The value of slavery?

[Asclepias]

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

How would it do that? You are talking about reparations paid to individuals right?

Yes. Money paid to individuals is still counted as wealth. If most Black people are millionaires the wealth gap goes away.

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

 

[Asclepias]

What would you estimate the value of slavery in the US to have been?
Specifically, if reparations were to be made for slavery, how much would you estimate the value of lost wages plus interest to be? Please be specific. What pay scale would you propose be used, and what amount of interest?
Who would you propose be paid reparations for slavery in the US?
And, who would you propose pay into the fund to be dispersed to those deemed recipients of said reparations?

No one today was a slave. To hell with them.

Your reading comprehension tests must have all been disasters? This is about the descendants of the enslaved.

To hell with them too. We don't owe you anything.

You dont owe me anything nor does welfare check cover what I am talking about. The US owes.

 

[IM2]

A Long History of Affirmative Action - For Whites

Many middle-class white people, especially those of us from the suburbs, like to think that we got to where we are today by virtue of our merit - hard work, intelligence, pluck, and maybe a little luck. And while we may be sympathetic to the plight of others, we close down when we hear the words "affirmative action" or "racial preferences." We worked hard, we made it on our own, the thinking goes, why don't 'they'? After all, the Civil Rights Act was enacted almost 40 years ago.

Early Racial Preferences

We all know the old history, but it's still worth reminding ourselves of its scale and scope. Affirmative action in the American "workplace" first began in the late 17th century when European indentured servants - the original source of unfree labor on the new tobacco plantations of Virginia and Maryland - were replaced by African slaves. In exchange for their support and their policing of the growing slave population, lower-class Europeans won new rights, entitlements, and opportunities from the planter elite.

White Americans were also given a head start with the help of the U.S. Army. The 1830 Indian Removal Act, for example, forcibly relocated Cherokee, Creeks and other eastern Indians to west of the Mississippi River to make room for white settlers. The 1862 Homestead Act followed suit, giving away millions of acres of what had been Indian Territory west of the Mississippi. Ultimately, 270 million acres, or 10% of the total land area of the United States, was converted to private hands, overwhelmingly white, under Homestead Act provisions.

The 1790 Naturalization Act permitted only "free white persons" to become naturalized citizens, thus opening the doors to European immigrants but not others. Only citizens could vote, serve on juries, hold office, and in some cases, even hold property. In this century, Alien Land Laws passed in California and other states, reserved farm land for white growers by preventing Asian immigrants, ineligible to become citizens, from owning or leasing land. Immigration restrictions further limited opportunities for nonwhite groups. Racial barriers to naturalized U.S. citizenship weren't removed until the McCarran-Walter Act in 1952, and white racial preferences in immigration remained until 1965.

In the South, the federal government never followed through on General Sherman's Civil War plan to divide up plantations and give each freed slave "40 acres and a mule" as reparations. Only once was monetary compensation made for slavery, in Washington, D.C. There, government officials paid up to $300 per slave upon emancipation - not to the slaves, but to local slaveholders as compensation for loss of property.

When slavery ended, its legacy lived on not only in the impoverished condition of Black people but in the wealth and prosperity that accrued to white slaveowners and their descendents. Economists who try to place a dollar value on how much white Americans have profited from 200 years of unpaid slave labor, including interest, begin their estimates at $1 trillion.

Jim Crow laws, instituted in the late 19th and early 20th century and not overturned in many states until the 1960s, reserved the best jobs, neighborhoods, schools and hospitals for white people.

The Advantages Grow, Generation to Generation

The landmark Social Security Act of 1935 provided a safety net for millions of workers, guaranteeing them an income after retirement. But the act specifically excluded two occupations: agricultural workers and domestic servants, who were predominately African American, Mexican, and Asian. As low-income workers, they also had the least opportunity to save for their retirement. They couldn't pass wealth on to their children. Just the opposite. Their children had to support them.

Like Social Security, the 1935 Wagner Act helped establish an important new right for white people. By granting unions the power of collective bargaining, it helped millions of white workers gain entry into the middle class over the next 30 years. But the Wagner Act permitted unions to exclude non-whites and deny them access to better paid jobs and union protections and benefits such as health care, job security, and pensions.

But it was another racialized New Deal program, the Federal Housing Administration, that helped generate much of the wealth that so many white families enjoy today. These revolutionary programs made it possible for millions of average white Americans - but not others - to own a home for the first time. The government set up a national neighborhood appraisal system, explicitly tying mortgage eligibility to race. Integrated communities were ipso facto deemed a financial risk and made ineligible for home loans, a policy known today as "redlining." Between 1934 and 1962, the federal government backed $120 billion of home loans. More than 98% went to whites.

Reaping the Rewards of Racial Preference

One result of the generations of preferential treatment for whites is that a typical white family today has on average eight times the assets, or net worth, of a typical African American family, according to economist Edward Wolff. Even when families of the same income are compared, white families have more than twice the wealth of Black families. Much of that wealth difference can be attributed to the value of one's home, and how much one inherited from parents.

But a family's net worth is not simply the finish line, it's also the starting point for the next generation. Those with wealth pass their assets on to their children - by financing a college education, lending a hand during hard times, or assisting with the down payment for a home. Some economists estimate that up to 80 percent of lifetime wealth accumulation depends on these intergenerational transfers. White advantage is passed down, from parent to child to grand-child. As a result, the racial wealth gap - and the head start enjoyed by whites - appears to have grown since the civil rights days.

In 1865, just after Emancipation, it is not surprising that African Americans owned 0.5 percent of the total worth of the United States. But by 1990, a full 135 years after the abolition of slavery, Black Americans still possessed only a meager 1 percent of national wealth.

Rather than recognize how "racial preferences" have tilted the playing field and given us a head start in life, many whites continue to believe that race does not affect our lives. Instead, we chastise others for not achieving what we have; we even invert the situation and accuse non-whites of using "the race card" to advance themselves.

RACE - The Power of an Illusion | White Advantage

Over 300 years of white AA and government handouts. And those of you here today have benefitted from many of the more recent forms. We paid income taxes also but our money went to pay for whites to get those government home loans or other programs we were denied. It's time whites faced the damn truth. What you don't believe is not truth. What you don't think should happen isn't the truth. We paid into a system that only you benefitted from. For that alone we are owed.

 

[IM2]

Native Americans were not used as slaves after the early 1600's because they could run away and whites could not catch them.

 

[MizMolly]

A Long History of Affirmative Action - For Whites

Many middle-class white people, especially those of us from the suburbs, like to think that we got to where we are today by virtue of our merit - hard work, intelligence, pluck, and maybe a little luck. And while we may be sympathetic to the plight of others, we close down when we hear the words "affirmative action" or "racial preferences." We worked hard, we made it on our own, the thinking goes, why don't 'they'? After all, the Civil Rights Act was enacted almost 40 years ago.

Early Racial Preferences

We all know the old history, but it's still worth reminding ourselves of its scale and scope. Affirmative action in the American "workplace" first began in the late 17th century when European indentured servants - the original source of unfree labor on the new tobacco plantations of Virginia and Maryland - were replaced by African slaves. In exchange for their support and their policing of the growing slave population, lower-class Europeans won new rights, entitlements, and opportunities from the planter elite.

White Americans were also given a head start with the help of the U.S. Army. The 1830 Indian Removal Act, for example, forcibly relocated Cherokee, Creeks and other eastern Indians to west of the Mississippi River to make room for white settlers. The 1862 Homestead Act followed suit, giving away millions of acres of what had been Indian Territory west of the Mississippi. Ultimately, 270 million acres, or 10% of the total land area of the United States, was converted to private hands, overwhelmingly white, under Homestead Act provisions.

The 1790 Naturalization Act permitted only "free white persons" to become naturalized citizens, thus opening the doors to European immigrants but not others. Only citizens could vote, serve on juries, hold office, and in some cases, even hold property. In this century, Alien Land Laws passed in California and other states, reserved farm land for white growers by preventing Asian immigrants, ineligible to become citizens, from owning or leasing land. Immigration restrictions further limited opportunities for nonwhite groups. Racial barriers to naturalized U.S. citizenship weren't removed until the McCarran-Walter Act in 1952, and white racial preferences in immigration remained until 1965.

In the South, the federal government never followed through on General Sherman's Civil War plan to divide up plantations and give each freed slave "40 acres and a mule" as reparations. Only once was monetary compensation made for slavery, in Washington, D.C. There, government officials paid up to $300 per slave upon emancipation - not to the slaves, but to local slaveholders as compensation for loss of property.

When slavery ended, its legacy lived on not only in the impoverished condition of Black people but in the wealth and prosperity that accrued to white slaveowners and their descendents. Economists who try to place a dollar value on how much white Americans have profited from 200 years of unpaid slave labor, including interest, begin their estimates at $1 trillion.

Jim Crow laws, instituted in the late 19th and early 20th century and not overturned in many states until the 1960s, reserved the best jobs, neighborhoods, schools and hospitals for white people.

The Advantages Grow, Generation to Generation

The landmark Social Security Act of 1935 provided a safety net for millions of workers, guaranteeing them an income after retirement. But the act specifically excluded two occupations: agricultural workers and domestic servants, who were predominately African American, Mexican, and Asian. As low-income workers, they also had the least opportunity to save for their retirement. They couldn't pass wealth on to their children. Just the opposite. Their children had to support them.

Like Social Security, the 1935 Wagner Act helped establish an important new right for white people. By granting unions the power of collective bargaining, it helped millions of white workers gain entry into the middle class over the next 30 years. But the Wagner Act permitted unions to exclude non-whites and deny them access to better paid jobs and union protections and benefits such as health care, job security, and pensions.

But it was another racialized New Deal program, the Federal Housing Administration, that helped generate much of the wealth that so many white families enjoy today. These revolutionary programs made it possible for millions of average white Americans - but not others - to own a home for the first time. The government set up a national neighborhood appraisal system, explicitly tying mortgage eligibility to race. Integrated communities were ipso facto deemed a financial risk and made ineligible for home loans, a policy known today as "redlining." Between 1934 and 1962, the federal government backed $120 billion of home loans. More than 98% went to whites.

Reaping the Rewards of Racial Preference

One result of the generations of preferential treatment for whites is that a typical white family today has on average eight times the assets, or net worth, of a typical African American family, according to economist Edward Wolff. Even when families of the same income are compared, white families have more than twice the wealth of Black families. Much of that wealth difference can be attributed to the value of one's home, and how much one inherited from parents.

But a family's net worth is not simply the finish line, it's also the starting point for the next generation. Those with wealth pass their assets on to their children - by financing a college education, lending a hand during hard times, or assisting with the down payment for a home. Some economists estimate that up to 80 percent of lifetime wealth accumulation depends on these intergenerational transfers. White advantage is passed down, from parent to child to grand-child. As a result, the racial wealth gap - and the head start enjoyed by whites - appears to have grown since the civil rights days.

In 1865, just after Emancipation, it is not surprising that African Americans owned 0.5 percent of the total worth of the United States. But by 1990, a full 135 years after the abolition of slavery, Black Americans still possessed only a meager 1 percent of national wealth.

Rather than recognize how "racial preferences" have tilted the playing field and given us a head start in life, many whites continue to believe that race does not affect our lives. Instead, we chastise others for not achieving what we have; we even invert the situation and accuse non-whites of using "the race card" to advance themselves.

RACE - The Power of an Illusion | White Advantage

Over 300 years of white AA and government handouts. And those of you here today have benefitted from many of the more recent forms. We paid income taxes also but our money went to pay for whites to get those government home loans or other programs we were denied. It's time whites faced the damn truth. What you don't believe is not truth. What you don't think should happen isn't the truth. We paid into a system that only you benefitted from. For that alone we are owed.

You did not, nor anyone else pay taxes for me to get a home loan.

 

[Coyote]

And what does my citizenship have to do with paying people back that have been dead for generations when i had nothing to do with it?
Doesnt seem logical. It also seems tyrannical.
Are you a tyrant?

Because like I said its a debt the US owes for allowing chattel slavery to exist. Thats extremely logical. What part of my answer confused you?

"The US owes" them over 150 years ago. Not now.
I am sure that would violate all statutes of limitations on the planet.

That doesnt even make sense. Time doesnt nullify the debt.

If i die, are my kids forced to pay for my debts? Of course not. It comes out of my estate.
How many slave holding descendents still control the original estate? I wouldnt think it is many.
So why should this be different? Basically, you just want special rights.

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.

I don’t think descendents are owed anything, they were not the ones against whom the atrocity was committed. The idea of reparations for descendents of anything is a huge can of worms.

 

[Coyote]

Truth is, reparations were already provided for freed slaves immediately following the conclusion of the Civil War. A large swath of real estate was confiscated from Southern landowners and earmarked for distribution to any freed slave who applied for a designated portion thereof. The apportioned land, and subsequent mule, was intended for the freed slave to establish himself and provide for his family. So, the opportunity for economic stability was available. Since the original freed slaves were already provided opportunity to claim some portion of real property "provided" by those assumed to have owned slaves, there is no need to pay descendants of slaves any amount of money, regardless of source.

"Today, we commonly use the phrase "40 acres and a mule," but few of us have read the Order itself. Three of its parts are relevant here. Section one bears repeating in full: "The islands from Charleston, south, the abandoned rice fields along the rivers for thirty miles back from the sea, and the country bordering the St. Johns river, Florida, are reserved and set apart for the settlement of the negroes [sic] now made free by the acts of war and the proclamation of the President of the United States."

Section two specifies that these new communities, moreover, would be governed entirely by black people themselves: " … on the islands, and in the settlements hereafter to be established, no white person whatever, unless military officers and soldiers detailed for duty, will be permitted to reside; and the sole and exclusive management of affairs will be left to the freed people themselves … By the laws of war, and orders of the President of the United States, the negro [sic] is free and must be dealt with as such."

Finally, section three specifies the allocation of land: " … each family shall have a plot of not more than (40) acres of tillable ground, and when it borders on some water channel, with not more than 800 feet water front, in the possession of which land the military authorities will afford them protection, until such time as they can protect themselves, or until Congress shall regulate their title."

With this Order, 400,000 acres of land — "a strip of coastline stretching from Charleston, South Carolina, to the St. John's River in Florida, including Georgia's Sea Islands and the mainland thirty miles in from the coast," as Barton Myers reports — would be redistributed to the newly freed slaves. The extent of this Order and its larger implications are mind-boggling, actually."
https://www.theroot.com/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule-1790894780

The one problem with that is in reality very few got the acres and mules in the end.

 

[Coyote]

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

How would it do that? You are talking about reparations paid to individuals right?

Yes. Money paid to individuals is still counted as wealth. If most Black people are millionaires the wealth gap goes away.

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

But only ancestors enslaved in the US?
So, only those identifying as black and able to provide at least 15%-20% black DNA, and able to prove ancestors having been enslaved (in the US) would qualify for reparations payments. That all seems fair enough.

Thats correct. Since the US is the one paying it makes zero sense to try and add other countries to the mix.

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

 

[Asclepias]

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

How would it do that? You are talking about reparations paid to individuals right?

Yes. Money paid to individuals is still counted as wealth. If most Black people are millionaires the wealth gap goes away.

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Thats correct. Since the US is the one paying it makes zero sense to try and add other countries to the mix.

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

 

[Asclepias]

Because like I said its a debt the US owes for allowing chattel slavery to exist. Thats extremely logical. What part of my answer confused you?

"The US owes" them over 150 years ago. Not now.
I am sure that would violate all statutes of limitations on the planet.

That doesnt even make sense. Time doesnt nullify the debt.

If i die, are my kids forced to pay for my debts? Of course not. It comes out of my estate.
How many slave holding descendents still control the original estate? I wouldnt think it is many.
So why should this be different? Basically, you just want special rights.

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.

I don’t think descendents are owed anything, they were not the ones against whom the atrocity was committed. The idea of reparations for descendents of anything is a huge can of worms.

I do think descendants are owed which is exactly what reparations is about. The monetary value that should have been awarded to their ancestors never was awarded. Therefore they were unable to pay for a better life for their children/descendants. Plenty of things are a can of worms. That doesnt mean you dont address and solve it. Kicking the can of worms down the road is only going cause more problems. What is the cost of racial animosity? What is that animosity costing the US? The US should pay the debt. Its the only meaningful action available and curiously the same action whites are unanimously against. Whites dont honestly want peace, equality, and justice. They want to be comfortably ahead in the game where their ancestors granted them a 3 century head start.

 

[Montrovant]

How would it do that? You are talking about reparations paid to individuals right?

Yes. Money paid to individuals is still counted as wealth. If most Black people are millionaires the wealth gap goes away.

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

There probably isn't a single person living who doesn't have ancestors who committed 'crimes' which caused others to suffer. Whether or not they have profited from the crimes of their ancestors is debatable, of course.

Is there a point at which reparations for slavery would no longer be valid, because too much time/too many generations would have passed? It's currently about 5 generations since the abolition of slavery, if you judge a generation by 30-year increments. At this point, you would have people getting reparations for things done to their great-great-great grandparents. Perhaps that is perfectly acceptable. Would it be fine after 10 generations? 20? Is the time limit (if any) the same for any crimes worthy of reparations, or is it different for each circumstance?

Lottery winners would be a similar situation in which individuals come into a large sum of money suddenly. I assume that is the comparison Coyote was making.

There is a consensus in the black community about how reparations would be used? There are something like 40-50 million blacks living in the US, how many would you say have agreed on how reparations given to individuals would be spent?

 

[Coyote]

How would it do that? You are talking about reparations paid to individuals right?

Yes. Money paid to individuals is still counted as wealth. If most Black people are millionaires the wealth gap goes away.

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Okay! We agree again!
Now, in all fairness, why should every single taxpayer, regardless of race, gender, or other determining characteristic, be required to pay into this fund? The federal government did not hold slaves, per se. Individuals resident in various states composing the federation held slaves. Different factions representing various states in the federal structure supported and opposed slavery.
My proposal would be that all persons who can be proved to have ancestors who held slaves in this country should be required to pay into the reparations fund proportionate to the number of slaves they owned during the period prior to emancipation. This fund should be then equally divided among those claiming legitimate right to make said claim.
You identified a fair definition of those who can claim reparations. I have defined a fair definition of those who should be required to pay into the fund used to pay those reparations. The remaining element is to identify the data to be used to determine the amount to be paid. Current rates and benefits, or rates and benefits considered for non-slaves at the time those enslaved were laboring?

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

 

[Asclepias]

Yes. Money paid to individuals is still counted as wealth. If most Black people are millionaires the wealth gap goes away.

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

There probably isn't a single person living who doesn't have ancestors who committed 'crimes' which caused others to suffer. Whether or not they have profited from the crimes of their ancestors is debatable, of course.

Is there a point at which reparations for slavery would no longer be valid, because too much time/too many generations would have passed? It's currently about 5 generations since the abolition of slavery, if you judge a generation by 30-year increments. At this point, you would have people getting reparations for things done to their great-great-great grandparents. Perhaps that is perfectly acceptable. Would it be fine after 10 generations? 20? Is the time limit (if any) the same for any crimes worthy of reparations, or is it different for each circumstance?

Lottery winners would be a similar situation in which individuals come into a large sum of money suddenly. I assume that is the comparison Coyote was making.

There is a consensus in the black community about how reparations would be used? There are something like 40-50 million blacks living in the US, how many would you say have agreed on how reparations given to individuals would be spent?

I think thats a false equivalency. The closest any other group of people come to experiencing the horrors and atrocities committed by the US are probably the NA's. They are currently getting some reparations. Blacks experienced the atrocity and horrors of slavery for multiple generations without pay.

No. I dont see there being a point where reparations would be invalid. Its pretty much coded in the word reparations. Nowhere is a time limit specified. I know thats what most whites would like. For Blacks to pretend it never happened. The problem is only going to get worse and larger with time. Whites should learn that its not clever or cool to welch on their debts. Whites in the US profited from slavery either directly or indirectly and now theyre against making things right.

Pretty much. We understand as a group that the only way to fight racism is to invest in our own communities. I have never taken an official count. It doesnt work that way with us.

 

[IM2]

Because like I said its a debt the US owes for allowing chattel slavery to exist. Thats extremely logical. What part of my answer confused you?

"The US owes" them over 150 years ago. Not now.
I am sure that would violate all statutes of limitations on the planet.

That doesnt even make sense. Time doesnt nullify the debt.

If i die, are my kids forced to pay for my debts? Of course not. It comes out of my estate.
How many slave holding descendents still control the original estate? I wouldnt think it is many.
So why should this be different? Basically, you just want special rights.

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.

I don’t think descendents are owed anything, they were not the ones against whom the atrocity was committed. The idea of reparations for descendents of anything is a huge can of worms.

So the descendants of the Native Americans awarded 3.2 billion in Cobell v. Salazar a couple of years ago for what happened because of the Dawes Act didn't deserve reparations.

Let me make this short and sweet. White folks opinion is not the law. There is no statute of limitations oh human tights violations.. So what you whites here think, you can think it, but legally we can take a case to court for slavery reparations and as descendants of slaves we can receive reparations. However since you whites want to keep talking stupid, we can take a case to curt for human rights violations against blacks that covers the entirety of US history naming numerous violations whereby those like you cannot argue about how we aren't eligible for reparations. So as we keep beating this dead horse because whites do not want to be penalized for committing continuing human rights violations, you might want to rethink your argument.

 

[Asclepias]

Yes. Money paid to individuals is still counted as wealth. If most Black people are millionaires the wealth gap goes away.

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

 

[Coyote]

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

I think you severely underate human nature here. People are individuals first. That is why communism was such a flop, it ignored the "what is in it for me" aspect.

 

[Asclepias]

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

I think you severely underate human nature here. People are individuals first. That is why communism was such a flop, it ignored the "what is in it for me" aspect.

No. People (at least Black people) are by nature social animals. They go crazy without human companionship. Thats why solitary confinement is used as a punishment. Like I was saying. Its not like we are guessing about this. We have proof because we did it in the past.

https://www.theroot.com/the-other-black-wall-streets-1823010812


Communism was massively successful. Its the basis of the first civilizations. Without it the human species would not have survived.

 

[Coyote]

What makes you think it would be reinvested into
So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

Alot of Blacks understand the fallacy of thinking individually in this country. If the Black population here in the US knew most Blacks were getting a large sum of money then they would agree to start working on the community. We know this because this is how we built successful communities in the past.

I think you severely underate human nature here. People are individuals first. That is why communism was such a flop, it ignored the "what is in it for me" aspect.

No. People (at least Black people) are by nature social animals. They go crazy without human companionship. Thats why solitary confinement is used as a punishment. Like I was saying. Its not like we are guessing about this. We have proof because we did it in the past.

https://www.theroot.com/the-other-black-wall-streets-1823010812


Communism was massively successful. Its the basis of the first civilizations. Without it humans would not have survived.

I dont think black people are sny different then white people in that respect.

 

[IM2]

Yes. Money paid to individuals is still counted as wealth. If most Black people are millionaires the wealth gap goes away.

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Primarily because the US federal government allowed chattel slavery to legally exist in direct violation of its own declaration that every man was entitled to liberty. You brought up an excellent suggestion regarding forcing the families that owned slaves to contribute but to me that would be a separate issue and not nearly enough to actually realize the amount of money we are talking here. It would just remain a debt owed and never be paid simply because they cant afford it.

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

Lottery is an example of what people do when the win large sums of money. Same with rhose who got tax rebates as stimulus. People think individually first, family second..and then tribe or community. I dont see why this would be any different.

And why are you so concerned with what blacks do with the money? Whites here need to stop thinking they are experts on blacks. Just because whites do things a certain way doesn't mean everybody else will. A is right about the fact reparations have been discussed extensively and for years in the black communiy. John Conyers bought it up in 1989 before congress and the idea had been discussed long before that. In fact King was talking abut this before he was killed when he made refence to the government having to do something economically for blacks.

 

[Coyote]

"The US owes" them over 150 years ago. Not now.
I am sure that would violate all statutes of limitations on the planet.

That doesnt even make sense. Time doesnt nullify the debt.

If i die, are my kids forced to pay for my debts? Of course not. It comes out of my estate.
How many slave holding descendents still control the original estate? I wouldnt think it is many.
So why should this be different? Basically, you just want special rights.

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.

I don’t think descendents are owed anything, they were not the ones against whom the atrocity was committed. The idea of reparations for descendents of anything is a huge can of worms.

So the descendants of the Native Americans awarded 3.2 billion in Cobell v. Salazar a couple of years ago for what happened because of the Dawes Act didn't deserve reparations.

Let me make this short and sweet. White folks opinion is not the law. There is no statute of limitations oh human tights violations.. So what you whites here think, you can think it, but legally we can take a case to court for slavery reparations and as descendants of slaves we can receive reparations. However since you whites want to keep talking stupid, we can take a case to curt for human rights violations against blacks that covers the entirety of US history naming numerous violations whereby those like you cannot argue about how we aren't eligible for reparations. So as we keep beating this dead horse because whites do not want to be penalized for committing continuing human rights violations, you might want to rethink your argument.

i have not commited any crime inless you trying to claim that being white is a crime.