The U.S. Need Not be divided forever-The Case for Blood and Iron

[SavannahMann]

So you want to follow a philosophy that failed twice and cost the German People billions in lost economic resources and millions of dead? I’m not sure this is the plan forward. In fact. If history is any indicator it is the path to ruination.

The past is not prologue.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

That's a myth that historians (I'm an amateur one myself) love to promote because it makes them seem relevant to the present day. The following is more accurate:

"History never repeats itself. Only historians do."

History repeats time and time again.

In World War One the Germans went through Belgium. In War II it was the same plan all over again including Belgium.

Napoleons invasion of Russia failed thanks to General Winter. Hitler found the same thing awaiting him.

Shall I continue?

History repeats itself constantly. The reason is arrogant people. How many times have invaders failed to take and hold Afghanistan? This time will be different. We have technology and will win the hearts and minds. End result? Same as everyone else.

Wall Street keeps making the same mistakes. Why? Well greed. We are doing the same thing now that melted down the economy twelve years ago. Only now it has different names. So it’s totally different. This time it will work.

The economy will melt down again. And we will do nothing to reform it. And we will bail out the companies. Again. Because we have to protect the economy.

 

[Dr Grump]

Careful, Dr. Grump is a badass and he might send some typing over to kick your ass.

You're the only keyboard warrior around here, Tough Guy...

 

[Dr Grump]

I ask you to explain because all you post is "Orange Man Bad!"
Seriously, you come off like a low IQ janitor.

yeah, well, I've explained ad nauseam on this board why I think he 's a scum sucking piece of shit. And it doesn't have a lot to with him being president, although he has been found wanting on several fronts in that regard. I'm not going to post the reasons over and over again.

You have never explained anything.
The fact that you believe you have shows what a low IQ you have.

I know you think that Trump sucks because he stopped paying other nations to like the US.
How much does your country give to pay the bills of other nations?
Would those nations still like your nation if you stopped paying their bills?

Maybe not to you, but then again, I'm not here for your amusement. I have explained many times on this board why I think he is a piece of shit.

He's dumb as a sack of rocks, vulgar, rude, incurious, a bully, narcissistic, super egotistical, misogynistic - in other words, all the things you seem to admire. Also note, none of these things have anything to do with him being president. Also, just as an FYI, these are all the things I said about him BEFORE he become president.

As for the US paying, well yes, NZ does that same with all the Pacific Island nations that surround us - Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Nauru etc - give them a shit load of money. Sure, not on the scale as the US does to other nations, but per head of population it's about the same.

 

[Dr Grump]

1. Granted the ME is a hypocritical shit hole.

2. The ME, is not our responsibility or our fault.

3. That they Muslim extremists attack us, IS their fault.

4. You hold US responsible for everything and give our enemies a pass for everything. That is you being anti-American, and not reasonable.

See, you miss the point yet again. Me giving you the reasons for people doing things is not me giving them a free pass, it's me giving you reasons. And it is the above attitude (don't care why it happened) is why you will make the same mistakes over and over again. You're like a person who keeps on hitting their head on a plank that is in your way on the sidewalk - you keep hitting your head and cursing the plank, whereas a more circumspect person would move the plank.

Of course you take some of the blame. If your friend rapes somebody, and while doing so you sit around watching him, egging him on, laughing and clapping and all this is recorded, do you think the local police and DA would press charges against you? Would a jury find you guilty of the charge (aiding and abetting most likely). Fucking oath they would. You want to supply arms to a extremist dictatorship like Saudi Arabia, people will bite back at the hand that feeds such a dictatorship. Instead of using your international 'muscle' to try and get the country to be less extreme and more moderate, you use it to fill the bank coffers of your oil companies. Again, go for it. But don't expect people to be happy about it.

 

[Correll]

1. Granted the ME is a hypocritical shit hole.

2. The ME, is not our responsibility or our fault.

3. That they Muslim extremists attack us, IS their fault.

4. You hold US responsible for everything and give our enemies a pass for everything. That is you being anti-American, and not reasonable.

See, you miss the point yet again. Me giving you the reasons for people doing things is not me giving them a free pass, it's me giving you reasons. And it is the above attitude (don't care why it happened) is why you will make the same mistakes over and over again. You're like a person who keeps on hitting their head on a plank that is in your way on the sidewalk - you keep hitting your head and cursing the plank, whereas a more circumspect person would move the plank.

Of course you take some of the blame. If your friend rapes somebody, and while doing so you sit around watching him, egging him on, laughing and clapping and all this is recorded, do you think the local police and DA would press charges against you? Would a jury find you guilty of the charge (aiding and abetting most likely). Fucking oath they would. You want to supply arms to a extremist dictatorship like Saudi Arabia, people will bite back at the hand that feeds such a dictatorship. Instead of using your international 'muscle' to try and get the country to be less extreme and more moderate, you use it to fill the bank coffers of your oil companies. Again, go for it. But don't expect people to be happy about it.

Your position is all over the place. ON one hand you present our interference in the ME as a "reason" for US being attacked while also presenting our LACK of interference as a "reason" for US being attacked.


THAT IS NOT REASONABLE. HELL, IT IS NOT RATIONAL.

 

[Concerned American]

1. Granted the ME is a hypocritical shit hole.

2. The ME, is not our responsibility or our fault.

3. That they Muslim extremists attack us, IS their fault.

4. You hold US responsible for everything and give our enemies a pass for everything. That is you being anti-American, and not reasonable.

See, you miss the point yet again. Me giving you the reasons for people doing things is not me giving them a free pass, it's me giving you reasons. And it is the above attitude (don't care why it happened) is why you will make the same mistakes over and over again. You're like a person who keeps on hitting their head on a plank that is in your way on the sidewalk - you keep hitting your head and cursing the plank, whereas a more circumspect person would move the plank.

Of course you take some of the blame. If your friend rapes somebody, and while doing so you sit around watching him, egging him on, laughing and clapping and all this is recorded, do you think the local police and DA would press charges against you? Would a jury find you guilty of the charge (aiding and abetting most likely). Fucking oath they would. You want to supply arms to a extremist dictatorship like Saudi Arabia, people will bite back at the hand that feeds such a dictatorship. Instead of using your international 'muscle' to try and get the country to be less extreme and more moderate, you use it to fill the bank coffers of your oil companies. Again, go for it. But don't expect people to be happy about it.

Your position is all over the place. ON one hand you present our interference in the ME as a "reason" for US being attacked while also presenting our LACK of interference as a "reason" for US being attacked.


THAT IS NOT REASONABLE. HELL, IT IS NOT RATIONAL.

Can't expect much more from a limey moron who thinks he's a bad ass dog.

 

[Dr Grump]

1. Granted the ME is a hypocritical shit hole.

2. The ME, is not our responsibility or our fault.

3. That they Muslim extremists attack us, IS their fault.

4. You hold US responsible for everything and give our enemies a pass for everything. That is you being anti-American, and not reasonable.

See, you miss the point yet again. Me giving you the reasons for people doing things is not me giving them a free pass, it's me giving you reasons. And it is the above attitude (don't care why it happened) is why you will make the same mistakes over and over again. You're like a person who keeps on hitting their head on a plank that is in your way on the sidewalk - you keep hitting your head and cursing the plank, whereas a more circumspect person would move the plank.

Of course you take some of the blame. If your friend rapes somebody, and while doing so you sit around watching him, egging him on, laughing and clapping and all this is recorded, do you think the local police and DA would press charges against you? Would a jury find you guilty of the charge (aiding and abetting most likely). Fucking oath they would. You want to supply arms to a extremist dictatorship like Saudi Arabia, people will bite back at the hand that feeds such a dictatorship. Instead of using your international 'muscle' to try and get the country to be less extreme and more moderate, you use it to fill the bank coffers of your oil companies. Again, go for it. But don't expect people to be happy about it.

Your position is all over the place. ON one hand you present our interference in the ME as a "reason" for US being attacked while also presenting our LACK of interference as a "reason" for US being attacked.


THAT IS NOT REASONABLE. HELL, IT IS NOT RATIONAL.

You need to learn to read. The fact you don't do nuance is of no surprise. They are intertwined. There is good interference and bad interference. Eg: humanitarian aid to a country? Good interference. Supplying arms to a dictatorship? Bad interference.

 

[Dr Grump]

Can't expect much more from a limey moron who thinks he's a bad ass dog.

I'm not British

You're the one who started out like a tough guy...not I.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

There were many reasons Germany ultimately resorted to an aggressive and adventurous foreign policy that — along with other nations’ mistakes — eventually led to WWI and WWII. There were also many reasons German citizens went along, more or less willingly, at the start of both terrible wars.

But Otto von Bismarck’s 1862 “Blood and Iron” speech and his later unification of the scattered German principalities cannot be blamed for all the terrible things that followed in the 20th century. Bismarck was speaking about uniting German territories, territories that were not successfully united by the liberal democratic revolution of 1848. After uniting the German states under Prussian domination, Bismarck proved a capable statesman/politician. Unfortunately by sentiment and conviction he was loyal to the Prussian King and later German Emperors. He was not a warmonger, however, and was personally opposed to establishing overseas colonies.

Bismarck built up a strong German state which combined a parliament with social welfare policies (to limit the appeal of socialism) and he carefully preserved the European balance of powers. Although there were of course some all-but-inevitable early conflicts with the Austro-Hungarian empire and France, eminent British historian Eric Hobsbawm said accurately of Bismarck that he "remained undisputed world champion at the game of multilateral diplomatic chess for almost twenty years after 1871, [and] devoted himself exclusively, and successfully, to maintaining peace between the powers".

Any assumption that a divided country like the U.S. can now be unified by imperialist adventures, by “Blood and Iron” campaigns overseas, is sure to prove very mistaken. Of course continuing low casualty high tech military abuse and economic sanctions against much weaker countries, which we carry out regularly all over the globe, is another matter entirely. American (U.S.) citizens still seem to show little understanding of Uncle Sam’s real and changing role in the world.

 

[Correll]

1. Granted the ME is a hypocritical shit hole.

2. The ME, is not our responsibility or our fault.

3. That they Muslim extremists attack us, IS their fault.

4. You hold US responsible for everything and give our enemies a pass for everything. That is you being anti-American, and not reasonable.

See, you miss the point yet again. Me giving you the reasons for people doing things is not me giving them a free pass, it's me giving you reasons. And it is the above attitude (don't care why it happened) is why you will make the same mistakes over and over again. You're like a person who keeps on hitting their head on a plank that is in your way on the sidewalk - you keep hitting your head and cursing the plank, whereas a more circumspect person would move the plank.

Of course you take some of the blame. If your friend rapes somebody, and while doing so you sit around watching him, egging him on, laughing and clapping and all this is recorded, do you think the local police and DA would press charges against you? Would a jury find you guilty of the charge (aiding and abetting most likely). Fucking oath they would. You want to supply arms to a extremist dictatorship like Saudi Arabia, people will bite back at the hand that feeds such a dictatorship. Instead of using your international 'muscle' to try and get the country to be less extreme and more moderate, you use it to fill the bank coffers of your oil companies. Again, go for it. But don't expect people to be happy about it.

Your position is all over the place. ON one hand you present our interference in the ME as a "reason" for US being attacked while also presenting our LACK of interference as a "reason" for US being attacked.


THAT IS NOT REASONABLE. HELL, IT IS NOT RATIONAL.

You need to learn to read. The fact you don't do nuance is of no surprise. They are intertwined. There is good interference and bad interference. Eg: humanitarian aid to a country? Good interference. Supplying arms to a dictatorship? Bad interference.

One of the points you slammed America for was not using our soft power against the legitimate governments of Saudi Arabia, and other dictatorships.

If we had done that, you would be pointing out that as "reasons" for them attacking us.


Everything we do, is a "reason". Everything we DON'T do, is a "reason".


You are biased against America, and you see justifications in everything for your bias, because of Confirmation Bias.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So you want to follow a philosophy that failed twice and cost the German People billions in lost economic resources and millions of dead? I’m not sure this is the plan forward. In fact. If history is any indicator it is the path to ruination.

The past is not prologue.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

That's a myth that historians (I'm an amateur one myself) love to promote because it makes them seem relevant to the present day. The following is more accurate:

"History never repeats itself. Only historians do."

THAT is a myth perpetuated by arrogant people who think bad ideas would be good if only they were the ones implementing them.

 

[d0gbreath]

If you think the US is divided today, you weren't around in the '60s-'70s.

 

[d0gbreath]

Concerned American

You disagree but don't bother to say why.

 

[Concerned American]

If you think the US is divided today, you weren't around in the '60s-'70s.

I was around in the 60's and 70's and I can tell you without any doubt at all that the country is more polarized now than it was even during the Nixon impeachment. This in spite of the old saw says that "If you remember the 60's and 70's, you weren't there." LOL

 

[Concerned American]

Concerned American

You disagree but don't bother to say why.

Sorry it takes time for these old arthritic hands to type. Patience.

 

[d0gbreath]

If you think the US is divided today, you weren't around in the '60s-'70s.

I was around in the 60's and 70's and I can tell you without any doubt at all that the country is more polarized now than it was even during the Nixon impeachment. This in spite of the old saw says that "If you remember the 60's and 70's, you weren't there." LOL

Since Nixon wasn't impeached, this is a good stopping place.

 

[Cecilie1200]

If you think the US is divided today, you weren't around in the '60s-'70s.

I was around in the 60's and 70's and I can tell you without any doubt at all that the country is more polarized now than it was even during the Nixon impeachment. This in spite of the old saw says that "If you remember the 60's and 70's, you weren't there." LOL

Since Nixon wasn't impeached, this is a good stopping place.

No, but the House was in the process of drawing up Articles of Impeachment, I believe, when he resigned.

 

[Dr Grump]

One of the points you slammed America for was not using our soft power against the legitimate governments of Saudi Arabia, and other dictatorships.

If we had done that, you would be pointing out that as "reasons" for them attacking us.


Everything we do, is a "reason". Everything we DON'T do, is a "reason".


You are biased against America, and you see justifications in everything for your bias, because of Confirmation Bias.

??Soft power? You call giving SA arms (both small and high end) soft? Why would I point out that as reasons for attacking you (you not giving them what they want)? They are attacking you anyway. SA funds fundamental madrassses that breed extremists. What does the US do? Attack Iraq. Makes total sense!

I'm not justifying any terrorist actions against the US. The reason Germany invaded Czechoslovakia was because Hitler wanted a Gross Deutschland. And I think Hitler was a piece of shit. Don't mistake me pointing out 'reasons' as me supporting anything or anyone.

Like most right-wing neocon Deplorable Americans you lack any introspection. Nothing the US does is wrong (whether accidental or purposefully). You have been force fed American exceptionalism since you were an infant and if any dare criticise or point out flaws, instead of some self-reflection, you lash out like a bully boy. You think because you have done a lot of good in the world, that you are above criticism when you fuck up. You're not.

Has America done more good in the world than bad. IMO, absolutely. A lot more. Has it done some dumb shit? Yes. And when you do, own it. Don't whine like a little bitch.