"Conversely, Herzl and his ideas were vilified by establishment Jewry, whose followers perceived his ideas both as threatening their efforts toward acceptance and integration in their resident countries and as rebellion against the will of God."

God's against you, Hossie.
Get out while you still can.

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Still does not explain what land he stole does it, which was your original false claim.

My original claim was in response to yours regarding the inspiration Arafat supplied to "Muslim land thieves."

Hertzl similarly inspired millions of European land thieves to steal Arab land in Palestine, and some of their descendants are still hard at work on the West Bank.