To those saying flipping burgers or dunking fries deserves 15.00 per hour...

[depotoo]

Envious, are you? You don’t like what their corporate pays their people, then don’t eat there. McDonald's operates 36,899 restaurants worldwide, employing more than 375,000 people as of the end of 2016. So, do remember the head of the company, overseeing all these franchises, making sure they are run properly so they can continue to be successful is more than a 40 hour work week, with the lives of many in their hands. Keeping that running smoothly is not like flipping a burger. And for the most part, there is no job stability. The average length of time a ceo is with a company, is between 2 and 3 years. They answer to a Board that can vote them out in a nano second. And they do. Stock drops for any reason, even if the economy overall is sliding? Out you go. There is a scandal at the lower levels? Out you go. Matters not your involvement, you as head are responsible for the actions of those under you, even if unaware, as you should have been. It is your head. Try keeping track of everything other managers with a company of over 300,000 employees, do at any second. If they have a family, their lives suffer from lack of stability, as well. They have to be saints to stay with their spouse that is having to work around the clock, seeing to problems that crop up. They are rarely home.
McDonalds has had 2 ceo’s since late 2012. And once out, try finding another job in that capacity quickly. It doesn’t happen and can take years.
You have no idea the amount of stress they deal with 24/7, not just 40 hours a week.
Now, are you so envious?

Well, if you don't pay your executive those wages, your competitor will. You can find a floor sweeper or shelf stocker anywhere.

Actually, given that these executives get t heir 8 figure salaries, even if the company is going under, that doesn't impress me.

So let's look at the Fox watching the McDonald's Henhouse.

McDonald's CEO gets 368% pay raise

The fast food chain’s chief executive, Steve Easterbrook, brought home a whopping $7.91 million last year — a 368% raise over his 2014 salary of $1.69 million —while low-wage McDonald’s workers are striking around the country for a livable income.

Wow? Really? so McDonald's must be doing pretty awesome if that's the case.

Errr... No.

The Continuing Decline of McDonald’s : The Corbett Report

Long-time Corbett Reporteers might recall my 2015 video, “Celebrate! McDonald’s is Dying!” where I detailed the many, many woes the fast “food” giant was dealing with at the time, including:

• The first quarterly loss in the firm’s 38 years as a publicly traded company ($343.8 million).
• Its first full-year loss ($186 million) in Japan in 11 years.
• A 58 cent per share drop on the back of a global comparable sales drop of 3.3%.

Since then, McCancer’s has been undergoing a sweeping “restructuring” that has seen many layers of lipstick slapped on their factory-farmed pig. This restructuring includes not only cosmetic changes (“All-day breakfasts and new value menus for everyone!”) but behind-the-scenes efforts to trim $500 million from the company’s operating expenses, including buyouts and layoffs at company headquarters and the re-franchising of 4,000 corporate “restaurants.”


Not to worry, though. Those McDonald's employees can always collect government benefits that Ray(cist) from Cleveland will whine about them getting.

 

[JoeB131]

Kids have expenses too

Saving for college, buying their first car, entertainment

Todays minimum wage does not buy what it used to. Young workers are forced to substitute debt for a wage that used to buy those things

As always, an excellent point. This is why you win all those awards!

When I went to college in the 1980's, I worked two minimum wage jobs. One at the university library, one at a hobby shop. I was also in the National Guard.

Now, back then, tuition at UIC was $435 a quarter for tuition, and 170 for fees. So for a year, about $1800.

At minimum wage at that time - 3.35/Hr - it would take 537 hours to make enough money to pay that. - or working about 10 hours a week.
( worked about 35 between the two jobs, plus the Guard and a full load of classes.)


WEELLLL - flash forward to today. - Tuition at UIC is $5,292 a Semester and fees are $1,589. (They went to semesters at some point) so $13,762. Minimum wage now is $7.25. So you'd have to work 36 hours a week just to pay the tuition and fees for a school like that, and that doesn't include books and things like "eating".

 

[depotoo]

Don’t have a choice? There you go again, stating people can’t take care of themselves. Please.
Maybe it’s time to take on the educational system to find a way to lower their costs, huh? Maybe get rid of top heavy administration? Spend the money more wisely. Look at how tenure is handled? Quit paying coaches outrageous amounts. Find coaches that do it for the love of the game, not the money that can be had. There are many ways to lower the costs. Demand they do it.

Even McDonald's acknowledges that their business was intended for children.
Holding businesses that are created with the employment of kids & college students responsible for the poor choices people make in life is wrong. If you're in your mid to late 20's or higher & working for minimum wage you have no one to blame but yourself. You're poor choices should not result in a 10.00 Big Mac or 4 dollar fry.

Okay, here's the thing.

Besides the immorality of a big rich corporation building it's business model on exploiting the labor of children.

The fact is, those jobs that you were supposed to get when you "Grew Up" are going away. Factory jobs are overseas or replaced by Automation. Office jobs, largely replaced by automation.

Also, the other lie is that it would cause an increase in the cost of fast food.

Raising fast-food hourly wages to $15 would raise prices by 4%, study finds

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 1.54 million people working in food preparation and serving related occupations make at or below the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. Raising their hourly wages to $15 -- a 107% increase -- would cause prices to rise an estimated 4.3%. That means your $3.99 Big Mac would wind up costing $4.16, and an average fast-food meal costing $7.00 would go up in price to $7.31.

Conservatives keep repeating the mantra......You don't have to stay in a minimum wage job, find something better

Eventually, most minimum wage workers do find something better. But that does not excuse exploiting them while they work for you or exploiting the next person you get to fill the job

You wanna play around with words that's fine, but at least be honest:

Employees are letting companies "exploit" them, it's just that simple. Don't want to be "exploited" for less than your labor is worth? Find a job that pays what you think you're worth.

Low skilled workers don't have a choice of whether to be exploited or not
Most will eventually find a higher paying job

Look at a 17 year old worker. He will work for minimum wages while he goes to college to qualify for one of those better paying jobs. Because minimum wage employment pays so poorly, that young worker will be forced to take out loans to pay for that dream of an education
When he graduates, instead of looking to buy a home or getting married, he will be saddled with education debt that those minimum wage jobs used to pay for

 

[depotoo]

No. We keep saying to get a skill set, work hard and take advantage of their training programs to move into management. If you think you can walk into any job, just do the minimum, show no desire to help the company succeed, then you will never be more than a hamburger flipper. And worth nothing more.

Even McDonald's acknowledges that their business was intended for children.
Holding businesses that are created with the employment of kids & college students responsible for the poor choices people make in life is wrong. If you're in your mid to late 20's or higher & working for minimum wage you have no one to blame but yourself. You're poor choices should not result in a 10.00 Big Mac or 4 dollar fry.

Okay, here's the thing.

Besides the immorality of a big rich corporation building it's business model on exploiting the labor of children.

The fact is, those jobs that you were supposed to get when you "Grew Up" are going away. Factory jobs are overseas or replaced by Automation. Office jobs, largely replaced by automation.

Also, the other lie is that it would cause an increase in the cost of fast food.

Raising fast-food hourly wages to $15 would raise prices by 4%, study finds

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 1.54 million people working in food preparation and serving related occupations make at or below the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. Raising their hourly wages to $15 -- a 107% increase -- would cause prices to rise an estimated 4.3%. That means your $3.99 Big Mac would wind up costing $4.16, and an average fast-food meal costing $7.00 would go up in price to $7.31.

Conservatives keep repeating the mantra......You don't have to stay in a minimum wage job, find something better

Eventually, most minimum wage workers do find something better. But that does not excuse exploiting them while they work for you or exploiting the next person you get to fill the job

 

[EverCurious]

Even McDonald's acknowledges that their business was intended for children.
Holding businesses that are created with the employment of kids & college students responsible for the poor choices people make in life is wrong. If you're in your mid to late 20's or higher & working for minimum wage you have no one to blame but yourself. You're poor choices should not result in a 10.00 Big Mac or 4 dollar fry.

Okay, here's the thing.

Besides the immorality of a big rich corporation building it's business model on exploiting the labor of children.

The fact is, those jobs that you were supposed to get when you "Grew Up" are going away. Factory jobs are overseas or replaced by Automation. Office jobs, largely replaced by automation.

Also, the other lie is that it would cause an increase in the cost of fast food.

Raising fast-food hourly wages to $15 would raise prices by 4%, study finds

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 1.54 million people working in food preparation and serving related occupations make at or below the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. Raising their hourly wages to $15 -- a 107% increase -- would cause prices to rise an estimated 4.3%. That means your $3.99 Big Mac would wind up costing $4.16, and an average fast-food meal costing $7.00 would go up in price to $7.31.

Conservatives keep repeating the mantra......You don't have to stay in a minimum wage job, find something better

Eventually, most minimum wage workers do find something better. But that does not excuse exploiting them while they work for you or exploiting the next person you get to fill the job

You wanna play around with words that's fine, but at least be honest:

Employees are letting companies "exploit" them, it's just that simple. Don't want to be "exploited" for less than your labor is worth? Find a job that pays what you think you're worth.

Low skilled workers don't have a choice of whether to be exploited or not
Most will eventually find a higher paying job

Look at a 17 year old worker. He will work for minimum wages while he goes to college to qualify for one of those better paying jobs. Because minimum wage employment pays so poorly, that young worker will be forced to take out loans to pay for that dream of an education
When he graduates, instead of looking to buy a home or getting married, he will be saddled with education debt that those minimum wage jobs used to pay for

These folks are low skilled and they are only worth X because that's what the job pays - if you're looking across the entire city for a "low skill" job and they all pay min wage - then you're only worth that min wage because there's a bunch of low skill workers; their labor isn't worth much.

On the flip side, if you're in Alaska NO ONE pays min wage because we don't have enough peeps to do the work we need done. We have too many open jobs, which means our labor is worth more money.

Supply and demand.

These folks might have to move to a location that /needs/ workers, rather than complaining about low pay when there are a lot of workers. It's still a personal choice, they choose to stay near family/friends whatever, and as a consequence are stuck with their labor being worth low pay. Hell my cousin just did this; he'd come up here to work in construction because it paid way better.

 

[depotoo]

Most places pay above minimum wage. McDonalds average is just over $10 an hour. And you get paid what the job can support, and according to your willingness to do more than required.

Kids have expenses too

Saving for college, buying their first car, entertainment

Todays minimum wage does not buy what it used to. Young workers are forced to substitute debt for a wage that used to buy those things

As always, an excellent point. This is why you win all those awards!

When I went to college in the 1980's, I worked two minimum wage jobs. One at the university library, one at a hobby shop. I was also in the National Guard.

Now, back then, tuition at UIC was $435 a quarter for tuition, and 170 for fees. So for a year, about $1800.

At minimum wage at that time - 3.35/Hr - it would take 537 hours to make enough money to pay that. - or working about 10 hours a week.
( worked about 35 between the two jobs, plus the Guard and a full load of classes.)


WEELLLL - flash forward to today. - Tuition at UIC is $5,292 a Semester and fees are $1,589. (They went to semesters at some point) so $13,762. Minimum wage now is $7.25. So you'd have to work 36 hours a week just to pay the tuition and fees for a school like that, and that doesn't include books and things like "eating".

 

[EverCurious]

It's funny for me, long before the whole cry for $15/h, maybe 15 years ago or so, the lowest paying job you'd find in my town was $12/h. My city is mostly wealthy so the kids didn't want to do the jobs. Our businesses had to pay enough to cover the additional cost of gas for folks to come from the Valley or Anchorage.

[Even today] The vast majority of low paid employees out here are either retired veterans or they're kids who's parents /force/ them to work in order to get some work experience [and holy fuck does that show in these kids work ethics.] After the housing picked back up we were able to get some more houses built to bring in more peeps. We also put in a whole neighborhood of affordable houses, and convinced Anchorage to give us some of their chap 8 funds for about 10 units in the center of town (man was that a fight.) Now we're only a little bit short on workers, low pay is $10/h but small business owners out here pay a lot of overtime so it's actually a little more than $10/h low pay with that figured in. (The franchise places, McDonalds, Carls Jr., Walgreen, Napa, etc. just force Anchorage/Valley workers to come out here to cover shifts lol)

 

[rightwinger]

Even McDonald's acknowledges that their business was intended for children.
Holding businesses that are created with the employment of kids & college students responsible for the poor choices people make in life is wrong. If you're in your mid to late 20's or higher & working for minimum wage you have no one to blame but yourself. You're poor choices should not result in a 10.00 Big Mac or 4 dollar fry.

Okay, here's the thing.

Besides the immorality of a big rich corporation building it's business model on exploiting the labor of children.

The fact is, those jobs that you were supposed to get when you "Grew Up" are going away. Factory jobs are overseas or replaced by Automation. Office jobs, largely replaced by automation.

Also, the other lie is that it would cause an increase in the cost of fast food.

Raising fast-food hourly wages to $15 would raise prices by 4%, study finds

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 1.54 million people working in food preparation and serving related occupations make at or below the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. Raising their hourly wages to $15 -- a 107% increase -- would cause prices to rise an estimated 4.3%. That means your $3.99 Big Mac would wind up costing $4.16, and an average fast-food meal costing $7.00 would go up in price to $7.31.

Conservatives keep repeating the mantra......You don't have to stay in a minimum wage job, find something better

Eventually, most minimum wage workers do find something better. But that does not excuse exploiting them while they work for you or exploiting the next person you get to fill the job

You wanna play around with words that's fine, but at least be honest:

Employees are letting companies "exploit" them, it's just that simple. Don't want to be "exploited" for less than your labor is worth? Find a job that pays what you think you're worth.

Low skilled workers don't have a choice of whether to be exploited or not
Most will eventually find a higher paying job

Look at a 17 year old worker. He will work for minimum wages while he goes to college to qualify for one of those better paying jobs. Because minimum wage employment pays so poorly, that young worker will be forced to take out loans to pay for that dream of an education
When he graduates, instead of looking to buy a home or getting married, he will be saddled with education debt that those minimum wage jobs used to pay for

These folks are low skilled and they are only worth X because that's what the job pays - if you're looking across the entire city for a "low skill" job and they all pay min wage - then you're only worth that min wage because there's a bunch of low skill workers; their labor isn't worth much.

On the flip side, if you're in Alaska NO ONE pays min wage because we don't have enough peeps to do the work we need done. We have too many open jobs, which means our labor is worth more money.

Supply and demand.

These folks might have to move to a location that /needs/ workers, rather than complaining about low pay when there are a lot of workers. It's still a personal choice, they choose to stay near family/friends whatever, and as a consequence are stuck with their labor being worth low pay. Hell my cousin just did this; he'd come up here to work in construction because it paid way better.

Very true
The lack of higher paying jobs in construction or manufacturing forces college students to accept those minimum wage positions. Their need for summer only employment also limits their choices

So employers are able to get students to work for substandard wages because minimum wage is so low and because of a lack of higher paying temporary jobs

 

[EverCurious]

Okay, here's the thing.

Besides the immorality of a big rich corporation building it's business model on exploiting the labor of children.

The fact is, those jobs that you were supposed to get when you "Grew Up" are going away. Factory jobs are overseas or replaced by Automation. Office jobs, largely replaced by automation.

Also, the other lie is that it would cause an increase in the cost of fast food.

Raising fast-food hourly wages to $15 would raise prices by 4%, study finds

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 1.54 million people working in food preparation and serving related occupations make at or below the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. Raising their hourly wages to $15 -- a 107% increase -- would cause prices to rise an estimated 4.3%. That means your $3.99 Big Mac would wind up costing $4.16, and an average fast-food meal costing $7.00 would go up in price to $7.31.

Conservatives keep repeating the mantra......You don't have to stay in a minimum wage job, find something better

Eventually, most minimum wage workers do find something better. But that does not excuse exploiting them while they work for you or exploiting the next person you get to fill the job

You wanna play around with words that's fine, but at least be honest:

Employees are letting companies "exploit" them, it's just that simple. Don't want to be "exploited" for less than your labor is worth? Find a job that pays what you think you're worth.

Low skilled workers don't have a choice of whether to be exploited or not
Most will eventually find a higher paying job

Look at a 17 year old worker. He will work for minimum wages while he goes to college to qualify for one of those better paying jobs. Because minimum wage employment pays so poorly, that young worker will be forced to take out loans to pay for that dream of an education
When he graduates, instead of looking to buy a home or getting married, he will be saddled with education debt that those minimum wage jobs used to pay for

These folks are low skilled and they are only worth X because that's what the job pays - if you're looking across the entire city for a "low skill" job and they all pay min wage - then you're only worth that min wage because there's a bunch of low skill workers; their labor isn't worth much.

On the flip side, if you're in Alaska NO ONE pays min wage because we don't have enough peeps to do the work we need done. We have too many open jobs, which means our labor is worth more money.

Supply and demand.

These folks might have to move to a location that /needs/ workers, rather than complaining about low pay when there are a lot of workers. It's still a personal choice, they choose to stay near family/friends whatever, and as a consequence are stuck with their labor being worth low pay. Hell my cousin just did this; he'd come up here to work in construction because it paid way better.

Very true
The lack of higher paying jobs in construction or manufacturing forces college students to accept those minimum wage positions. Their need for summer only employment also limits their choices

So employers are able to get students to work for substandard wages because minimum wage is so low and because of a lack of higher paying temporary jobs

And the employees, accept that pay, even when they have an option to go somewhere else that /needs/ them, and would pay them more. Still "choices we make"

I /chose/ to retire, I do not have the right to bitch that my income is technically below the poverty line. I also chose to not take a bunch of jobs because I wanted to raise my kids. My husband conversely chooses to work two to four jobs at a time; and in fact we picked a smaller house that we can always afford, he works two jobs right now so that we can live in our house and don't need our money on the market to keep it - even when the market fails and we lose damn near everything on the market (see 2008 crash.) It's all about personal choices.

 

[rightwinger]

Conservatives keep repeating the mantra......You don't have to stay in a minimum wage job, find something better

Eventually, most minimum wage workers do find something better. But that does not excuse exploiting them while they work for you or exploiting the next person you get to fill the job

You wanna play around with words that's fine, but at least be honest:

Employees are letting companies "exploit" them, it's just that simple. Don't want to be "exploited" for less than your labor is worth? Find a job that pays what you think you're worth.

Low skilled workers don't have a choice of whether to be exploited or not
Most will eventually find a higher paying job

Look at a 17 year old worker. He will work for minimum wages while he goes to college to qualify for one of those better paying jobs. Because minimum wage employment pays so poorly, that young worker will be forced to take out loans to pay for that dream of an education
When he graduates, instead of looking to buy a home or getting married, he will be saddled with education debt that those minimum wage jobs used to pay for

These folks are low skilled and they are only worth X because that's what the job pays - if you're looking across the entire city for a "low skill" job and they all pay min wage - then you're only worth that min wage because there's a bunch of low skill workers; their labor isn't worth much.

On the flip side, if you're in Alaska NO ONE pays min wage because we don't have enough peeps to do the work we need done. We have too many open jobs, which means our labor is worth more money.

Supply and demand.

These folks might have to move to a location that /needs/ workers, rather than complaining about low pay when there are a lot of workers. It's still a personal choice, they choose to stay near family/friends whatever, and as a consequence are stuck with their labor being worth low pay. Hell my cousin just did this; he'd come up here to work in construction because it paid way better.

Very true
The lack of higher paying jobs in construction or manufacturing forces college students to accept those minimum wage positions. Their need for summer only employment also limits their choices

So employers are able to get students to work for substandard wages because minimum wage is so low and because of a lack of higher paying temporary jobs

And the employees, accept that pay, even when they have an option to go somewhere else that /needs/ them, and would pay them more. Still "choices we make"

I /chose/ to retire, I do not have the right to bitch that my income is technically below the poverty line. I also chose to not take a bunch of jobs because I wanted to raise my kids. My husband conversely chooses to work two to four jobs at a time; and in fact we picked a smaller house that we can always afford, he works two jobs right now so that we can live in our house and don't need our money on the market to keep it - even when the market fails and we lose damn near everything on the market (see 2008 crash.) It's all about personal choices.

Yes there are personal choices
There are also class choices which our society makes. Are we willing to stand up for low skilled workers and provide them with a wage which allows basic survival, or do we want to use our low skilled workers as a source of cheap labor because they are the least able to defend themselves?

Our society chooses the latter

 

[EverCurious]

You wanna play around with words that's fine, but at least be honest:

Employees are letting companies "exploit" them, it's just that simple. Don't want to be "exploited" for less than your labor is worth? Find a job that pays what you think you're worth.

Low skilled workers don't have a choice of whether to be exploited or not
Most will eventually find a higher paying job

Look at a 17 year old worker. He will work for minimum wages while he goes to college to qualify for one of those better paying jobs. Because minimum wage employment pays so poorly, that young worker will be forced to take out loans to pay for that dream of an education
When he graduates, instead of looking to buy a home or getting married, he will be saddled with education debt that those minimum wage jobs used to pay for

These folks are low skilled and they are only worth X because that's what the job pays - if you're looking across the entire city for a "low skill" job and they all pay min wage - then you're only worth that min wage because there's a bunch of low skill workers; their labor isn't worth much.

On the flip side, if you're in Alaska NO ONE pays min wage because we don't have enough peeps to do the work we need done. We have too many open jobs, which means our labor is worth more money.

Supply and demand.

These folks might have to move to a location that /needs/ workers, rather than complaining about low pay when there are a lot of workers. It's still a personal choice, they choose to stay near family/friends whatever, and as a consequence are stuck with their labor being worth low pay. Hell my cousin just did this; he'd come up here to work in construction because it paid way better.

Very true
The lack of higher paying jobs in construction or manufacturing forces college students to accept those minimum wage positions. Their need for summer only employment also limits their choices

So employers are able to get students to work for substandard wages because minimum wage is so low and because of a lack of higher paying temporary jobs

And the employees, accept that pay, even when they have an option to go somewhere else that /needs/ them, and would pay them more. Still "choices we make"

I /chose/ to retire, I do not have the right to bitch that my income is technically below the poverty line. I also chose to not take a bunch of jobs because I wanted to raise my kids. My husband conversely chooses to work two to four jobs at a time; and in fact we picked a smaller house that we can always afford, he works two jobs right now so that we can live in our house and don't need our money on the market to keep it - even when the market fails and we lose damn near everything on the market (see 2008 crash.) It's all about personal choices.

Yes there are personal choices
There are also class choices which our society makes. Are we willing to stand up for low skilled workers and provide them with a wage which allows basic survival, or do we want to use our low skilled workers as a source of cheap labor because they are the least able to defend themselves?

Our society chooses the latter

Class "choices"? No one is using them for cheap labor man, they're being paid based on supply and demand, that's what I was saying. IF there's not enough no-skill or low-skill workers, their labor is worth more. IF there's a bunch of no-skill or low-skilled workers, their labor is worth /less/ because a business can hire the next dude(tte) You cannot mandate the value of no to low skill workers because it's not based on anything except supply and demand in the local sphere. (Again, see my point about Eagle River low pay.) It is not the businesses job to provide a living wage, they are /offering/ a position at X pay, take it or don't, but they are not obligated to pay what you think they "should" - the only "think they should be paid" comes from the other businesses who are competing for the worker's labor.


What you want is price fixing, something that's been despised when businesses do it for ages...

 

[rightwinger]

Low skilled workers don't have a choice of whether to be exploited or not
Most will eventually find a higher paying job

Look at a 17 year old worker. He will work for minimum wages while he goes to college to qualify for one of those better paying jobs. Because minimum wage employment pays so poorly, that young worker will be forced to take out loans to pay for that dream of an education
When he graduates, instead of looking to buy a home or getting married, he will be saddled with education debt that those minimum wage jobs used to pay for

These folks are low skilled and they are only worth X because that's what the job pays - if you're looking across the entire city for a "low skill" job and they all pay min wage - then you're only worth that min wage because there's a bunch of low skill workers; their labor isn't worth much.

On the flip side, if you're in Alaska NO ONE pays min wage because we don't have enough peeps to do the work we need done. We have too many open jobs, which means our labor is worth more money.

Supply and demand.

These folks might have to move to a location that /needs/ workers, rather than complaining about low pay when there are a lot of workers. It's still a personal choice, they choose to stay near family/friends whatever, and as a consequence are stuck with their labor being worth low pay. Hell my cousin just did this; he'd come up here to work in construction because it paid way better.

Very true
The lack of higher paying jobs in construction or manufacturing forces college students to accept those minimum wage positions. Their need for summer only employment also limits their choices

So employers are able to get students to work for substandard wages because minimum wage is so low and because of a lack of higher paying temporary jobs

And the employees, accept that pay, even when they have an option to go somewhere else that /needs/ them, and would pay them more. Still "choices we make"

I /chose/ to retire, I do not have the right to bitch that my income is technically below the poverty line. I also chose to not take a bunch of jobs because I wanted to raise my kids. My husband conversely chooses to work two to four jobs at a time; and in fact we picked a smaller house that we can always afford, he works two jobs right now so that we can live in our house and don't need our money on the market to keep it - even when the market fails and we lose damn near everything on the market (see 2008 crash.) It's all about personal choices.

Yes there are personal choices
There are also class choices which our society makes. Are we willing to stand up for low skilled workers and provide them with a wage which allows basic survival, or do we want to use our low skilled workers as a source of cheap labor because they are the least able to defend themselves?

Our society chooses the latter

Class "choices"? No one is using them for cheap labor man, they're being paid based on supply and demand, that's what I was saying. IF there's not enough no-skill or low-skill workers, their labor is worth more. IF there's a bunch of no-skill or low-skilled workers, their labor is worth /less/ because a business can hire the next dude(tte) You cannot mandate the value of no to low skill workers because it's not based on anything except supply and demand in the local sphere. (Again, see my point about Eagle River low pay.) It is not the businesses job to provide a living wage, they are /offering/ a position at X pay, take it or don't, but they are not obligated to pay what you think they "should" - the only "think they should be paid" comes from the other businesses who are competing for the worker's labor.


What you want is price fixing, something that's been despised when businesses do it for ages...

Yes.....choices

We are allowing low skilled labor to be exploited so they can provide a low cost labor pool
We established a minimum wage for just this reason. To stand up for those workers who are least able to stand up for themselves in a tight labor market. We have now ignored them for close to ten years while we agonize over the profit margins of employers over the standard of living of low skilled labor

 

[EverCurious]

These folks are low skilled and they are only worth X because that's what the job pays - if you're looking across the entire city for a "low skill" job and they all pay min wage - then you're only worth that min wage because there's a bunch of low skill workers; their labor isn't worth much.

On the flip side, if you're in Alaska NO ONE pays min wage because we don't have enough peeps to do the work we need done. We have too many open jobs, which means our labor is worth more money.

Supply and demand.

These folks might have to move to a location that /needs/ workers, rather than complaining about low pay when there are a lot of workers. It's still a personal choice, they choose to stay near family/friends whatever, and as a consequence are stuck with their labor being worth low pay. Hell my cousin just did this; he'd come up here to work in construction because it paid way better.

Very true
The lack of higher paying jobs in construction or manufacturing forces college students to accept those minimum wage positions. Their need for summer only employment also limits their choices

So employers are able to get students to work for substandard wages because minimum wage is so low and because of a lack of higher paying temporary jobs

And the employees, accept that pay, even when they have an option to go somewhere else that /needs/ them, and would pay them more. Still "choices we make"

I /chose/ to retire, I do not have the right to bitch that my income is technically below the poverty line. I also chose to not take a bunch of jobs because I wanted to raise my kids. My husband conversely chooses to work two to four jobs at a time; and in fact we picked a smaller house that we can always afford, he works two jobs right now so that we can live in our house and don't need our money on the market to keep it - even when the market fails and we lose damn near everything on the market (see 2008 crash.) It's all about personal choices.

Yes there are personal choices
There are also class choices which our society makes. Are we willing to stand up for low skilled workers and provide them with a wage which allows basic survival, or do we want to use our low skilled workers as a source of cheap labor because they are the least able to defend themselves?

Our society chooses the latter

Class "choices"? No one is using them for cheap labor man, they're being paid based on supply and demand, that's what I was saying. IF there's not enough no-skill or low-skill workers, their labor is worth more. IF there's a bunch of no-skill or low-skilled workers, their labor is worth /less/ because a business can hire the next dude(tte) You cannot mandate the value of no to low skill workers because it's not based on anything except supply and demand in the local sphere. (Again, see my point about Eagle River low pay.) It is not the businesses job to provide a living wage, they are /offering/ a position at X pay, take it or don't, but they are not obligated to pay what you think they "should" - the only "think they should be paid" comes from the other businesses who are competing for the worker's labor.


What you want is price fixing, something that's been despised when businesses do it for ages...

Yes.....choices

We are allowing low skilled labor to be exploited so they can provide a low cost labor pool
We established a minimum wage for just this reason. To stand up for those workers who are least able to stand up for themselves in a tight labor market. We have now ignored them for close to ten years while we agonize over the profit margins of employers over the standard of living of low skilled labor

It's not exploitation when that's what it's worth. Workers, at every skill and education level, are /selling/ their labor. If their skill and education are "common place" then their labor isn't worth as much - low demand. If they sell their labor for cheap, then that is /their choice/. This is not exploitation.

 

[EverCurious]

Related - Minimum Wages: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty

 

[rightwinger]

Very true
The lack of higher paying jobs in construction or manufacturing forces college students to accept those minimum wage positions. Their need for summer only employment also limits their choices

So employers are able to get students to work for substandard wages because minimum wage is so low and because of a lack of higher paying temporary jobs

And the employees, accept that pay, even when they have an option to go somewhere else that /needs/ them, and would pay them more. Still "choices we make"

I /chose/ to retire, I do not have the right to bitch that my income is technically below the poverty line. I also chose to not take a bunch of jobs because I wanted to raise my kids. My husband conversely chooses to work two to four jobs at a time; and in fact we picked a smaller house that we can always afford, he works two jobs right now so that we can live in our house and don't need our money on the market to keep it - even when the market fails and we lose damn near everything on the market (see 2008 crash.) It's all about personal choices.

Yes there are personal choices
There are also class choices which our society makes. Are we willing to stand up for low skilled workers and provide them with a wage which allows basic survival, or do we want to use our low skilled workers as a source of cheap labor because they are the least able to defend themselves?

Our society chooses the latter

Class "choices"? No one is using them for cheap labor man, they're being paid based on supply and demand, that's what I was saying. IF there's not enough no-skill or low-skill workers, their labor is worth more. IF there's a bunch of no-skill or low-skilled workers, their labor is worth /less/ because a business can hire the next dude(tte) You cannot mandate the value of no to low skill workers because it's not based on anything except supply and demand in the local sphere. (Again, see my point about Eagle River low pay.) It is not the businesses job to provide a living wage, they are /offering/ a position at X pay, take it or don't, but they are not obligated to pay what you think they "should" - the only "think they should be paid" comes from the other businesses who are competing for the worker's labor.


What you want is price fixing, something that's been despised when businesses do it for ages...

Yes.....choices

We are allowing low skilled labor to be exploited so they can provide a low cost labor pool
We established a minimum wage for just this reason. To stand up for those workers who are least able to stand up for themselves in a tight labor market. We have now ignored them for close to ten years while we agonize over the profit margins of employers over the standard of living of low skilled labor

It's not exploitation when that's what it's worth. Workers, at every skill and education level, are /selling/ their labor. If their skill and education are "common place" then their labor isn't worth as much - low demand. If they sell their labor for cheap, then that is /their choice/. This is not exploitation.

Yes, when you take advantage of workers who have no options....it is exploitation
When billion dollar corporations lobby Congress to hold down minimum wage...it is exploitation

 

[danielpalos]

Related - Minimum Wages: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty

Social services cost around fourteen dollars an hour, anyway.

 

[EverCurious]

And the employees, accept that pay, even when they have an option to go somewhere else that /needs/ them, and would pay them more. Still "choices we make"

I /chose/ to retire, I do not have the right to bitch that my income is technically below the poverty line. I also chose to not take a bunch of jobs because I wanted to raise my kids. My husband conversely chooses to work two to four jobs at a time; and in fact we picked a smaller house that we can always afford, he works two jobs right now so that we can live in our house and don't need our money on the market to keep it - even when the market fails and we lose damn near everything on the market (see 2008 crash.) It's all about personal choices.

Yes there are personal choices
There are also class choices which our society makes. Are we willing to stand up for low skilled workers and provide them with a wage which allows basic survival, or do we want to use our low skilled workers as a source of cheap labor because they are the least able to defend themselves?

Our society chooses the latter

Class "choices"? No one is using them for cheap labor man, they're being paid based on supply and demand, that's what I was saying. IF there's not enough no-skill or low-skill workers, their labor is worth more. IF there's a bunch of no-skill or low-skilled workers, their labor is worth /less/ because a business can hire the next dude(tte) You cannot mandate the value of no to low skill workers because it's not based on anything except supply and demand in the local sphere. (Again, see my point about Eagle River low pay.) It is not the businesses job to provide a living wage, they are /offering/ a position at X pay, take it or don't, but they are not obligated to pay what you think they "should" - the only "think they should be paid" comes from the other businesses who are competing for the worker's labor.


What you want is price fixing, something that's been despised when businesses do it for ages...

Yes.....choices

We are allowing low skilled labor to be exploited so they can provide a low cost labor pool
We established a minimum wage for just this reason. To stand up for those workers who are least able to stand up for themselves in a tight labor market. We have now ignored them for close to ten years while we agonize over the profit margins of employers over the standard of living of low skilled labor

It's not exploitation when that's what it's worth. Workers, at every skill and education level, are /selling/ their labor. If their skill and education are "common place" then their labor isn't worth as much - low demand. If they sell their labor for cheap, then that is /their choice/. This is not exploitation.

Yes, when you take advantage of workers who have no options....it is exploitation
When billion dollar corporations lobby Congress to hold down minimum wage...it is exploitation

They do have options though.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

And the employees, accept that pay, even when they have an option to go somewhere else that /needs/ them, and would pay them more. Still "choices we make"

I /chose/ to retire, I do not have the right to bitch that my income is technically below the poverty line. I also chose to not take a bunch of jobs because I wanted to raise my kids. My husband conversely chooses to work two to four jobs at a time; and in fact we picked a smaller house that we can always afford, he works two jobs right now so that we can live in our house and don't need our money on the market to keep it - even when the market fails and we lose damn near everything on the market (see 2008 crash.) It's all about personal choices.

Yes there are personal choices
There are also class choices which our society makes. Are we willing to stand up for low skilled workers and provide them with a wage which allows basic survival, or do we want to use our low skilled workers as a source of cheap labor because they are the least able to defend themselves?

Our society chooses the latter

Class "choices"? No one is using them for cheap labor man, they're being paid based on supply and demand, that's what I was saying. IF there's not enough no-skill or low-skill workers, their labor is worth more. IF there's a bunch of no-skill or low-skilled workers, their labor is worth /less/ because a business can hire the next dude(tte) You cannot mandate the value of no to low skill workers because it's not based on anything except supply and demand in the local sphere. (Again, see my point about Eagle River low pay.) It is not the businesses job to provide a living wage, they are /offering/ a position at X pay, take it or don't, but they are not obligated to pay what you think they "should" - the only "think they should be paid" comes from the other businesses who are competing for the worker's labor.


What you want is price fixing, something that's been despised when businesses do it for ages...

Yes.....choices

We are allowing low skilled labor to be exploited so they can provide a low cost labor pool
We established a minimum wage for just this reason. To stand up for those workers who are least able to stand up for themselves in a tight labor market. We have now ignored them for close to ten years while we agonize over the profit margins of employers over the standard of living of low skilled labor

It's not exploitation when that's what it's worth. Workers, at every skill and education level, are /selling/ their labor. If their skill and education are "common place" then their labor isn't worth as much - low demand. If they sell their labor for cheap, then that is /their choice/. This is not exploitation.

Yes, when you take advantage of workers who have no options....it is exploitation
When billion dollar corporations lobby Congress to hold down minimum wage...it is exploitation

So who is it that has no options and why?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You wanna play around with words that's fine, but at least be honest:

Employees are letting companies "exploit" them, it's just that simple. Don't want to be "exploited" for less than your labor is worth? Find a job that pays what you think you're worth.

Low skilled workers don't have a choice of whether to be exploited or not
Most will eventually find a higher paying job

Look at a 17 year old worker. He will work for minimum wages while he goes to college to qualify for one of those better paying jobs. Because minimum wage employment pays so poorly, that young worker will be forced to take out loans to pay for that dream of an education
When he graduates, instead of looking to buy a home or getting married, he will be saddled with education debt that those minimum wage jobs used to pay for

These folks are low skilled and they are only worth X because that's what the job pays - if you're looking across the entire city for a "low skill" job and they all pay min wage - then you're only worth that min wage because there's a bunch of low skill workers; their labor isn't worth much.

On the flip side, if you're in Alaska NO ONE pays min wage because we don't have enough peeps to do the work we need done. We have too many open jobs, which means our labor is worth more money.

Supply and demand.

These folks might have to move to a location that /needs/ workers, rather than complaining about low pay when there are a lot of workers. It's still a personal choice, they choose to stay near family/friends whatever, and as a consequence are stuck with their labor being worth low pay. Hell my cousin just did this; he'd come up here to work in construction because it paid way better.

Very true
The lack of higher paying jobs in construction or manufacturing forces college students to accept those minimum wage positions. Their need for summer only employment also limits their choices

So employers are able to get students to work for substandard wages because minimum wage is so low and because of a lack of higher paying temporary jobs

And the employees, accept that pay, even when they have an option to go somewhere else that /needs/ them, and would pay them more. Still "choices we make"

I /chose/ to retire, I do not have the right to bitch that my income is technically below the poverty line. I also chose to not take a bunch of jobs because I wanted to raise my kids. My husband conversely chooses to work two to four jobs at a time; and in fact we picked a smaller house that we can always afford, he works two jobs right now so that we can live in our house and don't need our money on the market to keep it - even when the market fails and we lose damn near everything on the market (see 2008 crash.) It's all about personal choices.

Yes there are personal choices
There are also class choices which our society makes. Are we willing to stand up for low skilled workers and provide them with a wage which allows basic survival, or do we want to use our low skilled workers as a source of cheap labor because they are the least able to defend themselves?

Our society chooses the latter

Besides the fact that less than 3% of our workforce makes minimum wage, of that 3% very few fall into the category of survival. Kids, seniors looking to kill time, and stay at home moms when kids are in school take those jobs for extra money.

Busting Myths About the Minimum Wage

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Kids have expenses too

Saving for college, buying their first car, entertainment

Todays minimum wage does not buy what it used to. Young workers are forced to substitute debt for a wage that used to buy those things

As always, an excellent point. This is why you win all those awards!

When I went to college in the 1980's, I worked two minimum wage jobs. One at the university library, one at a hobby shop. I was also in the National Guard.

Now, back then, tuition at UIC was $435 a quarter for tuition, and 170 for fees. So for a year, about $1800.

At minimum wage at that time - 3.35/Hr - it would take 537 hours to make enough money to pay that. - or working about 10 hours a week.
( worked about 35 between the two jobs, plus the Guard and a full load of classes.)


WEELLLL - flash forward to today. - Tuition at UIC is $5,292 a Semester and fees are $1,589. (They went to semesters at some point) so $13,762. Minimum wage now is $7.25. So you'd have to work 36 hours a week just to pay the tuition and fees for a school like that, and that doesn't include books and things like "eating".

So minimum wage should be increased to help cover the inflated costs of liberal colleges?

Ever hear of a school loan?