The value of slavery?

[Asclepias]

620,000 died to end slavery, any debts are settled, and then some.

No one died to end slavery. If youre referring to the civil war....it was fought to keep the southern losers from leaving..

“if I could save the union without freeing any slave I would do it”
-Abe Lincoln

Lincoln had no choice but to free the slaves in the south or the Union would have lost the war. We know this because the northern enslaved were still slaves.

 

[Asclepias]

When you learn this is about the government and not abut you the conversation will get better.

when you talk about "you whites" you take it out of the realm of government and into personal.

When you state "because whites do not want to be penalized for committing continuing human rights violations" you make it anout anyone white.

So what human rights violations jave I committed?

I disagree. Whites own the government hence why reparations have not been paid. Its valid to refer to whites as a group when discussing the government.

No its about the whites that are against reparations. The ones in control of the government. Not all whites are against reparations.

As far as I know you havent committed any.

You want to know why it’s more difficult for a Black professional to get hired as opposed to any other race?
Because business owners know your attitude.
They don’t want to get sued by you.
There are people on this forum who read your posts and they wouldn’t even want you as a customer.

I have no problems getting hired. People hunt me down for my skills.
I dont care about white people not wanting me as a customer. I prefer to spend my money with Black businesses. Sorry

Excellent!
Do you support a police presence to ensure a safe community for schools and businesses?
Because without a police presence many areas are not very appealing.

Not really on topic. Why are you deflecting?

 

[Indeependent]

when you talk about "you whites" you take it out of the realm of government and into personal.

When you state "because whites do not want to be penalized for committing continuing human rights violations" you make it anout anyone white.

So what human rights violations jave I committed?

I disagree. Whites own the government hence why reparations have not been paid. Its valid to refer to whites as a group when discussing the government.

No its about the whites that are against reparations. The ones in control of the government. Not all whites are against reparations.

As far as I know you havent committed any.

You want to know why it’s more difficult for a Black professional to get hired as opposed to any other race?
Because business owners know your attitude.
They don’t want to get sued by you.
There are people on this forum who read your posts and they wouldn’t even want you as a customer.

I have no problems getting hired. People hunt me down for my skills.
I dont care about white people not wanting me as a customer. I prefer to spend my money with Black businesses. Sorry

Excellent!
Do you support a police presence to ensure a safe community for schools and businesses?
Because without a police presence many areas are not very appealing.

Not really on topic. Why are you deflecting?

A tangent on the topic, perhaps.
I would hope you would use reparations to improve communities.

 

[Indeependent]

when you talk about "you whites" you take it out of the realm of government and into personal.

When you state "because whites do not want to be penalized for committing continuing human rights violations" you make it anout anyone white.

So what human rights violations jave I committed?

I disagree. Whites own the government hence why reparations have not been paid. Its valid to refer to whites as a group when discussing the government.

No its about the whites that are against reparations. The ones in control of the government. Not all whites are against reparations.

As far as I know you havent committed any.

You want to know why it’s more difficult for a Black professional to get hired as opposed to any other race?
Because business owners know your attitude.
They don’t want to get sued by you.
There are people on this forum who read your posts and they wouldn’t even want you as a customer.

I have no problems getting hired. People hunt me down for my skills.
I dont care about white people not wanting me as a customer. I prefer to spend my money with Black businesses. Sorry

Excellent!
Do you support a police presence to ensure a safe community for schools and businesses?
Because without a police presence many areas are not very appealing.

Not really on topic. Why are you deflecting?

In reality, the topic is exhausted.

 

[Asclepias]

I disagree. Whites own the government hence why reparations have not been paid. Its valid to refer to whites as a group when discussing the government.

No its about the whites that are against reparations. The ones in control of the government. Not all whites are against reparations.

As far as I know you havent committed any.

You want to know why it’s more difficult for a Black professional to get hired as opposed to any other race?
Because business owners know your attitude.
They don’t want to get sued by you.
There are people on this forum who read your posts and they wouldn’t even want you as a customer.

I have no problems getting hired. People hunt me down for my skills.
I dont care about white people not wanting me as a customer. I prefer to spend my money with Black businesses. Sorry

Excellent!
Do you support a police presence to ensure a safe community for schools and businesses?
Because without a police presence many areas are not very appealing.

Not really on topic. Why are you deflecting?

In reality, the topic is exhausted.

It may be exhausting to you but I am pretty fresh and ready to see any other claims why reparations are not valid. If you cant come up with any valid ones thats your issue.

 

[Indeependent]

You want to know why it’s more difficult for a Black professional to get hired as opposed to any other race?
Because business owners know your attitude.
They don’t want to get sued by you.
There are people on this forum who read your posts and they wouldn’t even want you as a customer.

I have no problems getting hired. People hunt me down for my skills.
I dont care about white people not wanting me as a customer. I prefer to spend my money with Black businesses. Sorry

Excellent!
Do you support a police presence to ensure a safe community for schools and businesses?
Because without a police presence many areas are not very appealing.

Not really on topic. Why are you deflecting?

In reality, the topic is exhausted.

It may be exhausting to you but I am pretty fresh and ready to see any other claims why reparations are not valid. If you cant come up with any valid ones thats your issue.

That’s why you haven’t received them.
Whatever anyone says is dismissable.
You’ll get real far with that attitude.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I have no problems getting hired. People hunt me down for my skills.
I dont care about white people not wanting me as a customer. I prefer to spend my money with Black businesses. Sorry

Excellent!
Do you support a police presence to ensure a safe community for schools and businesses?
Because without a police presence many areas are not very appealing.

Not really on topic. Why are you deflecting?

In reality, the topic is exhausted.

It may be exhausting to you but I am pretty fresh and ready to see any other claims why reparations are not valid. If you cant come up with any valid ones thats your issue.

That’s why you haven’t received them.
Whatever anyone says is dismissable.
You’ll get real far with that attitude.

He hates Whitey, it is what it is.

 

[Indeependent]

Excellent!
Do you support a police presence to ensure a safe community for schools and businesses?
Because without a police presence many areas are not very appealing.

Not really on topic. Why are you deflecting?

In reality, the topic is exhausted.

It may be exhausting to you but I am pretty fresh and ready to see any other claims why reparations are not valid. If you cant come up with any valid ones thats your issue.

That’s why you haven’t received them.
Whatever anyone says is dismissable.
You’ll get real far with that attitude.

He hates Whitey, it is what it is.

Yes he does; he may have his reasons.
I grew up in a very Jew hating community and I don’t hate groups, just individual idiots.

 

[IM2]

The US didnt die dummy. Concentrate. This is a debt the US owed the enslaved and owes the descendants of the enslaved since it was never paid.

I don’t think descendents are owed anything, they were not the ones against whom the atrocity was committed. The idea of reparations for descendents of anything is a huge can of worms.

So the descendants of the Native Americans awarded 3.2 billion in Cobell v. Salazar a couple of years ago for what happened because of the Dawes Act didn't deserve reparations.

Let me make this short and sweet. White folks opinion is not the law. There is no statute of limitations oh human tights violations.. So what you whites here think, you can think it, but legally we can take a case to court for slavery reparations and as descendants of slaves we can receive reparations. However since you whites want to keep talking stupid, we can take a case to curt for human rights violations against blacks that covers the entirety of US history naming numerous violations whereby those like you cannot argue about how we aren't eligible for reparations. So as we keep beating this dead horse because whites do not want to be penalized for committing continuing human rights violations, you might want to rethink your argument.

i have not commited any crime inless you trying to claim that being white is a crime.

When you learn this is about the government and not abut you the conversation will get better.

when you talk about "you whites" you take it out of the realm of government and into personal.

When you state "because whites do not want to be penalized for committing continuing human rights violations" you make it anout anyone white.

So what human rights violations jave I committed?

This is about the whites here not everyone white. It's time you whites here stopped that shit. You create unnecessary anger and derail conversation because of this. You whites are the ones here talking. And we have explained how this is a case to be taken to the government. And we still are reading about what you whites don't want to pay. If the payments are made for human rights violations, which is what slavery was, and if you oppose reparations for additional continuing human rights violations by whites as a white person, then you oppose having to pay a penalty for human rights violations committed by whites whether or not you committed one or not. Clear enough for you?

 

[IM2]

620,000 died to put an end to slavery, any debts are settled, and then some.

Incorrect.

 

[Asclepias]

I have no problems getting hired. People hunt me down for my skills.
I dont care about white people not wanting me as a customer. I prefer to spend my money with Black businesses. Sorry

Excellent!
Do you support a police presence to ensure a safe community for schools and businesses?
Because without a police presence many areas are not very appealing.

Not really on topic. Why are you deflecting?

In reality, the topic is exhausted.

It may be exhausting to you but I am pretty fresh and ready to see any other claims why reparations are not valid. If you cant come up with any valid ones thats your issue.

That’s why you haven’t received them.
Whatever anyone says is dismissable.
You’ll get real far with that attitude.

I dont plan on receiving them. Just making the point that your excuses are weak bread and based on whites not wanting to give up their head start.

Yes your excuses are easily dismissable because they are not based in reality. Thats one of the reasons you whites like to deflect from the point. You dont have anything valid to offer.

I know. I have gotten pretty far coming from the hood to where I am now.

 

[IM2]

One question on my mind is how life would have been for African Americans if their families did not sell them to Dutch traders?
Would they still be in Africa begging American and European investors for money?
Because Africa sure isn’t developing from internal resources.

This is pure ignorance that has no basis in fact.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Not really on topic. Why are you deflecting?

In reality, the topic is exhausted.

It may be exhausting to you but I am pretty fresh and ready to see any other claims why reparations are not valid. If you cant come up with any valid ones thats your issue.

That’s why you haven’t received them.
Whatever anyone says is dismissable.
You’ll get real far with that attitude.

He hates Whitey, it is what it is.

Yes he does; he may have his reasons.
I grew up in a very Jew hating community and I don’t hate groups, just individual idiots.

Agreed.

 

[Indeependent]

One question on my mind is how life would have been for African Americans if their families did not sell them to Dutch traders?
Would they still be in Africa begging American and European investors for money?
Because Africa sure isn’t developing from internal resources.

This is pure ignorance that has no basis in fact.

Sure.
That’s why every entertainment contest show on TV has their “Giving Back” episode dedicated to the poor of the African Continent.
It’s not like their audience is Black.
Africa is a great investment for cheap labor; just like India and China.

 

[Montrovant]

Most whites aren't millionaires, either. So you have some point? Are you suggesting that the US taxpayer be dunned to make instant millionaires out of the previously identified group of blacks? Before blacks were brought to this country as slaves, Native Americans were used as slave labor. Any suggestions? (Blacks were considered superior slaves because Native Americans were more likely to let themselves die than be chattel labor or be denied their freedom.)

My point is what I wrote. If most Blacks are millionaires then the economic wealth gap whites enjoy goes away.
No. I am suggesting the US pay what is owed to the descendants of those enslaved due to the US allowing chattel slavery. Isnt that what we are talking about?
Not all Native Americans were Black so I dont understand the deflection?

What makes you think it would be reinvested into

Herein lies the crux of our dispute: Two specific problems I can see with your proposal to dun modern day taxpayers: Millions of people today who were not participants in nor responsible for the actions of thie government at a time when slavery was an acceptable practice worldwide. (Slavery is still rampant in some places on this planet, even to this day.) The same government that worked to criminalize and eliminate the practice of slavery, even to the point of destroying the nation through armed conflict, if necessary. Do you disregard the lives of whites sacrificed in the bid to eliminate slavery and negate their sacrifices?
The second is: you are not asking for fair and equitable payments made by the descendants of those who owned slaves to those descendants of slaves held in this country. What you are asking for is a big KaChing! payout funded by big government coffers filled by totally innocent persons in sums to be determined by anyone "qualified" for retribution for a condition that ceased to exist, legally, in this country well over 100 years ago. Even if it were equitable for the sons to pay for the sins of their fathers, where is there any justification to force payment for anyone's sins by the innocent?
I am sorry if your great- or great-great-grandparents suffered slavery. But I will offer no personal apology because my forebears played no part in holding or trading slaves.
But supposing such reparations were to be paid to qualified persons, please explain how you believe that money would serve to improve the economy of the black community?

Doesnt matter if modern day people are responsible or not. Again its the US's debt to pay and they pay that with tax dollars. Slavery existing or having existed elsewhere has absolutely nothing to do with this. The US didnt go to war to end slavery. It went to war to keep the south from leaving. We know this because the enslaved were not freed in the Union states until later.

Its our right to go after direct descendants at a later date and time we determine. Whites dont dictate to us when and in what order we should sue for reparations.

The justification is that they are part of the US that benefited from and legalized chattel slavery.

You dont have to offer any apology. Any apology would be hollow and condescending in light of the economic gap that you dont want to address and refuse to believe in.

That money would instantly close the economic gap if paid. Not only that it could go to fund Black K-12 schools and bolster the HBCU's currently in existence. Basically it would be another Black Wall Street before jealous whites burned it to the ground. If you need to understand how money can change a community look at the history of Black Wall Street and other like Black communities before whites destroyed them.

So people should be forced to pay for the crimes of their forbears?

In your last paragraph why do you think reparations would go to any of that? Look at what happens with the typical lottery winner.

Yes they should if they profited from those crimes and others suffered because of those crimes. However, thats not what we are talking about. The US is paying the debt not those individuals. The US is responsible and complicit in those crimes due to the legalizing of chattel slavery.

Not sure what lotto winners have to do with my point? I think it would go that way because its been discussed in the Black community and the consensus is exactly what I stated.

There probably isn't a single person living who doesn't have ancestors who committed 'crimes' which caused others to suffer. Whether or not they have profited from the crimes of their ancestors is debatable, of course.

Is there a point at which reparations for slavery would no longer be valid, because too much time/too many generations would have passed? It's currently about 5 generations since the abolition of slavery, if you judge a generation by 30-year increments. At this point, you would have people getting reparations for things done to their great-great-great grandparents. Perhaps that is perfectly acceptable. Would it be fine after 10 generations? 20? Is the time limit (if any) the same for any crimes worthy of reparations, or is it different for each circumstance?

Lottery winners would be a similar situation in which individuals come into a large sum of money suddenly. I assume that is the comparison Coyote was making.

There is a consensus in the black community about how reparations would be used? There are something like 40-50 million blacks living in the US, how many would you say have agreed on how reparations given to individuals would be spent?

I think thats a false equivalency. The closest any other group of people come to experiencing the horrors and atrocities committed by the US are probably the NA's. They are currently getting some reparations. Blacks experienced the atrocity and horrors of slavery for multiple generations without pay.

No. I dont see there being a point where reparations would be invalid. Its pretty much coded in the word reparations. Nowhere is a time limit specified. I know thats what most whites would like. For Blacks to pretend it never happened. The problem is only going to get worse and larger with time. Whites should learn that its not clever or cool to welch on their debts. Whites in the US profited from slavery either directly or indirectly and now theyre against making things right.

Pretty much. We understand as a group that the only way to fight racism is to invest in our own communities. I have never taken an official count. It doesnt work that way with us.

I realize that slavery was one of, if not the, most horrible wrongs committed by the US as a nation. I was just trying to point out that everyone likely has ancestors who committed atrocities. It was a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment.

Should reparations be based on those directly wronged, or on the descendants? In other words, when calculating amounts, would it be the amount that should have been paid to slaves, and then that amount gets split up between eligible recipients, or should each recipient get whatever would have been owed to each slave?

I don't see how a lack of time limit is inherent in the idea of reparations. I also think that, at some point, you get to a place where reparations become pointless: if I have an ancestor that owned slaves in ancient Egypt, for example, it wouldn't make sense for me to pay reparations to the descendant of a slave owned by that ancestor of mine. I'm not saying that applies to slavery in the US, I'm just wondering if you believe there is a point where reparations are not longer actually redressing a wrong.

How is the problem going to get worse and larger with time?

Whether or not there is even a financial debt is a contentious issue.

I thought it was the US that owed the debt? Now here you are, saying the debt is owed by whites. It certainly does not lend you any credence to argue that the country owes a debt when you follow that up by saying that it is whites that owe the debt.

I don't expect an official count, I just wonder why you feel comfortable speaking for so many people. Finding anything like a consensus among 40-50 million people can be a difficult thing IMO.

 

[IM2]

One question on my mind is how life would have been for African Americans if their families did not sell them to Dutch traders?
Would they still be in Africa begging American and European investors for money?
Because Africa sure isn’t developing from internal resources.

This is pure ignorance that has no basis in fact.

Sure.
That’s why every entertainment contest show on TV has their “Giving Back” episode dedicated to the poor of the African Continent.
It’s not like their audience is Black.
Africa is a great investment for cheap labor; just like India and China.

Your comments continue to show a complete lack of knowledge.

 

[IM2]

The law determines what matters in this case. Not what people think.

 

[Montrovant]

The law determines what matters in this case. Not what people think.

What are the relevant laws regarding slavery reparations?

 

[IM2]

The law determines what matters in this case. Not what people think.

What are the relevant laws regarding slavery reparations?

We are talking about human rights violations. Understand?

 

[Indeependent]

One question on my mind is how life would have been for African Americans if their families did not sell them to Dutch traders?
Would they still be in Africa begging American and European investors for money?
Because Africa sure isn’t developing from internal resources.

This is pure ignorance that has no basis in fact.

Sure.
That’s why every entertainment contest show on TV has their “Giving Back” episode dedicated to the poor of the African Continent.
It’s not like their audience is Black.
Africa is a great investment for cheap labor; just like India and China.

Your comments continue to show a complete lack of knowledge.

Really?
Do the calculations of starving African familes with no hope of their kids having a better future in Africa and they’re brought to a place to work just as hard as they would on the farms in Africa.
Add to that the cost of clothing and food back then would just about cover their abject poverty back home.
From an accounting point of view, all you have left is the value of one’s personal time.
How productive was/is personal time in the typical African village?