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And if as she grows up she comes to realize that she was wrong and can work with such students?
Both sides of the issue are not known, but I see this as the professors persecuting a student that won't comply with their wishes. They are using their authoritative power to beat her down and under no circumstances should that be allowed.
She is being ordered to undergo diversity training. Other students are not! They have pulled her out of the other students in her class and put additional requirements upon her (one wonders if they are going to make her pay for this additional requirement as well) and that is the problem.
If they think "diversity training" is a necessity for the profession then they should include in in the curriculum for all students, not just Ms. Keeton.
Immie
persecuting? what a terrible misnomer. is is 'persecution' for a medical student to study biology? chemistry? or should he whine if he's tossed from a pre-med program if he says the world is 6,000 years old?
no one is talking about 'diversity training', they're talking about the radical deciding she should pick and choose what she feels like from the course requirements.
like i said earlier, is a muslim being *persecuted* if he gets fired from a butcher shop for refusing to work with pork?
You are incorrect in this. They are talking about diversity training. They told her she could continue if she went through "remediation training" = diversity training and they want her to attend a gay pride parade.
They are not insisting that other students attend these events.
As for your comment about pre-med, if passing those courses is required for the program for all students and someone does not pass those courses then he should be expelled. That is not the case here. Here the only indication we have as to what is going on, is that the school wants to segregate her and force her to change her beliefs or lose every dime she has paid into the program and get nothing in return.
Immie
And if as she grows up she comes to realize that she was wrong and can work with such students?
Both sides of the issue are not known, but I see this as the professors persecuting a student that won't comply with their wishes. They are using their authoritative power to beat her down and under no circumstances should that be allowed.
She is being ordered to undergo diversity training. Other students are not! They have pulled her out of the other students in her class and put additional requirements upon her (one wonders if they are going to make her pay for this additional requirement as well) and that is the problem.
If they think "diversity training" is a necessity for the profession then they should include in in the curriculum for all students, not just Ms. Keeton.
Immie
persecuting? what a terrible misnomer. is is 'persecution' for a medical student to study biology? chemistry? or should he whine if he's tossed from a pre-med program if he says the world is 6,000 years old?
no one is talking about 'diversity training', they're talking about the radical deciding she should pick and choose what she feels like from the course requirements.
like i said earlier, is a muslim being *persecuted* if he gets fired from a butcher shop for refusing to work with pork?
You are incorrect in this. They are talking about diversity training. They told her she could continue if she went through "remediation training" = diversity training and they want her to attend a gay pride parade.
They are not insisting that other students attend these events.
As for your comment about pre-med, if passing those courses is required for the program for all students and someone does not pass those courses then he should be expelled. That is not the case here. Here the only indication we have as to what is going on, is that the school wants to segregate her and force her to change her beliefs or lose every dime she has paid into the program and get nothing in return.
Immie
I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread but I was thinking of this example last night....What if a student going for their law degree refused to defend a rapist in a mock trial during class...? Wouldn't the student fail the class for refusing to defend the rapist on the grounds they were morally opposed to rape?
A defense attorney needs to be able to defend clients regardless of the crime or wheher the defendant is guilty.
Yes, that's what I'm saying...So if the student refuses to perform the legal exercise on the grounds it is against their morality to ever defend a rapist, would they not also fail law school just like this counseling student failed counseling school...?
I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread but I was thinking of this example last night....What if a student going for their law degree refused to defend a rapist in a mock trial during class...? Wouldn't the student fail the class for refusing to defend the rapist on the grounds they were morally opposed to rape?
A defense attorney needs to be able to defend clients regardless of the crime or wheher the defendant is guilty.
Yes, that's what I'm saying...So if the student refuses to perform the legal exercise on the grounds it is against their morality to ever defend a rapist, would they not also fail law school just like this counseling student failed counseling school...?
Sorry, that's not to equate homosexuality with rape, just the issue of people trying to pull their morality into the picture, I think it's a good analogy. Part of the degree process is demonstrating the capacity to remain objective and professional.
Immie, there is alot more to this story than meets the eye. I don't give Ms Keeton the benefit of the doubt because I have run into fanatics like her before.
She should not be licensed by the ACA or APA .
I don't care if she gets her degree I just want her to stay the hell away from vulnerable gay clients.
She needs to work for a Christian agency.
And if as she grows up she comes to realize that she was wrong and can work with such students?
Both sides of the issue are not known, but I see this as the professors persecuting a student that won't comply with their wishes. They are using their authoritative power to beat her down and under no circumstances should that be allowed.
She is being ordered to undergo diversity training. Other students are not! They have pulled her out of the other students in her class and put additional requirements upon her (one wonders if they are going to make her pay for this additional requirement as well) and that is the problem.
If they think "diversity training" is a necessity for the profession then they should include in in the curriculum for all students, not just Ms. Keeton.
Immie
Ms Keeton is clearly in need of diversity training. Diversity training introduces the participant to cultural values other than their own.
Maybe Keeton needs to study with this gal instead of trying to make in a secular counseling program:
"Cindy Jacobs claims the power to cast out gay demons. During an evening ceremony at the conference Jacobs conducted a mass exorcism, casting out not only spirits of homosexuality but also spirits of pornography, addiction, lust, bisexuality, and perversion."
“Gay Demon” Exorcist Cindy Jacobs To Share Stage With Virginia GOP Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli SpeakEasy
And if as she grows up she comes to realize that she was wrong and can work with such students?
Both sides of the issue are not known, but I see this as the professors persecuting a student that won't comply with their wishes. They are using their authoritative power to beat her down and under no circumstances should that be allowed.
She is being ordered to undergo diversity training. Other students are not! They have pulled her out of the other students in her class and put additional requirements upon her (one wonders if they are going to make her pay for this additional requirement as well) and that is the problem.
If they think "diversity training" is a necessity for the profession then they should include in in the curriculum for all students, not just Ms. Keeton.
Immie
Ms Keeton is clearly in need of diversity training. Diversity training introduces the participant to cultural values other than their own.
Maybe Keeton needs to study with this gal instead of trying to make in a secular counseling program:
"Cindy Jacobs claims the power to cast out gay demons. During an evening ceremony at the conference Jacobs conducted a mass exorcism, casting out not only spirits of homosexuality but also spirits of pornography, addiction, lust, bisexuality, and perversion."
Gay Demon Exorcist Cindy Jacobs To Share Stage With Virginia GOP Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli SpeakEasy
Why is Ms. Keeton in need of diversity training?
Simply because she does not agree with your point of view?
Maybe some people on this site would benefit from "diversity training"... wait, there is no maybe about that.
Immie
Sorry, that's not to equate homosexuality with rape, just the issue of people trying to pull their morality into the picture, I think it's a good analogy. Part of the degree process is demonstrating the capacity to remain objective and professional.
She should have faked it and got a pass like the rest of the bigoted people who will graduate. I can just imagine a liberal counselor setting aside all of his/her biases to help a conservative Christian client.
A defense attorney needs to be able to defend clients regardless of the crime or wheher the defendant is guilty.
Yes, that's what I'm saying...So if the student refuses to perform the legal exercise on the grounds it is against their morality to ever defend a rapist, would they not also fail law school just like this counseling student failed counseling school...?
To my knowledge she has not refused to perform any of the requirements in the course except for attending a gay pride parade which no other students were required to attend and the diversity training that no other student was required to attend.
It is wrong to make her perform additional tasks that other students are not required to complete and to require "passing" grades on these additional tasks for her to graduate.
Immie
persecuting? what a terrible misnomer. is is 'persecution' for a medical student to study biology? chemistry? or should he whine if he's tossed from a pre-med program if he says the world is 6,000 years old?
no one is talking about 'diversity training', they're talking about the radical deciding she should pick and choose what she feels like from the course requirements.
like i said earlier, is a muslim being *persecuted* if he gets fired from a butcher shop for refusing to work with pork?
You are incorrect in this. They are talking about diversity training. They told her she could continue if she went through "remediation training" = diversity training and they want her to attend a gay pride parade.
They are not insisting that other students attend these events.
As for your comment about pre-med, if passing those courses is required for the program for all students and someone does not pass those courses then he should be expelled. That is not the case here. Here the only indication we have as to what is going on, is that the school wants to segregate her and force her to change her beliefs or lose every dime she has paid into the program and get nothing in return.
Immie
Is her faith in Christianity so weak that she would lose it going to a gay pride parade or taking diversity training? We don't know how Keeton behaved in class but it must have been mighty extreme for the professors to have gone this route.
You are incorrect in this. They are talking about diversity training. They told her she could continue if she went through "remediation training" = diversity training and they want her to attend a gay pride parade.
They are not insisting that other students attend these events.
As for your comment about pre-med, if passing those courses is required for the program for all students and someone does not pass those courses then he should be expelled. That is not the case here. Here the only indication we have as to what is going on, is that the school wants to segregate her and force her to change her beliefs or lose every dime she has paid into the program and get nothing in return.
Immie
Is her faith in Christianity so weak that she would lose it going to a gay pride parade or taking diversity training? We don't know how Keeton behaved in class but it must have been mighty extreme for the professors to have gone this route.
You're missing the point, Sky. She shouldn't be required to do things that other students aren't required to do, BASED UPON HER FAITH ONLY.
And I don't believe it was even that stuff that she balked at. It was being required to promise to AFFIRM homosexuality to her patients. That's NOT a requirement of a counselor, it flies in the face of her faith, and it isn't required of other students.
This is like asking black students to attend special classes (aka, segregation) based on the fact that they're black. Or asking gay students to "affirm" the lifestyle of patients who admit they bash gays. It's the same thing exactly. Just because you happen to agree with this particular bias doesn't make it ok.
The Bible apparently says that homosexuality is a sin. But so what Ms Keeton?
Sorry, that's not to equate homosexuality with rape, just the issue of people trying to pull their morality into the picture, I think it's a good analogy. Part of the degree process is demonstrating the capacity to remain objective and professional.
She should have faked it and got a pass like the rest of the bigoted people who will graduate. I can just imagine a liberal counselor setting aside all of his/her biases to help a conservative Christian client.
I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.
The Bible apparently says that homosexuality is a sin. But so what Ms Keeton?
This does not make any sense.
Yes, the Bible states that homosexuality is a sin, but so is a man trimming his beard.
The Bible does not say that homosexuality is the "unforgivable" sin.
My belief about the "Law", is that it was given to mankind to show us that we are all sinners and that we need a savior. It shows us all that we are separated from God. The law condemns while the Gospel saves. I believe that is how Ms. Keeton sees the Law and the Gospel. I do not believe that she sees the homosexual as "lost" anymore than she sees any other human being as lost.
That being said, she needs to keep her beliefs to herself in a professional setting. If she can't do that then she should not be in the profession.
That being said, it is not up to ASU to fail her on religious grounds which is exactly what they seem to be attempting to do here. If she has passed the course work, which it appears she has and they are attempting to fail her because she believes that homosexuality is a choice because that is what her faith has taught her. Even though she has discussed conversion therapy as a viable method, it is still the responsibility of the school to give her the degree.
She has paid the university for the education and the degree. She has not asked them to license her to practice psychology. That comes at the next level. It is up to the state to determine whether or not she is qualified to practice.
Immie
She should have faked it and got a pass like the rest of the bigoted people who will graduate. I can just imagine a liberal counselor setting aside all of his/her biases to help a conservative Christian client.
I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.
Another student was ousted from another school when she asked to refer a client to a different counselor.
Not this one, though. Keeton never refused to treat gay clients; nor did she say anything that could be interpreted as an intent to preach to them or even bring up her religion in counseling sessions.
The only "standards" that she is seeking to be exempted from are the ones that the university has added to her requirement to graduate that are not being forced upon all students i.e. diversity training and attendance at a gay pride parade.
Immie
From just page 5 of the 2009 Standards of The Council for Accreditation of Counseling and Related Educational Programs (CACREP) ..
I. The Academic Unit
P. The program faculty conducts a systematic developmental assessment of each students progress throughout the program, including consideration of the students academic performance, professional development, and personal development. Consistent with established institutional due process policy and the American Counseling Associations (ACA) code of ethics and other relevant codes of ethics and standards of practice, if evaluations indicate that a student is not appropriate for the program, faculty members help facilitate the students transition out of the program and, if possible, into a more appropriate area of study.
The ASU Counselor Education program is committed to ensuring that graduates both understand and can fulfill their obligations to set personal values aside and empower clients to solve their own problems. As counselor educators in a CACREP accredited program, faculty have a duty to ensure that those completing our program will affirm and abide by these ethical codes in all counseling situations.
The counseling profession requires its practitioners to recognize that people set and adhere to their own moral compass. The professional counselor's job is to help clients clarify their current feelings and behaviors and to help them reach the goals that they have determine for themselves, not to dictate what those goals should be or what morals they should possess, or what values they should adopt."
" Each person has the right to be respected, be treated with dignity and have access to a comprehensive school counseling program that advocates for and affirms all students from diverse populations regardless of ethnic/racial status, age, economic status, special needs, English as a second language or other language group, immigration status, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity/expression[/Bn, family type, religious/spiritual identity and appearance ..
A defense attorney needs to be able to defend clients regardless of the crime or wheher the defendant is guilty.
Yes, that's what I'm saying...So if the student refuses to perform the legal exercise on the grounds it is against their morality to ever defend a rapist, would they not also fail law school just like this counseling student failed counseling school...?
To my knowledge she has not refused to perform any of the requirements in the course except for attending a gay pride parade which no other students were required to attend and the diversity training that no other student was required to attend.
It is wrong to make her perform additional tasks that other students are not required to complete and to require "passing" grades on these additional tasks for her to graduate.
Immie
Yes, that's what I'm saying...So if the student refuses to perform the legal exercise on the grounds it is against their morality to ever defend a rapist, would they not also fail law school just like this counseling student failed counseling school...?
To my knowledge she has not refused to perform any of the requirements in the course except for attending a gay pride parade which no other students were required to attend and the diversity training that no other student was required to attend.
It is wrong to make her perform additional tasks that other students are not required to complete and to require "passing" grades on these additional tasks for her to graduate.
Immie
Actually, that was not a requirement - it was one of several suggestions for ways in which she could learn more about the gay community.
To my knowledge she has not refused to perform any of the requirements in the course except for attending a gay pride parade which no other students were required to attend and the diversity training that no other student was required to attend.
It is wrong to make her perform additional tasks that other students are not required to complete and to require "passing" grades on these additional tasks for her to graduate.
Immie
Actually, that was not a requirement - it was one of several suggestions for ways in which she could learn more about the gay community.
What harm is there in attending a gay pride parade?
persecuting? what a terrible misnomer. is is 'persecution' for a medical student to study biology? chemistry? or should he whine if he's tossed from a pre-med program if he says the world is 6,000 years old?
no one is talking about 'diversity training', they're talking about the radical deciding she should pick and choose what she feels like from the course requirements.
like i said earlier, is a muslim being *persecuted* if he gets fired from a butcher shop for refusing to work with pork?
You are incorrect in this. They are talking about diversity training. They told her she could continue if she went through "remediation training" = diversity training and they want her to attend a gay pride parade.
They are not insisting that other students attend these events.
As for your comment about pre-med, if passing those courses is required for the program for all students and someone does not pass those courses then he should be expelled. That is not the case here. Here the only indication we have as to what is going on, is that the school wants to segregate her and force her to change her beliefs or lose every dime she has paid into the program and get nothing in return.
Immie
Is her faith in Christianity so weak that she would lose it going to a gay pride parade or taking diversity training? We don't know how Keeton behaved in class but it must have been mighty extreme for the professors to have gone this route.
