Tolerance? Not for Christians...

... Jennifer Keeton, who has sued Augusta State University to keep from getting expelled for not repudiating her statements about homosexuality. Keeton expressed her biblical perspective on the subject in and out of class while working toward a degree in counseling, and the school mandated a “remediation plan” that appears to have required her to renounce her Christian doctrine in order to gain a diploma from the school. The school has responded that a bias against homosexuality would disqualify Keeton from certification, a position that would put most Christians in Keeton’s position.

Sounds like a pretty clear Constitutional violation to me. This is a State school, after all.

Just a word of advice never trust PC to give you a fair look at a story. There's a bit more to it as discussed in the thread.
 
Why is Ms. Keeton in need of diversity training?

Simply because she does not agree with your point of view?

Maybe some people on this site would benefit from "diversity training"... wait, there is no maybe about that. ;)

Immie

IMO everyone can benefit from diversity training. One of the things it does is help a person look at their own biases.

Obviously, I have biases myself.

Keeton is biased against homosexuality and she wouldn't shut up about it in class. She brought her bias to the faculty's attention repeatedly.

I don't know why it seems so threatening to a supposedly strong Christian to attend diversity training.

My guess is her faith is weak.

I don't agree with you.

Personally, I think "forced re-education" is a tragedy. You simply cannot force someone to believe what you want them to believe. The whole idea is fascist in my humble opinion. This is why I call this brainwashing.

She doesn't want to be there. They are putting her into diversity (aka political correctness) training at the barrel of a gun and they are wrong for doing so.

A person has to want to learn in order to learn. It cannot be forced upon them.

And you all are jumping the gun, in your repeated claims that she will not maintain a professional demeanor in a counseling session.

She has stated her beliefs to professors and classmates. That is a far cry from an authoritative counselor forcing her beliefs upon a client.

Immie

More to the point her professors have serious doubts about her ability to set aside her extreme views about homosexuality.

It's not my decision, it's the schools.
 
Yes, that's what I'm saying...So if the student refuses to perform the legal exercise on the grounds it is against their morality to ever defend a rapist, would they not also fail law school just like this counseling student failed counseling school...?

To my knowledge she has not refused to perform any of the requirements in the course except for attending a gay pride parade which no other students were required to attend and the diversity training that no other student was required to attend.

It is wrong to make her perform additional tasks that other students are not required to complete and to require "passing" grades on these additional tasks for her to graduate.

Immie




Yeah, I'm mixing up this story with the the other one who refused to even meet with them as part of her random assignment.

Still, the professional standard needs to be met either way if you want to achieve a professional degree...Not a Christian standard or a Liberal standard, a professional standard, be it law or counseling...

A law student required to defend a criminal is not being forced to "embrace" a crime, is he? His legal defense does not equal an endorsement of the crime, right?

No it does not mean embracing the crime. The constitution guarantees everyone the right to legal counsel, but it does not insist that an attorney take every case that comes his way. Public defenders assist those who cannot find an attorney to take their case whether it be for financial reasons or the heinousness of the crime.

I do not believe Ms. Keeton's opponents on this thread have proven that she would not maintain a professional manner in a counseling session, although, I have to admit, I have not proven the opposite as we do not have all the facts before us.

I do, however, believe that it is wrong to convict Ms. Keeton before she has committed a crime and that is what I believe her opponents have done here.

Immie
 
Is her faith in Christianity so weak that she would lose it going to a gay pride parade or taking diversity training? We don't know how Keeton behaved in class but it must have been mighty extreme for the professors to have gone this route.

You're missing the point, Sky. She shouldn't be required to do things that other students aren't required to do, BASED UPON HER FAITH ONLY.

And I don't believe it was even that stuff that she balked at. It was being required to promise to AFFIRM homosexuality to her patients. That's NOT a requirement of a counselor, it flies in the face of her faith, and it isn't required of other students.

This is like asking black students to attend special classes (aka, segregation) based on the fact that they're black. Or asking gay students to "affirm" the lifestyle of patients who admit they bash gays. It's the same thing exactly. Just because you happen to agree with this particular bias doesn't make it ok.

Allie--

She is not being asked to take diversity training based her her religion. She is being asked to take because of her anti-gay bigotry.

Bigotry is not a Christian value.

Bigotry is not a Christian value, but you have not proven that she would behave in an bigoted manner. She doesn't agree with the current thinking on the issue, but you have not proven that she would do anything at all to hurt a client.

Immie
 
I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.

Really? You surprise me.

Immie

Truth is I counsel one Christian woman but we don't discuss her faith. She knows I'm gay. I assume if that was an issue for her she would go elsewhere.

Not all Christians are homophobes.

Oh good grief....no one is "afraid" of homosexuals, except perhaps the idiots at that Baptist Church, and trust me, most Christians aren't like that.

Why would you feel the need to tell a client you are counseling that you are gay? It's none of their business and I can't see how it could have anything to do with the counseling session. Perhaps that's why you think a Christian counselor would express their beliefs during counseling? Just because you feel the need to push your beliefs on others doesn't mean everyone is that way.
 
You're missing the point, Sky. She shouldn't be required to do things that other students aren't required to do, BASED UPON HER FAITH ONLY.

And I don't believe it was even that stuff that she balked at. It was being required to promise to AFFIRM homosexuality to her patients. That's NOT a requirement of a counselor, it flies in the face of her faith, and it isn't required of other students.

This is like asking black students to attend special classes (aka, segregation) based on the fact that they're black. Or asking gay students to "affirm" the lifestyle of patients who admit they bash gays. It's the same thing exactly. Just because you happen to agree with this particular bias doesn't make it ok.

Allie--

She is not being asked to take diversity training based her her religion. She is being asked to take because of her anti-gay bigotry.

Bigotry is not a Christian value.

Bigotry is not a Christian value, but you have not proven that she would behave in an bigoted manner. She doesn't agree with the current thinking on the issue, but you have not proven that she would do anything at all to hurt a client.

Immie

I don't have to prove it, Immie. I'm not in court.

Once again, the ethics say that she needs to affirm the lives of her clients even when their values differ from hers.

She isn't willing to do that.
 
Bigotry is not a Christian value, but you have not proven that she would behave in an bigoted manner. She doesn't agree with the current thinking on the issue, but you have not proven that she would do anything at all to hurt a client.

Immie

no, bigotry is NOT a christian value. but it's truly amazing how many christians use it as a means of justifying their bigotry.


she HAS behaved in a bigoted manner. HER TRAINING REQUIRES THAT SHE COUNSEL EVERYONE.

why are you intentionally ignoring that? because it's being required of a christian?

jesus would have been the first person to counsel anyone.... regardless of sexuality.

but i guess this is ok for yet another *wah wah, i'm a poor christian victim* thread.
 
Allie--

She is not being asked to take diversity training based her her religion. She is being asked to take because of her anti-gay bigotry.

Bigotry is not a Christian value.

Bigotry is not a Christian value, but you have not proven that she would behave in an bigoted manner. She doesn't agree with the current thinking on the issue, but you have not proven that she would do anything at all to hurt a client.

Immie

I don't have to prove it, Immie. I'm not in court.

Once again, the ethics say that she needs to affirm the lives of her clients even when their values differ from hers.

She isn't willing to do that.

So you affirm the life of your Christian client even though you never discuss her religion????

I'm amazed she hasn't seen your hatred for Christians, you seem to be dripping with it.
 
Really? You surprise me.

Immie

Truth is I counsel one Christian woman but we don't discuss her faith. She knows I'm gay. I assume if that was an issue for her she would go elsewhere.

Not all Christians are homophobes.

Oh good grief....no one is "afraid" of homosexuals, except perhaps the idiots at that Baptist Church, and trust me, most Christians aren't like that.

Why would you feel the need to tell a client you are counseling that you are gay? It's none of their business and I can't see how it could have anything to do with the counseling session. Perhaps that's why you think a Christian counselor would express their beliefs during counseling? Just because you feel the need to push your beliefs on others doesn't mean everyone is that way.

I didn't tell the client that I'm gay, I just live openly. I don't push homosexuality on anyone Sheila. Stop being ridiculous.

Plenty of Christians oppose marriage equality, LDS and Catholics for example.
 
The Bible apparently says that homosexuality is a sin. But so what Ms Keeton?

This does not make any sense.

Yes, the Bible states that homosexuality is a sin, but so is a man trimming his beard.

The Bible does not say that homosexuality is the "unforgivable" sin.

My belief about the "Law", is that it was given to mankind to show us that we are all sinners and that we need a savior. It shows us all that we are separated from God. The law condemns while the Gospel saves. I believe that is how Ms. Keeton sees the Law and the Gospel. I do not believe that she sees the homosexual as "lost" anymore than she sees any other human being as lost.

That being said, she needs to keep her beliefs to herself in a professional setting. If she can't do that then she should not be in the profession.

That being said, it is not up to ASU to fail her on religious grounds which is exactly what they seem to be attempting to do here. If she has passed the course work, which it appears she has and they are attempting to fail her because she believes that homosexuality is a choice because that is what her faith has taught her. Even though she has discussed conversion therapy as a viable method, it is still the responsibility of the school to give her the degree.

She has paid the university for the education and the degree. She has not asked them to license her to practice psychology. That comes at the next level. It is up to the state to determine whether or not she is qualified to practice.

Immie

It is up to the university to insist that Keeton be educated.

Education does not equal forced restructuring of knowledge.

Education is the presentation of knowledge not the realignment of thought.

Education is the process whereby individuals are taught theory. It does not mean that they have to agree with said theories.

Immie
 
Bigotry is not a Christian value, but you have not proven that she would behave in an bigoted manner. She doesn't agree with the current thinking on the issue, but you have not proven that she would do anything at all to hurt a client.

Immie

I don't have to prove it, Immie. I'm not in court.

Once again, the ethics say that she needs to affirm the lives of her clients even when their values differ from hers.

She isn't willing to do that.

So you affirm the life of your Christian client even though you never discuss her religion????

I'm amazed she hasn't seen your hatred for Christians, you seem to be dripping with it.

Yes, I affirm the life of my clients. I don't hate Christians. I hate bigots.
 
She should have faked it and got a pass like the rest of the bigoted people who will graduate. I can just imagine a liberal counselor setting aside all of his/her biases to help a conservative Christian client.

I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.

Really? You surprise me.

Immie



I would expect any and all counseling students in graduate degree programs to meet the American Counseling Association code of ethics and educational standards in order to receive an ACA accredited degree. My understanding is once you achieve the degree (partially by demonstrating the ability to remain objective) the counselor would be free to refer a patient out to another counselor.



BTW - If Christian counselors want to create their own professional association, code of ethics and educational programs aren't they free to do so...?
 
What harm is there in attending a gay pride parade?

None. I just prefer accuracy.

You've got a poknt. Most of us don't go to Pride parades. We just live our lives.

Not according to the media....you guys are all out there busting your butts in extravagent costumes with feathers and sequins and interesting special effects, while in your spare time you're busy making sure that your agenda is passed at every political level perverting our country's children by forcing them to learn about those who are different from Wonderbread, Mom, the Flag, and Apple Pie and before you know it dontcha know NAMBLA will be an official political party and beatiality and non-biblical bigamy the rule of the land :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


I think I managed to cover all the issues in one run-on sentance ;)














On a serious note, you are preaching to the choir. Most people do not define themselves by their sexuality.
 
Last edited:
I wouldn't counsel a conservative Christian. I would refer to another counselor.

Really? You surprise me.

Immie



I would expect any and all counseling students in graduate degree programs to meet the American Counseling Association code of ethics and educational standards in order to receive an ACA accredited degree. My understanding is once you achieve the degree (partially by demonstrating the ability to remain objective) the counselor would be free to refer a patient out to another counselor.



BTW - If Christian counselors want to create their own professional association, code of ethics and educational programs aren't they free to do so...?

You are such a breath of fresh air. I'd rep you again but I have to spread it around.
 
I don't have to prove it, Immie. I'm not in court.

Once again, the ethics say that she needs to affirm the lives of her clients even when their values differ from hers.

She isn't willing to do that.

So you affirm the life of your Christian client even though you never discuss her religion????

I'm amazed she hasn't seen your hatred for Christians, you seem to be dripping with it.

Yes, I affirm the life of my clients. I don't hate Christians. I hate bigots.

And you don't seem to be able to separate between the two.
 
Education does not equal forced restructuring of knowledge.

Education is the presentation of knowledge not the realignment of thought.

Education is the process whereby individuals are taught theory. It does not mean that they have to agree with said theories.

Immie

how is educating her any different from remedial reading for someone who is failing?
 
I think the core question here is whether a State school can take this action over a difference of religious or political belief. And that includes any State certification process. To me, the school is behaving in a way that is suspect under the Constitution, and the same would be true for any State school taking action against someone for espousing pro-homosexual beliefs.
 
So you affirm the life of your Christian client even though you never discuss her religion????

I'm amazed she hasn't seen your hatred for Christians, you seem to be dripping with it.

Yes, I affirm the life of my clients. I don't hate Christians. I hate bigots.

And you don't seem to be able to separate the two.

That's your opinion. I have plenty of Christian friends. Some of them on this very forum even though we disagree passionately.
 
I think the core question here is whether a State school can take this action over a difference of religious or political belief. And that includes any State certification process. To me, the school is behaving in a way that is suspect under the Constitution, and the same would be true for any State school taking action against someone for espousing pro-homosexual beliefs.

And the courts will decide if that's true.
 

Forum List

Back
Top