The truth on being saved.

[Chuckt]

I bolded those sentences to highlight the issue. Every where in the Bible it says that God declares sinners good in His sight if they have faith in Christ to save them. It is the only thing that saves us. In Christ, in Christ, In Christ, through Christ, through Christ, through Christ. Working working working will let you down. You have nothing to do with removing sin. <the requirement to reside in heaven and again back here on earth.

I started studying the four women in the Geneology of Jesus and they are all connected to a sin.

Unlike the stories of the other women, the beautiful story of Ruth is familiar to every one
of us. There is no blot on Ruth’s character. However, she was born under a curse. She was a Moabitess. Deuteronomy 23:3 tells us that because of a certain sin the Moabites had committed, they were “shut out of the congregation of the Lord.” God’s own Word shut Ruth out! Doesn’t seems strange that the very woman the Law shut out, is found in the ancestry of Jesus Christ?

The explanation is found in the Book of Ruth. Ruth 2:12 describes Boaz as saying to
Ruth, “The Lord recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the Lord God of Israel under whose wings thou art come to trust.”

The law of God was against her, but she cast herself upon God’s mercy. We have in Ruth
the third great fact of the Gospel; Salvation is for those the Law shuts out, who come by grace alone! The Gospel is plain, we are saved by grace, apart from the Law.
Here was a woman who was shut out of the family of God by the Law. She was a
Moabitess, without promises to plead. She was alien from the commonwealth of Israel, having no hope and without God in the world, but she receives the grace and mercy of God.

http://www.netbiblestudy.com/00_cartimages/womeninjesusgenealogy.pdf

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Gods word teaches this( bottom line) --Those who endure till the end will be saved.---
Not one of us has reached the end.
There would be 1 of 2 requirements by a mortal man to know if another is saved--
1) He would have had to see ones name written in the book of life.-- he has not.
2) He would have to be able to read anothers true heart---he cannot

Thus no mortal alive knows if one is saved-- here is a prime example.

On TV Mr Joel Osteen says--say these 3 lines of prayer and you are born again( saved). about 1000 in audience, 10,000 plus on tv--He doesn't know 1/10th of them--now they all say these 3 lines and go through life thinking they are saved--yet some are workers of iniquities who walk the broad and spacious path. and I believe that as much as he had no clue about the workers of iniquity he told were saved, he has no clue about any just as no mortal does. He is elevating himself into Gods [position by teaching those are saved as any teacher who does I believe is a teacher of darkness( 2 Corinthians 11:12-15)

And Jesus saved two men dying on a cross with him that he did not know.

Correction one was saved the other was did not accept.

 

[PainefulTruth]

Jesus and his partner, John the Baptist, both taught in their dual efforts along the Jordan River, that repentance was the only path to salvation. Paul, as usual, almost never referred to what Jesus taught, but only used Jesus' convenient "revelations" to boost his own authority as a teacher of darkness, which the above passage reveals.

Good works builds a strong faith--faith without works is dead( worthless) so one has to have the works to have a faith worth something. Paul taught truth--men twist what is said--many deep hidden meanings in Gods word.

That isn't what Paul said.

Romans 4: 4 says no such. No where in the bible does it say that God declarers sinners good in his sight if they have faith in Christ to save them. Grace is not a license to sin and neither is salvation, P.T.

I agree, but Paul doesn't.

Romans 4: 4 says this: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but debt.

I don't know what bible you are reading out of but you had better toss it, P.T. What you are quoting does not exist in the Holy Bible. Futhermore, the Apostle Paul was a humble servant of God and I have no idea why you have such issues with him. Do you? - Jeri

That's an accurate translation from the Living Bible. And even if it isn't, are you saying then that some some bibles can be wrong? How do we know which ones? Who determines which of them? God? If so, you're saying that God has fallen down on the job.

You missed a verse:

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Romans 4:5)

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of god by faith:"-Philippians 3:9

“Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.”-Habakkuk 2:4

"...it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."-I Corinthians 1:21

Yes faith has its purpose as does works. Obviously when James taught-- Faith without works is dead---- it was showing there are 2 kinds of faith.
1) faith with no works = worthless
2) faith that built up strong because of its works= acceptable.

So both faith and works serves a purpose all to the glory of the Father( YHWH) Jehovah) and his appointed king Jesus.

There you've encapsulated the enmity between James and Paul. Paul was ultimately victorious (biblically speaking until today) because his version of faith alone theology won out when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE, removing the Jewish followers of the non-divine, heroic but completely human, Jesus, from the scene.

Every where in the Bible it says that God declares sinners good in His sight if they have faith in Christ to save them. It is the only thing that saves us.

Then why did Jesus and John the Baptist teach the importance of repentance? That's trying to be good, which Paul said wasn't necessary.

Let's look at Romans 4: 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but debt.

The reward for work is debt. It is you trying to pay the debt you owe. It does not fall under the unmerited favor we have through Christ's work.
It is a warning. Your not covered, you have no unmerited favor. You have yourself and a bunch of debt you owe for breaking the law. That sentence is death. 1 sin = death. You had better be very sure of your holiness if you choose to go it alone.

James and the Jerusalem followers of Jesus were saying that this (and thus Paul) are wrong. It's why they were about to kill Paul when he was saved by his Herodian acquired Roman citizenship. They probably weren't aware of that until then, and if they had been, they'd have probably hounded him to the ends of the Earth, and a lot sooner.

 

[TheBarber]

God couldn't even save Jesus, how do you expect him to save you?

 

[Chuckt]

Then why did Jesus and John the Baptist teach the importance of repentance? That's trying to be good, which Paul said wasn't necessary.

Repentance is a step. All the repentance you need is in the word "believe".

Repentance is a step but it is also a result of salvation.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

"For" is a causual / resultant in the Greek. If I said, "take an aspirin FOR a headache", it doesn't mean "take an aspirin to get a headache." You take an aspirin as a result of the headache.

Did you ever hear of Charles Ryrie? He wrote a book called "Basic Theology" and he translated Acts 2:38 as:

Acts 2:38,"Repent, and be baptized...as a result of the remission of sins." "for" is in the resultant sense. repent and be baptized as a result of being saved

Acts 2:38 may be translated,"Be baptized because of the remission of sins"-Dr. Charles Ryrie

The Preposition "EIS" may be translated "because of" and it is translated that way in Matthew 12:41 and Luke 11:42

Peter makes it clear that the resurrection of Christ saves us and not baptism 1 Peter 1:3.

Acts 2:38 Peter made no reference to baptism in his next recorded sermon Acts 3:19

Our faith in Christ, not baptism, is what saves us (Acts 16:31; John 3:16).

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[Chuckt]

God couldn't even save Jesus, how do you expect him to save you?

If God saved Jesus or if Jesus saved Himself then He couldn't have saved me.

 

[TheBarber]

God couldn't even save Jesus, how do you expect him to save you?

If God saved Jesus or if Jesus saved Himself then He couldn't have saved me.

God can save anyone he wants. You lose.

 

[PainefulTruth]

Then why did Jesus and John the Baptist teach the importance of repentance? That's trying to be good, which Paul said wasn't necessary.

Repentance is a step. All the repentance you need is in the word "believe".

Repentance is a step but it is also a result of salvation.

"John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins."--Mark 1:4

"For I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mat 9:13

God couldn't even save Jesus, how do you expect him to save you?

Actually, it's that God mustn't save Jesus, or interfere in the natural universe for any reason, in order to preserve our free will. Jesus first felt betrayed when God didn't reinhabit the Temple when he'd cleansed it, and then again on the cross. He never understood that God was maintaining his free will as well--if God exists.

If God saved Jesus or if Jesus saved Himself then He couldn't have saved me.

No one can die for your repentance. It's a barbaric, pagan concept which goes back to Paul and his heritage of Mithraism, which got its first foothold in the Roman Empire cir. 70 BCE from its center in Tarsus--Paul's hometown.

 

[emilynghiem]

false! you believe you have god's pov.
the scriptures are at best faulty reflections written by humans.

Hi Daws:
do you believe that "natural laws" are given by Nature/God/Life
just like the "laws of physics" and "laws of gravity" are not manmade?

Just because we use "manmade" languages of science and math to express
these inherent laws, does not mean they should be discounted as manmade.

Same with the scriptural or spiritual laws.

We did not "invent" human nature to be body/mind/spirit.

But if you look at ALL the world's religions, and yes even secular and civil laws,
these all REFLECT the same "trinity" or three levels of human experience and relations.

So these are "reflections" or "representations" of spiritual laws already in existence.

We did not make up the content of what these laws seek to represent.
We did write down and pass down the manmade systems of expressing the laws.

And you are right, these are not perfect.
The constitutional laws of the state did not perfectly express natural laws for
all humanity, and have had to be amended or interpreted broader than what was written.

Same with the Biblical laws, these are symbolic and cannot contain the whole of
universal laws for all humanity in one book. So it is written in symbolism to
represent the relationships between man and man, and between man and God or the collective level of all knowledge and truth. That can only be captured in analogies
so the Christians use Jesus to represent universal Justice and salvation for all humanity.

These systems are not perfect, but they strive to communicate what we can agree upon
of the truth we can understand and know. Not the whole of God's laws, because of course we can never contain all that in our limited human perception and language for these laws.

The content and spirit of the laws are universal.
The language and expression is relative, and limited to what we can write speak experience and understand in relations to each other and our perception of the collective whole. You are right this depends on our POV. it is the sum of all the individual POV that makes up the universal truth which God represents as the source of all life, laws, truth and knowledge.
None of us can ever contain all that. We are like volumes of books in a library, where each person contributes our understanding and experience to the collection, while the while is still greater than the sum of the parts.

Yours truly,
Emily

 

[emilynghiem]

God couldn't even save Jesus, how do you expect him to save you?

???

Dear TheBarber PainefulTruth and Daws101:

The script of life was not written this way.

Because humans learn by experience and free will, the pattern of life includes periods or stages of "loss and grieving" before recovery and rebirth.

So it is a season or stage in life that happens this way.

You cannot take one event out of context with the whole script, and interpret it as God unable to do X Y Z.

If the script is written that way, then God has no reason to go against the plan, or else it would have been written another way in the first place, by definition that God's will is supreme.

What Jesus means is JUSTICE.

So the sacrifice of Jesus as the embodiment of perfect, divine JUSTICE
was to incarnate this spirit of God's justice into man's realm, and with
the death and resurrection, it is like "rebooting" the system of man's fallen laws
with this new boost of true justice inserted. So this spirit of justice can
clean out all the corruption that had invaded the human conscience and body of laws.

When the system is re-started, then it will work right, by the correct spirit of the laws of
truth and justice. So Jesus was meant to be sacrificed in human form
as part of this process, similar to downloading a program to clean out viruses
and having to kill the computer and restart it so the new program can infiltrate
all the files and renew the whole system to work the way it was designed in the first place.

 

[Chuckt]

God couldn't even save Jesus, how do you expect him to save you?

If God saved Jesus or if Jesus saved Himself then He couldn't have saved me.

God can save anyone he wants. You lose.

He can but in order to be a propitiation for man's sins, He would have to come down here as the second Adam, live a sinless life, obey the law and die for men's sins. If He didn't die for men's sins then we wouldn't be saved. That is why, if He saved Himself, He wouldn't be able to save us.

 

[Avatar4321]

God couldn't even save Jesus, how do you expect him to save you?

If God saved Jesus or if Jesus saved Himself then He couldn't have saved me.

God can save anyone he wants. You lose.

Wow, in two posts you end up arguing the polar opposite.

 

[Avatar4321]

Then why did Jesus and John the Baptist teach the importance of repentance? That's trying to be good, which Paul said wasn't necessary.

Repentance is a step. All the repentance you need is in the word "believe".

Repentance is a step but it is also a result of salvation.

"John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins."--Mark 1:4

"For I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mat 9:13

God couldn't even save Jesus, how do you expect him to save you?

Actually, it's that God mustn't save Jesus, or interfere in the natural universe for any reason, in order to preserve our free will. Jesus first felt betrayed when God didn't reinhabit the Temple when he'd cleansed it, and then again on the cross. He never understood that God was maintaining his free will as well--if God exists.

If God saved Jesus or if Jesus saved Himself then He couldn't have saved me.

No one can die for your repentance. It's a barbaric, pagan concept which goes back to Paul and his heritage of Mithraism, which got its first foothold in the Roman Empire cir. 70 BCE from its center in Tarsus--Paul's hometown.

Your argument makes no sense. My free will is in no way impeded because God acts in the lives of men. That is like saying that somehow I take away your free will if I give you money for dinner.

 

[kjw47]

You missed a verse:

"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Romans 4:5)

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of god by faith:"-Philippians 3:9

“Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.”-Habakkuk 2:4

"...it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."-I Corinthians 1:21

Yes faith has its purpose as does works. Obviously when James taught-- Faith without works is dead---- it was showing there are 2 kinds of faith.
1) faith with no works = worthless
2) faith that built up strong because of its works= acceptable.

So both faith and works serves a purpose all to the glory of the Father( YHWH) Jehovah) and his appointed king Jesus.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James acknowledges that Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness. It means that righteousness was added to Abraham's account just for believing and not because of anything he did because this was several chapters (Genesis 15) before Isaac was offered (justified before works in Genesis 22) on the altar of God.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Abraham served the true God--believed the true God, believed in the true God--Abraham served YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God--as did every Israelite that existed that served the true God--so does Jesus--John 20:17, rev 3:12, 1 cor 15:24-28--- so does the true Gods followers--they worship the Father( YHWH)Jehovah) in spirit and truth.

 

[The Irish Ram]

You can be saved from reality by believing in invisible people.

Christ was not invisible before or after His death. Someone was hanging on that cross!
Thomas was invited to touch Christ's hands. Because Christ had hands.

And for whomever thinks that God couldn't save Jesus. Not only could God have saved Him, He could have dropped the whole crowd dead on the spot. So could Christ have.

HE CAME HERE TO BE UP ON THAT CROSS. That was the mission. To pay for our sins so Satan would have nothing to condemn us with. To redeem us. When He finished His goal He said, "It is finished". He didn't accidentally wind up in a womb. His mission was predicted long before His time:

Isaiah 53: 4-6 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.
All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

As for power, God raised His Son from the dead. You try that......

 

[Avatar4321]

You can be saved from reality by believing in invisible people.

invisible people? I don't know any invisible people. Though I suppose one could argue that as we talk on a message board via computer that we are all invisible to each other.

 

[hobelim]

You can be saved from reality by believing in invisible people.

invisible people? I don't know any invisible people. Though I suppose one could argue that as we talk on a message board via computer that we are all invisible to each other.

What about the belief in Satan as an invisible disembodied entity who tries to possess people to make them do naughty things or the belief in the holy spirit as an invisible entity from God who lives in people to teach them the truth which set up the hapless believer to either be afraid of their own thoughts when any rational thought or doubt arises in their own minds as if it was a demonic attack or they will imagine that any irrational speculation they may have is of divine origin.

Either way the mind of the believer is screwed.......

 

[Avatar4321]

His lack of a physical body doesn't make him invisible. He can very much appear to some. Nor is the Holy Spirit invisible. He too can appear to us.

 

[Chuckt]

His lack of a physical body doesn't make him invisible. He can very much appear to some. Nor is the Holy Spirit invisible. He too can appear to us.

Jesus has a physical body and was still able to walk through walls.

These beings have power.

 

[hobelim]

His lack of a physical body doesn't make him invisible. He can very much appear to some. Nor is the Holy Spirit invisible. He too can appear to us.

Jesus has a physical body and was still able to walk through walls.

These beings have power.

LOL......


its little wonder that it used to be illegal for people of certain professed religious beliefs to hold public office.

It would seem to be a matter of national security to not have people who can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy or a history book from a fairy tale to not be in any position of authority.

Imagine how fucked up things could get if they were?

Oh, wait a minute......nevermind.