This is why open carry is ridiculous.......and dangerous

[hadit]

So a bunch of Trumptoids planted themselves in front of the MI secretary of state's home Saturday night to protest the election, many of them were armed.
Why the fuck did anybody need to bring a gun if they wanted a truly "peaceful protest"?????
It just takes on drunk Trumptoid to cause someone harm or even death.
This woman was inside her house with her four-year-old child alone.
What the fuck is WRONG with you stupid motherfuckers????

"
Outside Benson's home on Saturday night, "at least one individual could be heard shouting 'you're murderers' within earshot of her child's bedroom," Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said in a joint statement with Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy.""""

Michigan Secretary Of State Says Armed Protesters Descended On Her Home Saturday

Saturday's protesters said they weren't there to cause trouble. The incident took place two months after the FBI thwarted an alleged plot by militia members to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer.

www.npr.org

Open carry is for pussy bois who are afraid someone will question their masculinity. Beta males in other words.

View attachment 426348

Open carry is about people who WILL NOT allow their God-given rights to be trampled, sheep.

Bullshit. Open carry is for people who wanna act tough but can't do it without a prop. Beta males, as previously stated.

Boy, am I glad that's not going on. That would be scary.

Sadly you are incorrect. That is exactly what is happening.

I think you need to get your foil helmet resized. That one's too tight and you're not getting your mind-reading waves through it.

 

[hadit]

So a bunch of Trumptoids planted themselves in front of the MI secretary of state's home Saturday night to protest the election, many of them were armed.
Why the fuck did anybody need to bring a gun if they wanted a truly "peaceful protest"?????
It just takes on drunk Trumptoid to cause someone harm or even death.
This woman was inside her house with her four-year-old child alone.
What the fuck is WRONG with you stupid motherfuckers????

"
Outside Benson's home on Saturday night, "at least one individual could be heard shouting 'you're murderers' within earshot of her child's bedroom," Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said in a joint statement with Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy.""""

Michigan Secretary Of State Says Armed Protesters Descended On Her Home Saturday

Saturday's protesters said they weren't there to cause trouble. The incident took place two months after the FBI thwarted an alleged plot by militia members to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer.

www.npr.org

Open carry is for pussy bois who are afraid someone will question their masculinity. Beta males in other words.

View attachment 426348

Open carry is about people who WILL NOT allow their God-given rights to be trampled, sheep.

Bullshit. It is about a bunch of short dicked,pussies that think they become tough guys by carrying a gun.

Is Sleepy Joe a "short dicked pussy"for having armed bodyguards at his beck and call 24/7 in the fortified Biden-Bunker?

No, you moron. President elect Biden is a high value target.

You aren't.

So guns are good when protecting a high value target, but are double plus ungood when protecting the ordinary citizen? A high value target is lauded for wanting and getting protection, but an ordinary citizen is a coward because she wants and gets protection?

What exactly are you trying to say?

Nobody is likely to be targeting your worthless ass for assassination.

This isn't rocket science, kid.

Wow, so now the threshold for protecting yourself is assassination? Guess that leaves you unprotected. Too bad, if my wife or daughter wants to carry a firearm to protect herself, you don't have anything to say about it.

 

[Crepitus]

Most people who get assassinated or threatened with assassination are ordinary people

Gonna hafta prove that with more than anecdotal crap.

 

[Crepitus]

Obvious why. That's not the issue.

Then what is the issue?

Waving it to intimidate people. Carrying rifles to protests, or fucking walmart for that matter.

 

[White 6]

So a bunch of Trumptoids planted themselves in front of the MI secretary of state's home Saturday night to protest the election, many of them were armed.
Why the fuck did anybody need to bring a gun if they wanted a truly "peaceful protest"?????
It just takes on drunk Trumptoid to cause someone harm or even death.
This woman was inside her house with her four-year-old child alone.
What the fuck is WRONG with you stupid motherfuckers????

"
Outside Benson's home on Saturday night, "at least one individual could be heard shouting 'you're murderers' within earshot of her child's bedroom," Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said in a joint statement with Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy.""""

Michigan Secretary Of State Says Armed Protesters Descended On Her Home Saturday

Saturday's protesters said they weren't there to cause trouble. The incident took place two months after the FBI thwarted an alleged plot by militia members to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer.

www.npr.org

First of all, I don't need to justify to you why I carry a gun. It is MY second amendment right. Second, I have heard of a Trump supporter that has killed anyone, unlike the Trump supporter that was MURDERED in Portland by a DNC/Antifa thug this summer. Third, these protesters are exercising their first amendment rights to address their representatives. If she doesn't like what they have to say, too bad. Fourth, why weren't you screaming when the DNC/BLM/Antifa thugs were burning/looting and defacing all summer long? And lastly if you don't want YOUR mother fucked, KEEP HER OFF THE STREETS. WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU--LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

Wasn't the gun nut down at the Texas Wall Mart (where free open carry long guns like a gold standard, is so common people did not know to be concerned until it was too late) a trump supporter. He killed several.

View attachment 426357

Maybe, but I just did a search just now with the search argument Was the Texas Wall Mart Shooter a trump supporter? This is what it returned 5 minutes ago, so I am not the only one with this impression.
View attachment 426366

So?

Anything on topic, Buttercup?

Just responding to the guy saying was unaware of any trump supporter shooting anybody and it was just the first open carry killing by a supposed trump supporter incident that came to mind, honey. But thanks for playing, dude.

You mean the hero that took out one of your child molesters?

No. He shot walmart shoppers and maybe employees. If any were child molesters, it was not reported in main stream or bat crap crazy news outlets.

Congressional baseball shooter fired at least 70 rounds, cased area for months

The shooting at a congressional baseball practice in June and the methods of the gunman behind it are described in the starkest detail yet in a report released Friday by Virginia officials.

www.cnn.com

I remember the nut ball shooter. That guy was an ass hole. He died of his injuries, which does not hurt my feelings in the least. What is your point?

Using your logic, he represents all Dimwinger supporters.

The dead nut ball shooter? No your conclusion is not logical and do not know what gave you that idea. I certainly never said it. Are you have visions or hearing voices only in your head?

So, you are backing off your obsession with the El Paso nutball shooter supposedly supporting Trump?

You mean he doesn't? Give me a link or a search argument. I'll read it. I could be wrong. It is just that nobody has shown me being wrong. They've only acted insulted for the poor killer nut ball, that I would impugn him as being a trump supporter. I showed where a lot of people had that impression. Nobody has linked to anything saying otherwise. Link away, dude.

You really are dumb. If you want to claim the El Paso nutbag has something to do with Trump, then the nutbag who shot up the Republican softball team is on the Dimwinger party.

You can't have it both ways.

I suspect the the dead nut ball that shot up the congressional softball game is a democrat and never said he wasn't. The guy said he never heard of a trump supporter doing that sort of thing. I just pitched out the first one that came to mind and when challenged showed links to articles saying the same thing. I think there are gun happy fools out there on both sides. Having been on a range with rightwing nut balls, am definitely distrustful of them. Seen enough nut balls on YouTube of undetermined or left wing, that I do not trust them either.

The first one? How about the ONLY one and it is not proven at ALL.

Boogaloo boys far right enough for your parameters? They kill people. They are anti government but in the trump corner, I always thought, because he is the anti government president. Always like the irony of that.

I am not advocating for the Proud Boys, the Boogaloo Boys, BLM, Antifa or any other whack job group that breaks the law and neither is Trump contrary to the BS that you are spreading, but those far right groups have not done anywhere near the damage in real or human numbers that BLM and Antifa have done. You left wing whack jobs are going to keep pushing BS and you are not going to be happy with what you reap.

Well I don't know. The radical left definitely suck and are dangerous as you say, but don't get too close the the militia guys as they may well get you killed also by intent or dumb assed lack of discipline. Basically anybody that goes to a protest/riot at night are the dumb asses and potential bad guys de jure. The right wing one just easier to spot with all their BDUs, weapons and LBE hanging out. Left is intent. Much of the far right is undisciplined cowboy gun nut stupidity. If you hate the left with a passion and it makes you feel good fine. Just saying watch bot those sides and stay away from the "Johnney's first full auto" crowd. Better yet, just skip going downtown to the riot and you'll probably be able to avoid both.

And yet you can not list not cite for us a SINGLE incident where any right wing group opened fire at a protest, But we can list dozens of murders fires rioting destruction and looting that was done by the left.

Just these, but not like I searched long. Just used the argument "right wing militia shoots"
View attachment 426819

Once again EVEN if the three you listed were really righties that is small beans compared to the death and mayhe from the last 9 months all committed by the left. And you can not prove all 3 are in fact from the right.

Probably about the same as you proving the left is the only one to blame. I accuse both sides, Sarge. Being a centrist, I am not too bought in to the us against them shit show going on in the American political culture and being exhorted by the right.
The thread is about open carry, which I do not support in regards to long guns. If you do, fine. Showing the strength in weapons unless forced is not what is taught in any tactic class I took or taught. If you are indeed retired army and of a combat arms background, you know I just gave you a true statement, almost straight out of a chapter on "The meeting engagement" in Armored Cavalry FM.
On the civilian side, showing weapons to intimidate, only works against those, both fearful and rational, other than that it just provokes. Mobs have mob mentality and do not exhibit their fear and definitely do not react as rational individuals, but more like stampedes. My experience with militia people on a range, do not show the self discipline or organizational trained discipline to meet the basic definition of a well regulated militia, though I totally support their 2nd amendment right to have and keep their weapons as I have mine in support of my personal defense. At protests or counter protests, they are fuckups waiting to happen. To say I have little respect for the militia movement is an understatement, though I have no respect for far left agitators or rabid BLM people.

Hey RETARD, I am a Marine. NOT in the Army. Retired Marine. Again for the slow and stupid, you can not cite a single incident whee a group of open carry people resorted to shooting ANYONE. I have 9 MONTHS of riots Burning Looting, MURDER and mayhem.

Well that explains you falling in line without regard for thinking for yourself. If you live somewhere, where you have had 9 months of rioting and have not moved, you are dumber than a rock. No matter how they actually deploy and are used, you really think their tactic manuals say different than what I stated? Wake up and smell what your are shoveling.

I a not the one claiming peaceful demonstration with ABSOLUTELY NO violence mayhem or rioting are somehow more onerous then riots murder burning and looting, that would be you. Again cite for us any protest with open carry that broke into violence. I have 9 months of violent protests by lefties. You have ZERO violent protests by righties and yet you claim it is somehow worse then the left.

Done all the research (not much) that your position is worth. Again, if you have 9 months of violent protests in your vicinity, you should move. Not an invitation, but we're not having your problem here nor in most places across this country, for that matter. Nobody ordering you to stay there and defend. Remember, you are retired. I am not even going to visit the city and especially the small segment of a city that has had it. It is your problem. Walk 6 blocks and make your stand or move. I will watch on TV news, thank you very much.

You are such a lying asshole, the riots occurred across the country in numerous locations and I REPEAT, CITE an incident where open carry protest has resulted in violence.... You keep claiming it is a problem, BUT can ot cite a single incident were it has lead to violence. NOT ONE. All one need do is preview the news over the las 9 months to have dozens of examples of left wing violence. You are a liar a moron and stupid to boot.

Here is something for your butt hurt. I am sure your friends will enjoy it too.
View attachment 426996

Still waiting for an example of when an open carry protest turned violent.

Those cows have not come home. Doubt they ever will, but you a can keep waiting.
View attachment 427015

So in other words the supposed threat you claim doesn't ACTUALLY exist while you ignore 9 months of violence and mayhem by leftists.

You still don't get it. Try this.
View attachment 427027

Again YOU NOT I made a claim, YOU NOT I claimed open carry protests were dangerous and a problem, PLEASE cite for us an example of that being true.

Maybe you can relate to this:
With all due respect, your beginning to bore the hell out me.
View attachment 427060

Of course I am cause you got nothing, no evidence no facts no proof. You made an ignorant claim that can not be backed up with ANYTHING. You either lied or are just to stupid to know you are wrong.

Opinions vary. To me, yours doesn't count for much. Aren't you supposed to be loading up for the riot at your town that has been going for 9 months?

God you are stupid , be specific now and cited where I said my town had a riot for 9 months.

" I have 9 months of violent protests by lefties. " Post #294
I don't. Pretty peaceful here this year.

That is country wide you buffoon. I guess you are just to stupid to watch read or hear the news hell I dont even watch the news I get mine second hand or from the internet. all the big democratic run cities went up in flames along with several smaller ones in de states after the local Governor and Mayor refused to send in the police or Guard. Portland went on for months.

Figured you for a second hand internet news guy. Probably why you did not seem to know that the vast, vast majority of the country has had few demonstrations and no violent protests and in the few cities that have, the protest violence was in just a few block area. I don't approve the "let it run it's course" school of thought the mayors (and yes, I am aware they are predominantly democrat mayors) exercised, but those local mayors are not my problem or your unless you live there. Being retired a usually vacation whenever I can. Those cities are not even on my list of places to see. If yours is indeed one of them, don't look for me.
As for your eternal name calling, it is a sign of your deplorable nature. Not all republicans are in the basket of deplorables, but people like you are what it is know for and why they are in fact deplorable in modern society. If your city sucks, it is your city's problem and you should run for office to change it instead of reading your second hand news and whining about a reality you do not live in, is overstated by the internet, and unsuccessfully used by the right against Biden in the election, just complete with Biden the winner. Lick your wounds and go on with your life. I still do not support open carry long guns.

 

[Polishprince]

Most people who get assassinated or threatened with assassination are ordinary people

Gonna hafta prove that with more than anecdotal crap.

16,000 people were assassinated in America in 2019, do you really think that more than 8000 were famous?

 

[Crepitus]

So a bunch of Trumptoids planted themselves in front of the MI secretary of state's home Saturday night to protest the election, many of them were armed.
Why the fuck did anybody need to bring a gun if they wanted a truly "peaceful protest"?????
It just takes on drunk Trumptoid to cause someone harm or even death.
This woman was inside her house with her four-year-old child alone.
What the fuck is WRONG with you stupid motherfuckers????

"
Outside Benson's home on Saturday night, "at least one individual could be heard shouting 'you're murderers' within earshot of her child's bedroom," Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said in a joint statement with Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy.""""

Michigan Secretary Of State Says Armed Protesters Descended On Her Home Saturday

Saturday's protesters said they weren't there to cause trouble. The incident took place two months after the FBI thwarted an alleged plot by militia members to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer.

www.npr.org

Open carry is for pussy bois who are afraid someone will question their masculinity. Beta males in other words.

View attachment 426348

Open carry is about people who WILL NOT allow their God-given rights to be trampled, sheep.

Bullshit. It is about a bunch of short dicked,pussies that think they become tough guys by carrying a gun.

Is Sleepy Joe a "short dicked pussy"for having armed bodyguards at his beck and call 24/7 in the fortified Biden-Bunker?

No, you moron. President elect Biden is a high value target.

You aren't.

So guns are good when protecting a high value target, but are double plus ungood when protecting the ordinary citizen? A high value target is lauded for wanting and getting protection, but an ordinary citizen is a coward because she wants and gets protection?

What exactly are you trying to say?

Nobody is likely to be targeting your worthless ass for assassination.

This isn't rocket science, kid.

Wow, so now the threshold for protecting yourself is assassination? Guess that leaves you unprotected. Too bad, if my wife or daughter wants to carry a firearm to protect herself, you don't have anything to say about it.

Nope. That's why Joe Biden is surrounded by gun toting secret service bodyguards.

Stop trying to move the goalposts.

 

[Crepitus]

Most people who get assassinated or threatened with assassination are ordinary people

Gonna hafta prove that with more than anecdotal crap.

16,000 people were assassinated in America in 2019, do you really think that more than 8000 were famous?

Nobody was assassinated in the us in 2019.

 

[hadit]

So a bunch of Trumptoids planted themselves in front of the MI secretary of state's home Saturday night to protest the election, many of them were armed.
Why the fuck did anybody need to bring a gun if they wanted a truly "peaceful protest"?????
It just takes on drunk Trumptoid to cause someone harm or even death.
This woman was inside her house with her four-year-old child alone.
What the fuck is WRONG with you stupid motherfuckers????

"
Outside Benson's home on Saturday night, "at least one individual could be heard shouting 'you're murderers' within earshot of her child's bedroom," Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said in a joint statement with Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy.""""

Michigan Secretary Of State Says Armed Protesters Descended On Her Home Saturday

Saturday's protesters said they weren't there to cause trouble. The incident took place two months after the FBI thwarted an alleged plot by militia members to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer.

www.npr.org

Open carry is for pussy bois who are afraid someone will question their masculinity. Beta males in other words.

View attachment 426348

Open carry is about people who WILL NOT allow their God-given rights to be trampled, sheep.

Bullshit. It is about a bunch of short dicked,pussies that think they become tough guys by carrying a gun.

Is Sleepy Joe a "short dicked pussy"for having armed bodyguards at his beck and call 24/7 in the fortified Biden-Bunker?

No, you moron. President elect Biden is a high value target.

You aren't.

So guns are good when protecting a high value target, but are double plus ungood when protecting the ordinary citizen? A high value target is lauded for wanting and getting protection, but an ordinary citizen is a coward because she wants and gets protection?

What exactly are you trying to say?

Nobody is likely to be targeting your worthless ass for assassination.

This isn't rocket science, kid.

Wow, so now the threshold for protecting yourself is assassination? Guess that leaves you unprotected. Too bad, if my wife or daughter wants to carry a firearm to protect herself, you don't have anything to say about it.

Nope. That's why Joe Biden is surrounded by gun toting secret service bodyguards.

Stop trying to move the goalposts.

IOW, guns protect people. You just think some people are worth protecting and others are not.

 

[Polishprince]

Most people who get assassinated or threatened with assassination are ordinary people

Gonna hafta prove that with more than anecdotal crap.

16,000 people were assassinated in America in 2019, do you really think that more than 8000 were famous?

Nobody was assassinated in the us in 2019.

Actually, many thousands were. Oftentimes just because they just decided to walk out in the Killing Fields of Chicago and Baltimore, both of which saw hundreds of assassinations each last year.

 

[White 6]

Most people who get assassinated or threatened with assassination are ordinary people

Gonna hafta prove that with more than anecdotal crap.

16,000 people were assassinated in America in 2019, do you really think that more than 8000 were famous?

Nobody was assassinated in the us in 2019.

Actually, many thousands were. Oftentimes just because they just decided to walk out in the Killing Fields of Chicago and Baltimore, both of which saw hundreds of assassinations each last year.

BS.
Merriam Webster
Definition of assassination
1 : murder by sudden or secret attack often for political reasons : the act or an instance of assassinating someone (such as a prominent political leader)

Using assassination to cover gang violence and drive by shooting is kind of a stretch.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Obvious why. That's not the issue.

Then what is the issue?

Waving it to intimidate people. Carrying rifles to protests, or fucking walmart for that matter.

So who was waving it? Open carry is not waving anything. What's the difference between carrying a rifle or a handgun?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So a bunch of Trumptoids planted themselves in front of the MI secretary of state's home Saturday night to protest the election, many of them were armed.
Why the fuck did anybody need to bring a gun if they wanted a truly "peaceful protest"?????
It just takes on drunk Trumptoid to cause someone harm or even death.
This woman was inside her house with her four-year-old child alone.
What the fuck is WRONG with you stupid motherfuckers????

"
Outside Benson's home on Saturday night, "at least one individual could be heard shouting 'you're murderers' within earshot of her child's bedroom," Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said in a joint statement with Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy.""""

Michigan Secretary Of State Says Armed Protesters Descended On Her Home Saturday

Saturday's protesters said they weren't there to cause trouble. The incident took place two months after the FBI thwarted an alleged plot by militia members to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer.

www.npr.org

First of all, I don't need to justify to you why I carry a gun. It is MY second amendment right. Second, I have heard of a Trump supporter that has killed anyone, unlike the Trump supporter that was MURDERED in Portland by a DNC/Antifa thug this summer. Third, these protesters are exercising their first amendment rights to address their representatives. If she doesn't like what they have to say, too bad. Fourth, why weren't you screaming when the DNC/BLM/Antifa thugs were burning/looting and defacing all summer long? And lastly if you don't want YOUR mother fucked, KEEP HER OFF THE STREETS. WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU--LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

Wasn't the gun nut down at the Texas Wall Mart (where free open carry long guns like a gold standard, is so common people did not know to be concerned until it was too late) a trump supporter. He killed several.

View attachment 426357

Maybe, but I just did a search just now with the search argument Was the Texas Wall Mart Shooter a trump supporter? This is what it returned 5 minutes ago, so I am not the only one with this impression.
View attachment 426366

So?

Anything on topic, Buttercup?

Just responding to the guy saying was unaware of any trump supporter shooting anybody and it was just the first open carry killing by a supposed trump supporter incident that came to mind, honey. But thanks for playing, dude.

You mean the hero that took out one of your child molesters?

No. He shot walmart shoppers and maybe employees. If any were child molesters, it was not reported in main stream or bat crap crazy news outlets.

Congressional baseball shooter fired at least 70 rounds, cased area for months

The shooting at a congressional baseball practice in June and the methods of the gunman behind it are described in the starkest detail yet in a report released Friday by Virginia officials.

www.cnn.com

I remember the nut ball shooter. That guy was an ass hole. He died of his injuries, which does not hurt my feelings in the least. What is your point?

Using your logic, he represents all Dimwinger supporters.

The dead nut ball shooter? No your conclusion is not logical and do not know what gave you that idea. I certainly never said it. Are you have visions or hearing voices only in your head?

So, you are backing off your obsession with the El Paso nutball shooter supposedly supporting Trump?

You mean he doesn't? Give me a link or a search argument. I'll read it. I could be wrong. It is just that nobody has shown me being wrong. They've only acted insulted for the poor killer nut ball, that I would impugn him as being a trump supporter. I showed where a lot of people had that impression. Nobody has linked to anything saying otherwise. Link away, dude.

You really are dumb. If you want to claim the El Paso nutbag has something to do with Trump, then the nutbag who shot up the Republican softball team is on the Dimwinger party.

You can't have it both ways.

I suspect the the dead nut ball that shot up the congressional softball game is a democrat and never said he wasn't. The guy said he never heard of a trump supporter doing that sort of thing. I just pitched out the first one that came to mind and when challenged showed links to articles saying the same thing. I think there are gun happy fools out there on both sides. Having been on a range with rightwing nut balls, am definitely distrustful of them. Seen enough nut balls on YouTube of undetermined or left wing, that I do not trust them either.

The first one? How about the ONLY one and it is not proven at ALL.

Boogaloo boys far right enough for your parameters? They kill people. They are anti government but in the trump corner, I always thought, because he is the anti government president. Always like the irony of that.

I am not advocating for the Proud Boys, the Boogaloo Boys, BLM, Antifa or any other whack job group that breaks the law and neither is Trump contrary to the BS that you are spreading, but those far right groups have not done anywhere near the damage in real or human numbers that BLM and Antifa have done. You left wing whack jobs are going to keep pushing BS and you are not going to be happy with what you reap.

Well I don't know. The radical left definitely suck and are dangerous as you say, but don't get too close the the militia guys as they may well get you killed also by intent or dumb assed lack of discipline. Basically anybody that goes to a protest/riot at night are the dumb asses and potential bad guys de jure. The right wing one just easier to spot with all their BDUs, weapons and LBE hanging out. Left is intent. Much of the far right is undisciplined cowboy gun nut stupidity. If you hate the left with a passion and it makes you feel good fine. Just saying watch bot those sides and stay away from the "Johnney's first full auto" crowd. Better yet, just skip going downtown to the riot and you'll probably be able to avoid both.

And yet you can not list not cite for us a SINGLE incident where any right wing group opened fire at a protest, But we can list dozens of murders fires rioting destruction and looting that was done by the left.

Just these, but not like I searched long. Just used the argument "right wing militia shoots"
View attachment 426819

Once again EVEN if the three you listed were really righties that is small beans compared to the death and mayhe from the last 9 months all committed by the left. And you can not prove all 3 are in fact from the right.

Probably about the same as you proving the left is the only one to blame. I accuse both sides, Sarge. Being a centrist, I am not too bought in to the us against them shit show going on in the American political culture and being exhorted by the right.
The thread is about open carry, which I do not support in regards to long guns. If you do, fine. Showing the strength in weapons unless forced is not what is taught in any tactic class I took or taught. If you are indeed retired army and of a combat arms background, you know I just gave you a true statement, almost straight out of a chapter on "The meeting engagement" in Armored Cavalry FM.
On the civilian side, showing weapons to intimidate, only works against those, both fearful and rational, other than that it just provokes. Mobs have mob mentality and do not exhibit their fear and definitely do not react as rational individuals, but more like stampedes. My experience with militia people on a range, do not show the self discipline or organizational trained discipline to meet the basic definition of a well regulated militia, though I totally support their 2nd amendment right to have and keep their weapons as I have mine in support of my personal defense. At protests or counter protests, they are fuckups waiting to happen. To say I have little respect for the militia movement is an understatement, though I have no respect for far left agitators or rabid BLM people.

Hey RETARD, I am a Marine. NOT in the Army. Retired Marine. Again for the slow and stupid, you can not cite a single incident whee a group of open carry people resorted to shooting ANYONE. I have 9 MONTHS of riots Burning Looting, MURDER and mayhem.

Well that explains you falling in line without regard for thinking for yourself. If you live somewhere, where you have had 9 months of rioting and have not moved, you are dumber than a rock. No matter how they actually deploy and are used, you really think their tactic manuals say different than what I stated? Wake up and smell what your are shoveling.

I a not the one claiming peaceful demonstration with ABSOLUTELY NO violence mayhem or rioting are somehow more onerous then riots murder burning and looting, that would be you. Again cite for us any protest with open carry that broke into violence. I have 9 months of violent protests by lefties. You have ZERO violent protests by righties and yet you claim it is somehow worse then the left.

Done all the research (not much) that your position is worth. Again, if you have 9 months of violent protests in your vicinity, you should move. Not an invitation, but we're not having your problem here nor in most places across this country, for that matter. Nobody ordering you to stay there and defend. Remember, you are retired. I am not even going to visit the city and especially the small segment of a city that has had it. It is your problem. Walk 6 blocks and make your stand or move. I will watch on TV news, thank you very much.

You are such a lying asshole, the riots occurred across the country in numerous locations and I REPEAT, CITE an incident where open carry protest has resulted in violence.... You keep claiming it is a problem, BUT can ot cite a single incident were it has lead to violence. NOT ONE. All one need do is preview the news over the las 9 months to have dozens of examples of left wing violence. You are a liar a moron and stupid to boot.

Here is something for your butt hurt. I am sure your friends will enjoy it too.
View attachment 426996

Still waiting for an example of when an open carry protest turned violent.

Those cows have not come home. Doubt they ever will, but you a can keep waiting.
View attachment 427015

So in other words the supposed threat you claim doesn't ACTUALLY exist while you ignore 9 months of violence and mayhem by leftists.

You still don't get it. Try this.
View attachment 427027

Again YOU NOT I made a claim, YOU NOT I claimed open carry protests were dangerous and a problem, PLEASE cite for us an example of that being true.

Maybe you can relate to this:
With all due respect, your beginning to bore the hell out me.
View attachment 427060

Of course I am cause you got nothing, no evidence no facts no proof. You made an ignorant claim that can not be backed up with ANYTHING. You either lied or are just to stupid to know you are wrong.

Opinions vary. To me, yours doesn't count for much. Aren't you supposed to be loading up for the riot at your town that has been going for 9 months?

God you are stupid , be specific now and cited where I said my town had a riot for 9 months.

" I have 9 months of violent protests by lefties. " Post #294
I don't. Pretty peaceful here this year.

That is country wide you buffoon. I guess you are just to stupid to watch read or hear the news hell I dont even watch the news I get mine second hand or from the internet. all the big democratic run cities went up in flames along with several smaller ones in de states after the local Governor and Mayor refused to send in the police or Guard. Portland went on for months.

Figured you for a second hand internet news guy. Probably why you did not seem to know that the vast, vast majority of the country has had few demonstrations and no violent protests and in the few cities that have, the protest violence was in just a few block area. I don't approve the "let it run it's course" school of thought the mayors (and yes, I am aware they are predominantly democrat mayors) exercised, but those local mayors are not my problem or your unless you live there. Being retired a usually vacation whenever I can. Those cities are not even on my list of places to see. If yours is indeed one of them, don't look for me.
As for your eternal name calling, it is a sign of your deplorable nature. Not all republicans are in the basket of deplorables, but people like you are what it is know for and why they are in fact deplorable in modern society. If your city sucks, it is your city's problem and you should run for office to change it instead of reading your second hand news and whining about a reality you do not live in, is overstated by the internet, and unsuccessfully used by the right against Biden in the election, just complete with Biden the winner. Lick your wounds and go on with your life. I still do not support open carry long guns.

There were at the 5 month mark over 1200 protests and even the lame strea press admitted 7 percent of that was VIOLENT, do you know what 7 percent of 1200 is? A very big number. 84 so 84 in 5 months. Mostly in big cities with BILLIONS in lost revenue destroyed property and at least 10 deaths. Add 4 months and that is another 1000 protests at 70 or more violent. Portland and Seattle had violent protests for MONTHS. ou can LIE all you want but it won't fly the press could not hide the truth just try and down play it. BILLIONS in damage BILLIONS in lost revenue hundreds of cops injured, 10 people murdered.In 5 months.

And you can not actually provide us with a single incident of an open carry protest resulting in damage death or even any firearms fired.Every single time a new state passed open carry people like you howled about the wild west, shoot outs in the street and bars so on and so on. YET in 30 years NONE have happened NONE.

 

[hadit]

So a bunch of Trumptoids planted themselves in front of the MI secretary of state's home Saturday night to protest the election, many of them were armed.
Why the fuck did anybody need to bring a gun if they wanted a truly "peaceful protest"?????
It just takes on drunk Trumptoid to cause someone harm or even death.
This woman was inside her house with her four-year-old child alone.
What the fuck is WRONG with you stupid motherfuckers????

"
Outside Benson's home on Saturday night, "at least one individual could be heard shouting 'you're murderers' within earshot of her child's bedroom," Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said in a joint statement with Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy.""""

Michigan Secretary Of State Says Armed Protesters Descended On Her Home Saturday

Saturday's protesters said they weren't there to cause trouble. The incident took place two months after the FBI thwarted an alleged plot by militia members to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer.

www.npr.org

First of all, I don't need to justify to you why I carry a gun. It is MY second amendment right. Second, I have heard of a Trump supporter that has killed anyone, unlike the Trump supporter that was MURDERED in Portland by a DNC/Antifa thug this summer. Third, these protesters are exercising their first amendment rights to address their representatives. If she doesn't like what they have to say, too bad. Fourth, why weren't you screaming when the DNC/BLM/Antifa thugs were burning/looting and defacing all summer long? And lastly if you don't want YOUR mother fucked, KEEP HER OFF THE STREETS. WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU--LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

Wasn't the gun nut down at the Texas Wall Mart (where free open carry long guns like a gold standard, is so common people did not know to be concerned until it was too late) a trump supporter. He killed several.

View attachment 426357

Maybe, but I just did a search just now with the search argument Was the Texas Wall Mart Shooter a trump supporter? This is what it returned 5 minutes ago, so I am not the only one with this impression.
View attachment 426366

So?

Anything on topic, Buttercup?

Just responding to the guy saying was unaware of any trump supporter shooting anybody and it was just the first open carry killing by a supposed trump supporter incident that came to mind, honey. But thanks for playing, dude.

You mean the hero that took out one of your child molesters?

No. He shot walmart shoppers and maybe employees. If any were child molesters, it was not reported in main stream or bat crap crazy news outlets.

Congressional baseball shooter fired at least 70 rounds, cased area for months

The shooting at a congressional baseball practice in June and the methods of the gunman behind it are described in the starkest detail yet in a report released Friday by Virginia officials.

www.cnn.com

I remember the nut ball shooter. That guy was an ass hole. He died of his injuries, which does not hurt my feelings in the least. What is your point?

Using your logic, he represents all Dimwinger supporters.

The dead nut ball shooter? No your conclusion is not logical and do not know what gave you that idea. I certainly never said it. Are you have visions or hearing voices only in your head?

So, you are backing off your obsession with the El Paso nutball shooter supposedly supporting Trump?

You mean he doesn't? Give me a link or a search argument. I'll read it. I could be wrong. It is just that nobody has shown me being wrong. They've only acted insulted for the poor killer nut ball, that I would impugn him as being a trump supporter. I showed where a lot of people had that impression. Nobody has linked to anything saying otherwise. Link away, dude.

You really are dumb. If you want to claim the El Paso nutbag has something to do with Trump, then the nutbag who shot up the Republican softball team is on the Dimwinger party.

You can't have it both ways.

I suspect the the dead nut ball that shot up the congressional softball game is a democrat and never said he wasn't. The guy said he never heard of a trump supporter doing that sort of thing. I just pitched out the first one that came to mind and when challenged showed links to articles saying the same thing. I think there are gun happy fools out there on both sides. Having been on a range with rightwing nut balls, am definitely distrustful of them. Seen enough nut balls on YouTube of undetermined or left wing, that I do not trust them either.

The first one? How about the ONLY one and it is not proven at ALL.

Boogaloo boys far right enough for your parameters? They kill people. They are anti government but in the trump corner, I always thought, because he is the anti government president. Always like the irony of that.

I am not advocating for the Proud Boys, the Boogaloo Boys, BLM, Antifa or any other whack job group that breaks the law and neither is Trump contrary to the BS that you are spreading, but those far right groups have not done anywhere near the damage in real or human numbers that BLM and Antifa have done. You left wing whack jobs are going to keep pushing BS and you are not going to be happy with what you reap.

Well I don't know. The radical left definitely suck and are dangerous as you say, but don't get too close the the militia guys as they may well get you killed also by intent or dumb assed lack of discipline. Basically anybody that goes to a protest/riot at night are the dumb asses and potential bad guys de jure. The right wing one just easier to spot with all their BDUs, weapons and LBE hanging out. Left is intent. Much of the far right is undisciplined cowboy gun nut stupidity. If you hate the left with a passion and it makes you feel good fine. Just saying watch bot those sides and stay away from the "Johnney's first full auto" crowd. Better yet, just skip going downtown to the riot and you'll probably be able to avoid both.

And yet you can not list not cite for us a SINGLE incident where any right wing group opened fire at a protest, But we can list dozens of murders fires rioting destruction and looting that was done by the left.

Just these, but not like I searched long. Just used the argument "right wing militia shoots"
View attachment 426819

Once again EVEN if the three you listed were really righties that is small beans compared to the death and mayhe from the last 9 months all committed by the left. And you can not prove all 3 are in fact from the right.

Probably about the same as you proving the left is the only one to blame. I accuse both sides, Sarge. Being a centrist, I am not too bought in to the us against them shit show going on in the American political culture and being exhorted by the right.
The thread is about open carry, which I do not support in regards to long guns. If you do, fine. Showing the strength in weapons unless forced is not what is taught in any tactic class I took or taught. If you are indeed retired army and of a combat arms background, you know I just gave you a true statement, almost straight out of a chapter on "The meeting engagement" in Armored Cavalry FM.
On the civilian side, showing weapons to intimidate, only works against those, both fearful and rational, other than that it just provokes. Mobs have mob mentality and do not exhibit their fear and definitely do not react as rational individuals, but more like stampedes. My experience with militia people on a range, do not show the self discipline or organizational trained discipline to meet the basic definition of a well regulated militia, though I totally support their 2nd amendment right to have and keep their weapons as I have mine in support of my personal defense. At protests or counter protests, they are fuckups waiting to happen. To say I have little respect for the militia movement is an understatement, though I have no respect for far left agitators or rabid BLM people.

Hey RETARD, I am a Marine. NOT in the Army. Retired Marine. Again for the slow and stupid, you can not cite a single incident whee a group of open carry people resorted to shooting ANYONE. I have 9 MONTHS of riots Burning Looting, MURDER and mayhem.

Well that explains you falling in line without regard for thinking for yourself. If you live somewhere, where you have had 9 months of rioting and have not moved, you are dumber than a rock. No matter how they actually deploy and are used, you really think their tactic manuals say different than what I stated? Wake up and smell what your are shoveling.

I a not the one claiming peaceful demonstration with ABSOLUTELY NO violence mayhem or rioting are somehow more onerous then riots murder burning and looting, that would be you. Again cite for us any protest with open carry that broke into violence. I have 9 months of violent protests by lefties. You have ZERO violent protests by righties and yet you claim it is somehow worse then the left.

Done all the research (not much) that your position is worth. Again, if you have 9 months of violent protests in your vicinity, you should move. Not an invitation, but we're not having your problem here nor in most places across this country, for that matter. Nobody ordering you to stay there and defend. Remember, you are retired. I am not even going to visit the city and especially the small segment of a city that has had it. It is your problem. Walk 6 blocks and make your stand or move. I will watch on TV news, thank you very much.

You are such a lying asshole, the riots occurred across the country in numerous locations and I REPEAT, CITE an incident where open carry protest has resulted in violence.... You keep claiming it is a problem, BUT can ot cite a single incident were it has lead to violence. NOT ONE. All one need do is preview the news over the las 9 months to have dozens of examples of left wing violence. You are a liar a moron and stupid to boot.

Here is something for your butt hurt. I am sure your friends will enjoy it too.
View attachment 426996

Still waiting for an example of when an open carry protest turned violent.

Those cows have not come home. Doubt they ever will, but you a can keep waiting.
View attachment 427015

So in other words the supposed threat you claim doesn't ACTUALLY exist while you ignore 9 months of violence and mayhem by leftists.

You still don't get it. Try this.
View attachment 427027

Again YOU NOT I made a claim, YOU NOT I claimed open carry protests were dangerous and a problem, PLEASE cite for us an example of that being true.

Maybe you can relate to this:
With all due respect, your beginning to bore the hell out me.
View attachment 427060

Of course I am cause you got nothing, no evidence no facts no proof. You made an ignorant claim that can not be backed up with ANYTHING. You either lied or are just to stupid to know you are wrong.

Opinions vary. To me, yours doesn't count for much. Aren't you supposed to be loading up for the riot at your town that has been going for 9 months?

God you are stupid , be specific now and cited where I said my town had a riot for 9 months.

" I have 9 months of violent protests by lefties. " Post #294
I don't. Pretty peaceful here this year.

That is country wide you buffoon. I guess you are just to stupid to watch read or hear the news hell I dont even watch the news I get mine second hand or from the internet. all the big democratic run cities went up in flames along with several smaller ones in de states after the local Governor and Mayor refused to send in the police or Guard. Portland went on for months.

Figured you for a second hand internet news guy. Probably why you did not seem to know that the vast, vast majority of the country has had few demonstrations and no violent protests and in the few cities that have, the protest violence was in just a few block area. I don't approve the "let it run it's course" school of thought the mayors (and yes, I am aware they are predominantly democrat mayors) exercised, but those local mayors are not my problem or your unless you live there. Being retired a usually vacation whenever I can. Those cities are not even on my list of places to see. If yours is indeed one of them, don't look for me.
As for your eternal name calling, it is a sign of your deplorable nature. Not all republicans are in the basket of deplorables, but people like you are what it is know for and why they are in fact deplorable in modern society. If your city sucks, it is your city's problem and you should run for office to change it instead of reading your second hand news and whining about a reality you do not live in, is overstated by the internet, and unsuccessfully used by the right against Biden in the election, just complete with Biden the winner. Lick your wounds and go on with your life. I still do not support open carry long guns.

There were at the 5 month mark over 1200 protests and even the lame strea press admitted 7 percent of that was VIOLENT, do you know what 7 percent of 1200 is? A very big number. 84 so 84 in 5 months. Mostly in big cities with BILLIONS in lost revenue destroyed property and at least 10 deaths. Add 4 months and that is another 1000 protests at 70 or more violent. Portland and Seattle had violent protests for MONTHS. ou can LIE all you want but it won't fly the press could not hide the truth just try and down play it. BILLIONS in damage BILLIONS in lost revenue hundreds of cops injured, 10 people murdered.In 5 months.

And you can not actually provide us with a single incident of an open carry protest resulting in damage death or even any firearms fired.Every single time a new state passed open carry people like you howled about the wild west, shoot outs in the street and bars so on and so on. YET in 30 years NONE have happened NONE.

But, but it's going to happen, any day now. It just HAS to happen!!!

 

[White 6]

Obvious why. That's not the issue.

Then what is the issue?

Waving it to intimidate people. Carrying rifles to protests, or fucking walmart for that matter.

So who was waving it? Open carry is not waving anything. What's the difference between carrying a rifle or a handgun?

We have sensible gun laws in Tennessee. If you have a carry permit, you can carry a handgun open or concealed. You cannot carry a long gun.
I think it is for the intimidation factor whether that is accurate or not. To say open carry of long guns is not waving them around is not accurate. Carried one many a mile back in the day, and often had to move it, adjust position of it, plus it moves around as you walk on its own. It would attract quite a bit of attention in normal society, not in a game hunting environment. It would be a display, meant to intimidate. Makes it simple to identify the bad guy target in walmart parking lot and the eyes of all of us carry permit handgun carriers would be upon him.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

We have sensible gun laws in Tennessee. If you have a carry permit, you can carry a handgun open or concealed. You cannot carry a long gun.
I think it is for the intimidation factor whether that is accurate or not. To say open carry of long guns is not waving them around is not accurate. Carried one many a mile back in the day, and often had to move it, adjust position of it, plus it moves around as you walk on its own. It would attract quite a bit of attention in normal society, not in a game hunting environment. It would be a display, meant to intimidate. Makes it simple to identify the bad guy target in walmart parking lot and the eyes of all of us carry permit handgun carriers would be upon him.

I think anytime you expose your weapon it is for intimidation. It's a question of who you are trying to intimidate. In this particular OP, it's obvious the few people what were open carrying were trying to intimidate any ANTIFA types that wanted to bring on a confrontation.

 

[White 6]

We have sensible gun laws in Tennessee. If you have a carry permit, you can carry a handgun open or concealed. You cannot carry a long gun.
I think it is for the intimidation factor whether that is accurate or not. To say open carry of long guns is not waving them around is not accurate. Carried one many a mile back in the day, and often had to move it, adjust position of it, plus it moves around as you walk on its own. It would attract quite a bit of attention in normal society, not in a game hunting environment. It would be a display, meant to intimidate. Makes it simple to identify the bad guy target in walmart parking lot and the eyes of all of us carry permit handgun carriers would be upon him.

I think anytime you expose your weapon it is for intimidation. It's a question of who you are trying to intimidate. In this particular OP, it's obvious the few people what were open carrying were trying to intimidate any ANTIFA types that wanted to bring on a confrontation.

Agreed. To tell the truth, if we had a problem with antifa or other rioters here, my concealed carry would be in a side holster not concealed and a second in a shoulder holster for all to see, just as my permit permits. But that is me. I would never take part in an organized (or disorganized, depending on if you have enough military experience to know the difference) militia street display, meant to intimidate with numbers, equipment, and firepower. It just ain't right. And, I would never attend a riot. Police would have enough to worry about, without sorting out if I am one of the bad guys. If the police want my help, they can deputize me, give me an identifying jacket and I will follow all legal orders and support to the limits of my training. Those states should have written their laws better, because a lot of people just do not use good sense.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Agreed. To tell the truth, if we had a problem with antifa or other rioters here, my concealed carry would be in a side holster not concealed and a second in a shoulder holster for all to see, just as my permit permits. But that is me. I would never take part in an organized (or disorganized, depending on if you have enough military experience to know the difference) militia street display, meant to intimidate with numbers, equipment, and firepower. It just ain't right. And, I would never attend a riot. Police would have enough to worry about, without sorting out if I am one of the bad guys. If the police want my help, they can deputize me, give me an identifying jacket and I will follow all legal orders and support to the limits of my training. Those states should have written their laws better, because a lot of people just do not use good sense.

I would do the same. I don't go where trouble is likely to be.

Most of us CCW carriers don't want any problems. We don't want to have to use our weapons to kill another human being. If I go out after dark, strap on my shoulder holster (in cold months) or back holster and put my gun in it, I pray to God I don't have to use it.

When I want change, I write to my representative of the situation I want to see changed. Protests, riots, going to jail or prison doesn't accomplish any of that. Using violence to change a government structure is the definition of terrorism. Many years ago my martial arts instructor told me of a Chinese proverb: Only use violence for self-defense, or when mind too weak to solve problem. I try to live by that philosophy.

 

[9thIDdoc]

If you want to assume someone is carrying a firearm for purposes of intimidation the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise citizens are constantly being intimidated by police military and hunters. Deciding when a person might need a weapon is a matter of personal discretion. The Tennessee State Constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms except that local laws may govern the wearing of handguns.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So a bunch of Trumptoids planted themselves in front of the MI secretary of state's home Saturday night to protest the election, many of them were armed.
Why the fuck did anybody need to bring a gun if they wanted a truly "peaceful protest"?????
It just takes on drunk Trumptoid to cause someone harm or even death.
This woman was inside her house with her four-year-old child alone.
What the fuck is WRONG with you stupid motherfuckers????

"
Outside Benson's home on Saturday night, "at least one individual could be heard shouting 'you're murderers' within earshot of her child's bedroom," Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said in a joint statement with Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy.""""

Michigan Secretary Of State Says Armed Protesters Descended On Her Home Saturday

Saturday's protesters said they weren't there to cause trouble. The incident took place two months after the FBI thwarted an alleged plot by militia members to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer.

www.npr.org

First of all, I don't need to justify to you why I carry a gun. It is MY second amendment right. Second, I have heard of a Trump supporter that has killed anyone, unlike the Trump supporter that was MURDERED in Portland by a DNC/Antifa thug this summer. Third, these protesters are exercising their first amendment rights to address their representatives. If she doesn't like what they have to say, too bad. Fourth, why weren't you screaming when the DNC/BLM/Antifa thugs were burning/looting and defacing all summer long? And lastly if you don't want YOUR mother fucked, KEEP HER OFF THE STREETS. WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU--LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

Wasn't the gun nut down at the Texas Wall Mart (where free open carry long guns like a gold standard, is so common people did not know to be concerned until it was too late) a trump supporter. He killed several.

View attachment 426357

Maybe, but I just did a search just now with the search argument Was the Texas Wall Mart Shooter a trump supporter? This is what it returned 5 minutes ago, so I am not the only one with this impression.
View attachment 426366

So?

Anything on topic, Buttercup?

Just responding to the guy saying was unaware of any trump supporter shooting anybody and it was just the first open carry killing by a supposed trump supporter incident that came to mind, honey. But thanks for playing, dude.

You mean the hero that took out one of your child molesters?

No. He shot walmart shoppers and maybe employees. If any were child molesters, it was not reported in main stream or bat crap crazy news outlets.

Congressional baseball shooter fired at least 70 rounds, cased area for months

The shooting at a congressional baseball practice in June and the methods of the gunman behind it are described in the starkest detail yet in a report released Friday by Virginia officials.

www.cnn.com

I remember the nut ball shooter. That guy was an ass hole. He died of his injuries, which does not hurt my feelings in the least. What is your point?

Using your logic, he represents all Dimwinger supporters.

The dead nut ball shooter? No your conclusion is not logical and do not know what gave you that idea. I certainly never said it. Are you have visions or hearing voices only in your head?

So, you are backing off your obsession with the El Paso nutball shooter supposedly supporting Trump?

You mean he doesn't? Give me a link or a search argument. I'll read it. I could be wrong. It is just that nobody has shown me being wrong. They've only acted insulted for the poor killer nut ball, that I would impugn him as being a trump supporter. I showed where a lot of people had that impression. Nobody has linked to anything saying otherwise. Link away, dude.

So basically, you're saying that it's perfectly okay for you to assert that he's a Trump supporter with no evidence, and it's our job to provide evidence to prove your assertion wrong.

Alternatively, we can dismiss you as a biased jackhole and utterly ignore your unfounded accusations as so much partisan bullshit.

I gave four or five news articles saying the same thing. Your turn to show they are wrong. This ain't a court of law. It is the kangaroo court of public opinion and I do not care about yours.

"I showed you a whole bunch of leftists who made the same ASSumption I did, so that makes it true!!!"

No, it's still your turn to show me actual proof, not just biased narratives.