The United States Was Born Liberal

[Tech_Esq]

The meaning of the word liberal has so changed that having a rational discussion about the "liberalism" of the founding fathers makes zero sense in today's context.

True, let's hear it for Manchester Liberalism!!

 

[Shogun]

Did you vote for Obama because you were in love with Obama, or because you didn't like McCain?

I voted for Obama because he didn't vote for the war in Iraq. I voted for John Kerry because he was a vietnam vet who had the balls to stand up to the status quo regarding the the war fiasco of his time. I have always said that I respected Mccain because he was more of a peacemaker than the rabid conservative branch of the republican party. It wa a shame that he had to LEAP to the right in order to lure the republican base but, hey.. it wasn't my primary choice.

It seems to me that "conservatives" are paying for having paired themselves up with republicans as long as it was politically viable to associate democrat with "liberal". Now, because of the hindshight FAILURES of that choice we see "conservatives" trying to throw republicans under the bus. Hilarious from my vantage point.

 

[Tech_Esq]

I think our movement is better defined as Progressive.

Conservs want to stay with the status quo and not change.

Progressives are always thinking ahead.

Conservatives sit and think. But mostly they just sit.

No, Conservatives think the "Progressives" have fucked up this country and the world and are actively taking steps to make it worse.

Conservatives do not want the status quo. Sometimes they are forced to accept it as a matter of fact, but they don't want it. They desire a separate vision free of state-ism and nanny-ism without the oppressive presence of government everywhere one turns. So clearly, conservatives do not want the status quo.

 

[Tech_Esq]

I voted for Obama because he didn't vote for the war in Iraq. I voted for John Kerry because he was a vietnam vet who had the balls to stand up to the status quo regarding the the war fiasco of his time. I have always said that I respected Mccain because he was more of a peacemaker than the rabid conservative branch of the republican party. It wa a shame that he had to LEAP to the right in order to lure the republican base but, hey.. it wasn't my primary choice.

It seems to me that "conservatives" are paying for having paired themselves up with republicans as long as it was politically viable to associate democrat with "liberal". Now, because of the hindshight FAILURES of that choice we see "conservatives" trying to throw republicans under the bus. Hilarious from my vantage point.

Apparently you don't remember the 1980s when the Dems and Liberals did the same thing after running Mondale and Dukakis for back-to-back stunning defeats. That's why they ran a DLC member like Clinton in 1992.

 

[Lycurgus]

"The United States, as the political scientist Louis Hartz argued in the 1950s, was born liberal. We fought for our independence against Great Britain and the conservatism that flourished there. In Europe, a conservative was someone who defended the traditions of the monarchy, justified the privileges of the nobility, and welcomed the intervention of a state-affiliated clergy in politics. But all those things would be tossed out by the revolutionaries who led the war for independence and then wrote the Constitution. We chose to have an elected president, not an anointed monarch. Our Constitution prohibited the granting of titles of nobility. We separated church and state."

Quote from: "Why Conservatives Can't Govern" by Alan Wolfe (Emphasis mine)

The quote in context makes logical sense to me... Elite power base, Church influence in politics, Wealth to the wealthy - almost makes one wish we had another new world to conquer in order to establish yet another more perfect union...

-Joe

Say it ain't so Joe!

Comparing American Conservatism to European Monarchies is simply foolish and shows a complete lack of reasonable understanding. The liberals I debate with often who live in the UK don't see it this way and if anyone should be able to draw a correlation, it is them. You offered nothing but your opinion supported by two very bias commentary articles.

Yep, there ya go again Joe!

 

[sealybobo]

The private sector generates wealth, not the government. I absolutely agree that we need to balance our budget and pay off our deficit. But raising taxes is not the solution. Cutting taxes and cutting government spending is the way to go.

Spending for the sake of spending is not a solution.

Everyone in Washington agrees that we can't fix the mess we are in and we can't save social security by cutting spending alone.

Taxes need to be raised.

And, this country needs a facelift. If only we didn't piss away a trillion dollars in the last 8 years.

I say we abolish the Federal Reserve and renig on the national debt. Sure we will pay China back with interest, but the USA will manage our own finances. No more letting private bankers do it with interest.

And then we will truly be free.

PS. They said Clinton would cause a recession when he raised taxes. Turns out that was wrong then, so guess what I think about your assumtion now?

 

[sealybobo]

No, Conservatives think the "Progressives" have fucked up this country and the world and are actively taking steps to make it worse.

Conservatives do not want the status quo. Sometimes they are forced to accept it as a matter of fact, but they don't want it. They desire a separate vision free of state-ism and nanny-ism without the oppressive presence of government everywhere one turns. So clearly, conservatives do not want the status quo.

What Conservatives/Republicans just don’t get

1. Their economic policies don’t work for 98% of you.
2. Most of you are Have Not’s, not HAVES.
3. You don’t want anyone else’s religious/social opinions shoved on you, yet you…
4. The middle class is not a natural thing or a product of free markets. Free markets/capitalism gives you a few rich, a small middle class and a huge poor population.
5. The GOP uses wedge issues to get you to vote against your own $ interests.
6. There isn’t anything conservative about the GOP.
7. Clinton was more conservative than Reagan or either Bush Presidents.
8. The GOP has been lying to them for 30 years about what their real agenda is.
9. This economy is great, if you are in the top 1% tax bracket.
10. The GOP isn’t about smaller government, only corporate deregulations.
11. Republicans are pro pollution so corporations can make more money.
12. Before Reagan, a family could do well with one income earner in the family.
13. 3 out of 4 of us are one layoff or healthcare problem away from financial ruin.
14. It’s better to pay more taxes now than to let the debt double.
15. Trickle down doesn’t work.
16. The GOP sent jobs overseas. Sure Clinton signed NAFTA, but the GOP are the ones giving tax breaks to companies that leave our shores.
17. They think they are protecting what is theirs but what they are doing is costing themselves plenty
18. When they give up some of their freedoms for safety, they get neither.

 

[DiamondDave]

Put the bong down bobo... your assumptions about the GOP or conservatism are utterly ridiculous hogwash... you are so blinded by your uber-leftist masters

 

[Steerpike]

Of course they are... conservatives want to maintain the status quo. Liberals want to move society forward. It's one of the reasons I said the radical right wasn't ever conservative.

No, that still doesn't make them the "same." You can't just say "status quo" versus "change." You have to look at the public policies that would be been supported by both groups. There is no way the public policy positions of "progressive" Founders would be considered "liberal" today, at least not to any large degree.

Heck, at the time of the Founders, the Bill of Rights only applied to the Federal government and did not constrain the states. You could have "state" religions, abortion if allowed at all would have been left to the states, etc. By no means progressive in terms of today's progressives.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Joe, speaking of "smell" did you happen to hear the words spoken at the decication of the new Visitors Center at the Capitol yesterday by Harry Reid? He said something to the effect that one bonus was that during the summer he would no longer have to smell the tourists comming into the Capitol building during the summer. I thought to myself, now there is a good commentary on how our elected representatives think of the people they represent. Big Govt. has and is, spending away my daughters future and personally these day's I don't see much difference between people in congress that lack ethics and the steel to represent the people that actually voted for them.

I didn't. Pretty sad that we pay him what we do.

Few and far between are the individuals who can truly look on their neighbors with compassion and as human resources.

-Joe

 

[sealybobo]

Put the bong down bobo... your assumptions about the GOP or conservatism are utterly ridiculous hogwash... you are so blinded by your uber-leftist masters

Actually, what fuels me is my hatred of the GOP. It has nothing to do with the Democrats. They are just the lesser of two evils. And they are right about what the GOP is doing to the middle class, wages, jobs going overseas, bankrupting the treasury, unfair tax breaks, trickle down,

Dave, it just so happens that the Democrats turned out to be right!!! Can you believe it!! Your party really does suck! Wow!


So stop sucking the GOP's sweaty salty balls. It's hard work raping America and the rest of the world. That's why they are so sweaty.

 

[sealybobo]

What is the govenment going to spend money on that is going to boost the economy? Are they going to make jobs out of thin air? Should they just give you a big fat check? Be specific sealy. I want to see how stupid you can make yourself look.




Call it whatever you need to call it. The fact is taxes will go up.

Not for you.

 

[Andrew2382]

I voted for Obama because he didn't vote for the war in Iraq.

I am guessing because Obama wasn't even in the Federal Senate when the vote to go to war went down would be a primary reason he didn't vote for it.

You know, the Iraq authorization vote happened in 02 and Obama was sworn in office as Senator in 05 I think...

 

[Ravi]

PS. They said Clinton would cause a recession when he raised taxes. Turns out that was wrong then, so guess what I think about your assumtion now?

Come on, Bobo! Didn't you hear Bush blame the recession on Clinton? It just took seven long years to get here.

 

[DiamondDave]

Actually, what fuels me is my hatred of the GOP. It has nothing to do with the Democrats. They are just the lesser of two evils. And they are right about what the GOP is doing to the middle class, wages, jobs going overseas, bankrupting the treasury, unfair tax breaks, trickle down,

Dave, it just so happens that the Democrats turned out to be right!!! Can you believe it!! Your party really does suck! Wow!


So stop sucking the GOP's sweaty salty balls. It's hard work raping America and the rest of the world. That's why they are so sweaty.

Again, clown... your baseless slogans, being repeated over and over again, do not turn true just because of your repetition

 

[Bern80]

What Conservatives/Republicans just don’t get

thank you for making your list of faulty assumptions nice and neat for me to pick apart. We'll start with the one above; there not the same thing convenient as you would like that to be

1. Their economic policies don’t work for 98% of you.

They work for me just fine. What 2% am I in? Tax cuts have worked everytime they are tried. An overall conservative economic policy would be one of small government which by extension should allow taxes to go down which would put more money in people's pockets. Now would that not work for people?

2. Most of you are Have Not’s, not HAVES.

I think most people including the Republicans are fairly capable of understanding basic socio-economic statistics.

3. You don’t want anyone else’s religious/social opinions shoved on you, yet you…

You are speaking the non-existant religous right of course. Yet another term that is not a synonym for Republican. Just as their are extremist peacniks do not define the entirety of the democratic party, the religious right does not define the Republican party or conservatism.

4. The middle class is not a natural thing or a product of free markets. Free markets/capitalism gives you a few rich, a small middle class and a huge poor population.

Wrong. Free market capitalism does not have predefined groups. It let's the group define themselves. One succeeds or fails by their own ingenuity and motivation in a free market. the free market does not predestine anyone to a certain station in life.

5. The GOP uses wedge issues to get you to vote against your own $ interests.

It is not in your financial interest to attain wealth by simply haveing it taken from someone and given to you.

6. There isn’t anything conservative about the GOP.

WHOA! Make up your mind Sealy. You said before (and in the very first line of this post) that they are the same thing.

Clinton was more conservative than Reagan or either Bush Presidents.

Definately not more conservative than Reagan. I don't recall any tax cuts under Clinton just 'liberal' use of the oval office.

8.The GOP has been lying to them for 30 years about what their real agenda is.

Barely warrants comment, as whatever you think that agenda is most likely incorrect and the equivalent of me saying the democrat agenda is to push us into communism.

9. This economy is great, if you are in the top 1% tax bracket.

What income bracket you are in does not define the state of the economy for an individual. Higher income simply better insulates you from the downturns in an economy.

10. The GOP isn’t about smaller government, only corporate deregulations.

No the GOP is against OVER regulation. There is a fine line between be watchful for the citizenry and hampering a companies productivity.

11. Republicans are pro pollution so corporations can make more money.

Kinda like democrats are pro big government so they can keep people poor and dependant?

12. Before Reagan, a family could do well with one income earner in the family.

The faulty premise being of course one should be able to raise a family on one income. It isn't a businesses job to provide for your standard of living. If your job isn't facilitating, find one that does.

13. 3 out of 4 of us are one layoff or healthcare problem away from financial ruin.

true, because 3 out of 4 people are financially illiterate

14. It’s better to pay more taxes now than to let the debt double.

What about our wonderful government makes you think a tax increase would go toward paying down the debt?

15. Trickle down doesn’t work.

Explain how corporations have less money to pay people with and hire will work.

16. The GOP sent jobs overseas. Sure Clinton signed NAFTA, but the GOP are the ones giving tax breaks to companies that leave our shores.

Again companies don't owe American's a standard of living. It is not their role or duty to provide jobs to American's. if a company does not utilize competetive advantages the entire company potentially fails, which leads to many more peopel out of work than just the jobs that got sent overseas.

17. They think they are protecting what is theirs but what they are doing is costing themselves plenty

Where are you going with this? What is it that I am trying to keep you from taking that is ultimatly going to hurt me?

18. When they give up some of their freedoms for safety, they get neither.

What freedoms did you lose under the Bush administration. The same could be said about many leftist issues and your nanny state agenda.

 

[sealybobo]

Hey Bern.. who did you root for in the 04 presidential election. Again, it's fucking hilarious to watch "conservatives" leaping in every direction like rats on a sinking boat.

They say I suck the Democratic tit but then they're the ones trying to distance themselves from the party leader and simultaniously trying to stick to the winning formula.

Lower taxes and smaller government.

And to all the people bitching because I'm so one sided. Let me hear your criticism of the GOP. Not Bush by himself, but the GOP as a whole. Where did the party fail you.

Because they strayed from the conservative message?

So then why should we believe the next ones when they too say they are for smaller government and lower taxes.

I'm for gum drops and lollipops. Big fucking deal.

So the people who say I'm too one sided. Start showing me you get what your party did to this country. Stop saying, "everyone shares the blame", because that proves you are just trying to buy time because you know in time people forget.

We will never forget. Not for at least 8 years. That's 2 Obama presidencies. Get used to us being in charge. Nancy Pelosi, MAJORITY leader. Sounds good.

 

[DiamondDave]

thank you for making your list of faulty assumptions nice and neat for me to pick apart. We'll start with the one above; there not the same thing convenient as you would like that to be



They work for me just fine. What 2% am I in? Tax cuts have worked everytime they are tried. An overall conservative economic policy would be one of small government which by extension should allow taxes to go down which would put more money in people's pockets. Now would that not work for people?



I think most people including the Republicans are fairly capable of understanding basic socio-economic statistics.



You are speaking the non-existant religous right of course. Yet another term that is not a synonym for Republican. Just as their are extremist peacniks do not define the entirety of the democratic party, the religious right does not define the Republican party or conservatism.



Wrong. Free market capitalism does not have predefined groups. It let's the group define themselves. One succeeds or fails by their own ingenuity and motivation in a free market. the free market does not predestine anyone to a certain station in life.



It is not in your financial interest to attain wealth by simply haveing it taken from someone and given to you.



WHOA! Make up your mind Sealy. You said before (and in the very first line of this post) that they are the same thing.



Definately not more conservative than Reagan. I don't recall any tax cuts under Clinton just 'liberal' use of the oval office.



Barely warrants comment, as whatever you think that agenda is most likely incorrect and the equivalent of me saying the democrat agenda is to push us into communism.



What income bracket you are in does not define the state of the economy for an individual. Higher income simply better insulates you from the downturns in an economy.



No the GOP is against OVER regulation. There is a fine line between be watchful for the citizenry and hampering a companies productivity.



Kinda like democrats are pro big government so they can keep people poor and dependant?



The faulty premise being of course one should be able to raise a family on one income. It isn't a businesses job to provide for your standard of living. If your job isn't facilitating, find one that does.



true, because 3 out of 4 people are financially illiterate



What about our wonderful government makes you think a tax increase would go toward paying down the debt?



Explain how corporations have less money to pay people with and hire will work.



Again companies don't owe American's a standard of living. It is not their role or duty to provide jobs to American's. if a company does not utilize competetive advantages the entire company potentially fails, which leads to many more peopel out of work than just the jobs that got sent overseas.



Where are you going with this? What is it that I am trying to keep you from taking that is ultimatly going to hurt me?



What freedoms did you lose under the Bush administration. The same could be said about many leftist issues and your nanny state agenda.

Nice

 

[Bern80]

Not for you.

thanks for answering the question chicken shit. Wanna try again?

 

[AVG-JOE]

It's always funny when people confuse modern-day American Liberals with Classical Liberals (i.e., Libertarians). Somehow they think the dictionary definition of 'Liberal' defines who they are and what they believe in. I used to think they were just being trolls, but they actually believe this lie.

Isn't that what we're doing with this thread and others? Defining current American political values by expressing our ideas? The pigeon-holes of 'liberal' and 'conservative', which few will claim are synonymous with 'democrat' and 'republican', are merely tools for sorting those values and ideas.

Hats off, I say! Bravo!

-Joe