The value of slavery?

[Asclepias]

False equivalence. SS by definition is not the same thing as money invested and used to assist your specific dependants. SS is a required tax. If it was up to me it would be given to the descendants..

Although billed as a tax, it is a forced contribution to a retirement fund administered by government. If you had the choice of contributing to a private fund, any money held on account at your death would accrue to your estate. So, yes, I suppose it is somewhat different because a definite amount of money has been contributed and will never be distributed to the heirs of the deceased. Hence, the government has stolen some amount of money from the citizens.
Reparations for descendants of slaves features no specific fund designated for that dispersal. So, you have no fund designated for that purpose. Your solution is to force all current taxpayers to make some contrition to your fund. OK, you have identified a source for your reparations. The question remains: who should receive reparations and how much? What data do you propose to use to calculate the amount to be dispersed?

Key word is "forced". Therefore its out of your control just like a tax.
Reparations were paid to the Japanese and there was no problem creating a fund. Reparations were paid to some of the descendants of Rosewood and again there was no issue creating a fund. Lack of motivation to do a task is not an acceptable reason as to why it shouldnt be done. I already told you who should get the funds. How much is still to be determined. First there would need to be an agreement to even explore the topic. Whites have an almost fanatical opposition to even do that.

I hadn't had time to get your definition of who, but have responded since then. I started this thread to discuss the who should pay, who should get, and how much. You have now identified who should pay: taxpayers; who should receive: all who identify and can prove being of slave-descended stock. "In the billions" may be true, but how would you derive the amount paid to each individual? What basis would you use to calculate that amount?

I said in the trillions. I would leave those decisions on "how much" etc up to the Black people that are currently fighting for reparations as they have all the data. I'm good with whatever they decide. The main point is that my people could then move on instead of wasting time trying to convince whites to like them. Once empowered economically they could sink or swim on their own.

Sorry...trillions. Dude, I thought you were at the forefront of this fight, you are pretty passionate.
Now you bring up a new facet of your proposal. How would the repayment of reparations empower the black community to move on and change their communities when AA (Affirmative Action), and other programs have not?

Not quite understanding your question? You do realize AA mostly benefits whites and the little AA Blacks do get has been a benefit

 

[TNHarley]

What about the descendents of slaves that were enslaved by blacks? Who pays them?

The vast majority of Black slave owners were that in name only. They bought their family members so whites couldnt claim them. Irregardless they or their ancestors were owned by whites prior to the Black slave owner so they would still get paid.

Do the people that sold them have to pay anything? They have some responsibility, dont they?

 

[Asclepias]

What about the descendents of slaves that were enslaved by blacks? Who pays them?

The vast majority of Black slave owners were that in name only. They bought their family members so whites couldnt claim them. Irregardless they or their ancestors were owned by whites prior to the Black slave owner so they would still get paid.

Do the people that sold them have to pay anything? They have some responsibility, dont they?

Nope. This is a debt the country owes to Blacks. Its not an individual thing.

 

[gallantwarrior]

And...57 pages into this thread and I'm still waiting for some solid numbers. Who should be paid how much? Using current pay scales? Using pay scales prevalent during the time that slaves were working? We already know that A. believes that all current taxpayers should be made to contribute to paying retribution, regardless of their ancestors' place of origin, how or when they arrived in the US. OK, we have a source. But who should be paid reparations? All people of color, regardless of whether they can prove their heritage having derived from slaves held in the US? Any black person currently residing here, regardless of when their ancestors arrived? And what percentage of their bloodline should derive from blacks, African or otherwise, would entitle them to reparations?

I already posted my personal thoughts of it being at least in the trillions. I also said people that ID as Black americans and can prove they are descendants of the enslaved should receive reparations.

OK. So, those who identify as black and can prove their descendant status are to be designated recipients. Good. What percentage of blood relation would you require, or would that be anyone who can prove any relation? Even those claiming to be Alaskan Natives must have a certain percentage of blood before being granted status as Natives and thus receive benefits reserved for them.
“’Native’ means a citizen of the United States who is a person of one-fourth degree or more Alaska Indian (including Tsimshian Indians not enrolled in the Metlakatla Indian Community) Eskimo, or Aleut blood, or combination thereof. The term includes any Natives as so defined either or both of whose adoptive parents are not Natives. It also includes, in the absence of proof of a minimum blood quantum, any citizen of the United States who is regarded as an Alaska Native by the Native village or Native group of which he claims to be a member and whose father or mother is (or, if deceased, was) regarded as Native by any village or group.”
http://www.sealaskaheritage.org/sites/default/files/MMPAFinalReport.pdf

Nope. Just those that ID as Black, can prove their ancestors were enslaved and have at least 15%-20% Black DNA. You dont claim your Blackness you get nothing.

But only ancestors enslaved in the US?
So, only those identifying as black and able to provide at least 15%-20% black DNA, and able to prove ancestors having been enslaved (in the US) would qualify for reparations payments. That all seems fair enough.

Thats correct. Since the US is the one paying it makes zero sense to try and add other countries to the mix.

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

 

[gallantwarrior]

Although billed as a tax, it is a forced contribution to a retirement fund administered by government. If you had the choice of contributing to a private fund, any money held on account at your death would accrue to your estate. So, yes, I suppose it is somewhat different because a definite amount of money has been contributed and will never be distributed to the heirs of the deceased. Hence, the government has stolen some amount of money from the citizens.
Reparations for descendants of slaves features no specific fund designated for that dispersal. So, you have no fund designated for that purpose. Your solution is to force all current taxpayers to make some contrition to your fund. OK, you have identified a source for your reparations. The question remains: who should receive reparations and how much? What data do you propose to use to calculate the amount to be dispersed?

Key word is "forced". Therefore its out of your control just like a tax.
Reparations were paid to the Japanese and there was no problem creating a fund. Reparations were paid to some of the descendants of Rosewood and again there was no issue creating a fund. Lack of motivation to do a task is not an acceptable reason as to why it shouldnt be done. I already told you who should get the funds. How much is still to be determined. First there would need to be an agreement to even explore the topic. Whites have an almost fanatical opposition to even do that.

I hadn't had time to get your definition of who, but have responded since then. I started this thread to discuss the who should pay, who should get, and how much. You have now identified who should pay: taxpayers; who should receive: all who identify and can prove being of slave-descended stock. "In the billions" may be true, but how would you derive the amount paid to each individual? What basis would you use to calculate that amount?

I said in the trillions. I would leave those decisions on "how much" etc up to the Black people that are currently fighting for reparations as they have all the data. I'm good with whatever they decide. The main point is that my people could then move on instead of wasting time trying to convince whites to like them. Once empowered economically they could sink or swim on their own.

Sorry...trillions. Dude, I thought you were at the forefront of this fight, you are pretty passionate.
Now you bring up a new facet of your proposal. How would the repayment of reparations empower the black community to move on and change their communities when AA (Affirmative Action), and other programs have not?

Not quite understanding your question? You do realize AA mostly benefits whites and the little AA Blacks do get has been a benefit

AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) or AA (Affirmative Action)? If we're talking about Affirmative Action, you might want to clarify how more whites have benefited than people of color. I may have missed something along the way. Thanks.

 

[gallantwarrior]

What about the descendents of slaves that were enslaved by blacks? Who pays them?

The vast majority of Black slave owners were that in name only. They bought their family members so whites couldnt claim them. Irregardless they or their ancestors were owned by whites prior to the Black slave owner so they would still get paid.

Do the people that sold them have to pay anything? They have some responsibility, dont they?

Nope. This is a debt the country owes to Blacks. Its not an individual thing.

How does the country owe this "debt"?

 

[TNHarley]

What about the descendents of slaves that were enslaved by blacks? Who pays them?

The vast majority of Black slave owners were that in name only. They bought their family members so whites couldnt claim them. Irregardless they or their ancestors were owned by whites prior to the Black slave owner so they would still get paid.

Do the people that sold them have to pay anything? They have some responsibility, dont they?

Nope. This is a debt the country owes to Blacks. Its not an individual thing.

how

 

[Asclepias]

I already posted my personal thoughts of it being at least in the trillions. I also said people that ID as Black americans and can prove they are descendants of the enslaved should receive reparations.

OK. So, those who identify as black and can prove their descendant status are to be designated recipients. Good. What percentage of blood relation would you require, or would that be anyone who can prove any relation? Even those claiming to be Alaskan Natives must have a certain percentage of blood before being granted status as Natives and thus receive benefits reserved for them.
“’Native’ means a citizen of the United States who is a person of one-fourth degree or more Alaska Indian (including Tsimshian Indians not enrolled in the Metlakatla Indian Community) Eskimo, or Aleut blood, or combination thereof. The term includes any Natives as so defined either or both of whose adoptive parents are not Natives. It also includes, in the absence of proof of a minimum blood quantum, any citizen of the United States who is regarded as an Alaska Native by the Native village or Native group of which he claims to be a member and whose father or mother is (or, if deceased, was) regarded as Native by any village or group.”
http://www.sealaskaheritage.org/sites/default/files/MMPAFinalReport.pdf

Nope. Just those that ID as Black, can prove their ancestors were enslaved and have at least 15%-20% Black DNA. You dont claim your Blackness you get nothing.

But only ancestors enslaved in the US?
So, only those identifying as black and able to provide at least 15%-20% black DNA, and able to prove ancestors having been enslaved (in the US) would qualify for reparations payments. That all seems fair enough.

Thats correct. Since the US is the one paying it makes zero sense to try and add other countries to the mix.

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

 

[Asclepias]

What about the descendents of slaves that were enslaved by blacks? Who pays them?

The vast majority of Black slave owners were that in name only. They bought their family members so whites couldnt claim them. Irregardless they or their ancestors were owned by whites prior to the Black slave owner so they would still get paid.

Do the people that sold them have to pay anything? They have some responsibility, dont they?

Nope. This is a debt the country owes to Blacks. Its not an individual thing.

How does the country owe this "debt"?

What do you mean? You do realize the country is the one that allowed chattel slavery right?

 

[TNHarley]

What about the descendents of slaves that were enslaved by blacks? Who pays them?

The vast majority of Black slave owners were that in name only. They bought their family members so whites couldnt claim them. Irregardless they or their ancestors were owned by whites prior to the Black slave owner so they would still get paid.

Do the people that sold them have to pay anything? They have some responsibility, dont they?

Nope. This is a debt the country owes to Blacks. Its not an individual thing.

How does the country owe this "debt"?

What do you mean? You do realize the country is the one that allowed chattel slavery right?

Why should i punished for it though? I had nothing to do with it. I was born in 1986.

 

[Asclepias]

The vast majority of Black slave owners were that in name only. They bought their family members so whites couldnt claim them. Irregardless they or their ancestors were owned by whites prior to the Black slave owner so they would still get paid.

Do the people that sold them have to pay anything? They have some responsibility, dont they?

Nope. This is a debt the country owes to Blacks. Its not an individual thing.

How does the country owe this "debt"?

What do you mean? You do realize the country is the one that allowed chattel slavery right?

Why should i punished for it though? I had nothing to do with it. I was born in 1986.

Because you are a part of the US? I had nothing to do with it either and my taxes would also go to pay for any lump sum distribution.

 

[TNHarley]

Do the people that sold them have to pay anything? They have some responsibility, dont they?

Nope. This is a debt the country owes to Blacks. Its not an individual thing.

How does the country owe this "debt"?

What do you mean? You do realize the country is the one that allowed chattel slavery right?

Why should i punished for it though? I had nothing to do with it. I was born in 1986.

Because you are a part of the US? I had nothing to do with it either and my taxes would also go to pay for any lump sum distribution.

And?

 

[Asclepias]

Nope. This is a debt the country owes to Blacks. Its not an individual thing.

How does the country owe this "debt"?

What do you mean? You do realize the country is the one that allowed chattel slavery right?

Why should i punished for it though? I had nothing to do with it. I was born in 1986.

Because you are a part of the US? I had nothing to do with it either and my taxes would also go to pay for any lump sum distribution.

And?

and what?

 

[TNHarley]

How does the country owe this "debt"?

What do you mean? You do realize the country is the one that allowed chattel slavery right?

Why should i punished for it though? I had nothing to do with it. I was born in 1986.

Because you are a part of the US? I had nothing to do with it either and my taxes would also go to pay for any lump sum distribution.

And?

and what?

And what does my citizenship have to do with paying people back that have been dead for generations when i had nothing to do with it?
Doesnt seem logical. It also seems tyrannical.
Are you a tyrant?

 

[there4eyeM]

All the soldiers who died in the American Civil War.
The error of slavery cost America dear.
Debt paid.

To repeat. The Nation owes no debt for the error that was slavery; it paid dearly for that horrible mistake. If there be others who should pay, the case should be presented.

 

[Asclepias]

What do you mean? You do realize the country is the one that allowed chattel slavery right?

Why should i punished for it though? I had nothing to do with it. I was born in 1986.

Because you are a part of the US? I had nothing to do with it either and my taxes would also go to pay for any lump sum distribution.

And?

and what?

And what does my citizenship have to do with paying people back that have been dead for generations when i had nothing to do with it?
Doesnt seem logical. It also seems tyrannical.
Are you a tyrant?

Because like I said its a debt the US owes for allowing chattel slavery to exist. Thats extremely logical. What part of my answer confused you?

 

[TNHarley]

Why should i punished for it though? I had nothing to do with it. I was born in 1986.

Because you are a part of the US? I had nothing to do with it either and my taxes would also go to pay for any lump sum distribution.

And?

and what?

And what does my citizenship have to do with paying people back that have been dead for generations when i had nothing to do with it?
Doesnt seem logical. It also seems tyrannical.
Are you a tyrant?

Because like I said its a debt the US owes for allowing chattel slavery to exist. Thats extremely logical. What part of my answer confused you?

"The US owes" them over 150 years ago. Not now.
I am sure that would violate all statutes of limitations on the planet.

 

[Asclepias]

Because you are a part of the US? I had nothing to do with it either and my taxes would also go to pay for any lump sum distribution.

And?

and what?

And what does my citizenship have to do with paying people back that have been dead for generations when i had nothing to do with it?
Doesnt seem logical. It also seems tyrannical.
Are you a tyrant?

Because like I said its a debt the US owes for allowing chattel slavery to exist. Thats extremely logical. What part of my answer confused you?

"The US owes" them over 150 years ago. Not now.
I am sure that would violate all statutes of limitations on the planet.

That doesnt even make sense. Time doesnt nullify the debt.

 

[TNHarley]

And?

and what?

And what does my citizenship have to do with paying people back that have been dead for generations when i had nothing to do with it?
Doesnt seem logical. It also seems tyrannical.
Are you a tyrant?

Because like I said its a debt the US owes for allowing chattel slavery to exist. Thats extremely logical. What part of my answer confused you?

"The US owes" them over 150 years ago. Not now.
I am sure that would violate all statutes of limitations on the planet.

That doesnt even make sense. Time doesnt nullify the debt.

If i die, are my kids forced to pay for my debts? Of course not. It comes out of my estate.
How many slave holding descendents still control the original estate? I wouldnt think it is many.
So why should this be different? Basically, you just want special rights.

 

[Asclepias]

and what?

And what does my citizenship have to do with paying people back that have been dead for generations when i had nothing to do with it?
Doesnt seem logical. It also seems tyrannical.
Are you a tyrant?

Because like I said its a debt the US owes for allowing chattel slavery to exist. Thats extremely logical. What part of my answer confused you?

"The US owes" them over 150 years ago. Not now.
I am sure that would violate all statutes of limitations on the planet.

That doesnt even make sense. Time doesnt nullify the debt.

If i die, are my kids forced to pay for my debts? Of course not. It comes out of my estate.
How many slave holding descendents still control the original estate? I wouldnt think it is many.
So why should this be different? Basically, you just want special rights.

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.