Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[Immanuel]

She has forced students and professors in and out of class to listen to her views on faith. She has stated that Christian morals are for ALL people. She has stated she cannot affirm homosexuality even though the ACA and APA guidelines require her to. How can she counsel gay people? She must be a real nutcase about it or she wouldn't have drawn this kind of problem to herself.

Forced?

That was not stated in the article. It said that she has discussed her faith with others. All I can tell by that is that she and some "friends" have had discussions about homosexuality and she was willing to speak her mind about the issue... kind of like what is going on right here.

Am I forcing you to read my point of view?

Didn't think so!

Immie

Yeah, you're forcing me to read your point of view. Just kidding.

Have you ever been around a religous fanatic? They can't shut up about it for five seconds.

What do you mean? I'm a fanatic.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Forced?

That was not stated in the article. It said that she has discussed her faith with others. All I can tell by that is that she and some "friends" have had discussions about homosexuality and she was willing to speak her mind about the issue... kind of like what is going on right here.

Am I forcing you to read my point of view?

Didn't think so!

Immie

Yeah, you're forcing me to read your point of view. Just kidding.

Have you ever been around a religous fanatic? They can't shut up about it for five seconds.

What do you mean? I'm a fanatic.

Immie

Keeton is a fanatic. Now if you insist on telling me that YOUR Christianity should be MY moral compass then, yeah, you're inching that way yourself. Comparing the crime of rape to homosexuality as moral equivlents is pretty extreme, Immie.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Keeton has been asked by the counseling department to open her mind to gay and lesbian people and learn to accept them. Keeton wants the entire profession of psychology and counseling to drop their ethical standards for her and adopt her narrow verson of Christianity, even though it would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.

Patently false.

She wasn't asked to "open her mind". She was assigned extra training based on her religion, and told to publicly state her support of a viewpoint she doesn't hold, and which NOBODY ELSE IS REQUIRED TO PUBLICLY SUPPORT.

Link? Source?

She has never said she wants any of the ethical considerations changed, nor has she done anything that is harmful to gay or lesbian clients, or stated her intent to do anything harmful.

Of course she hasn't. She doesn't have to. Her demands for a degree require that she is either EXEMPT from some of the standards or that the standards be changed. She is unwilling to meet them as they now stand.

Try again.

That's the point, Coyote. Keeton wants special status. She wants to be exempt from ethical standards of her counseling education program and still expects a degree.

 

[Immanuel]

Keeton has been asked by the counseling department to open her mind to gay and lesbian people and learn to accept them. Keeton wants the entire profession of psychology and counseling to drop their ethical standards for her and adopt her narrow verson of Christianity, even though it would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.

Wrong!

All she has done is to state her own opinion which happens to be different than the university and your own. It is not a crime to have a differing opinion.

Immie

It does not meet professional counseling standards to impose your personal moral views on clients. Keeton's opinions are more important to her than adopting the ethical standards of the counseling profession.

Counselors meet their clients where they are.

"Augusta State University, a unit of the University System of Georgia, does not discriminate against any individuals on the basis of their personal, social, political, or religious beliefs or views. No student is asked to change their religious beliefs or views in order to participate in any program.

I will refer you to the Board of Regents Policy Manual: 4.1.2 Non-Discrimination: The Board of Regents stipulates that no USG student, on the ground of race, color, sex, religion, creed, national origin, age or handicap, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or otherwise be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity conducted by the Board of Regents of the University System of Georgia or any of its several institutions now in existence or hereafter established (BOR Minutes, October, 1969, p. 154; 1979-80, p. 15).

ASU adheres to the American Counseling Association Code of Ethics. Standard A.1.a of the code of ethics states that the "primary responsibility of counselors is to respect the dignity and to promote the welfare of clients."

The ASU Counselor Education program is committed to ensuring that graduates both understand and can fulfill their obligations to set personal values aside and empower clients to solve their own problems. As counselor educators in a CACREP accredited program, faculty have a duty to ensure that those completing our program will affirm and abide by these ethical codes in all counseling situations.
The counseling profession requires its practitioners to recognize that people set and adhere to their own moral compass. The professional counselor's job is to help clients clarify their current feelings and behaviors and to help them reach the goals that they have determine for themselves, not to dictate what those goals should be or what morals they should possess, or what values they should adopt."
Augusta State releases new statement on student lawsuit

Well then it appears the university has failed in its non-discrimination policy.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Wrong!

All she has done is to state her own opinion which happens to be different than the university and your own. It is not a crime to have a differing opinion.

Immie

It does not meet professional counseling standards to impose your personal moral views on clients. Keeton's opinions are more important to her than adopting the ethical standards of the counseling profession.

Counselors meet their clients where they are.

"Augusta State University, a unit of the University System of Georgia, does not discriminate against any individuals on the basis of their personal, social, political, or religious beliefs or views. No student is asked to change their religious beliefs or views in order to participate in any program.

I will refer you to the Board of Regents Policy Manual: 4.1.2 Non-Discrimination: The Board of Regents stipulates that no USG student, on the ground of race, color, sex, religion, creed, national origin, age or handicap, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or otherwise be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity conducted by the Board of Regents of the University System of Georgia or any of its several institutions now in existence or hereafter established (BOR Minutes, October, 1969, p. 154; 1979-80, p. 15).

ASU adheres to the American Counseling Association Code of Ethics. Standard A.1.a of the code of ethics states that the "primary responsibility of counselors is to respect the dignity and to promote the welfare of clients."

The ASU Counselor Education program is committed to ensuring that graduates both understand and can fulfill their obligations to set personal values aside and empower clients to solve their own problems. As counselor educators in a CACREP accredited program, faculty have a duty to ensure that those completing our program will affirm and abide by these ethical codes in all counseling situations.
The counseling profession requires its practitioners to recognize that people set and adhere to their own moral compass. The professional counselor's job is to help clients clarify their current feelings and behaviors and to help them reach the goals that they have determine for themselves, not to dictate what those goals should be or what morals they should possess, or what values they should adopt."
Augusta State releases new statement on student lawsuit

Well then it appears the university has failed in its non-discrimination policy.

Immie

Right. It expects Christians to comply with education standards just like everyone else.

 

[Immanuel]

She is unwilling to allow gay people to just be who they are without wanting to change them because of her religious beliefs which she cannot shut up about.

Keeton wants the right to discriminate against gays and claim victim of discrimination when she's busted on it.

I'm a counselor btw. Counseling 101 attend to the client without judgment.

Bologna, she has never said that she wants to discriminate against gays, nor did she state that she would not allow them to be who they were.

I can have perfectly normal conversations with people that I do not agree with and they can be who they are as long as they are not forcing me to change my beliefs. I am pretty sure that Ms. Keeton can and will do the same. I'm pretty sure that she can sit down and have a perfectly normal discussion with a homosexual without even bringing up her faith. Of course, if for some reason that becomes impossible for her in a given situation, I would guess she would refer the client elsewhere.

Immie

Keeton thinks she is perfectly qualified to counsel gays and lesbians. I disagree. It is not clear whether she would refer a gay person to another counselor.

You are assuming facts not in evidence. It is not clear that Keeton would be able to keep her mouth shut about her religious beliefs in a counseling session.

It's her mouth that's gotten her into trouble.

I'm sure there is more to the story than any of us know. My guess is that Keeton is an unbalanced religious fanatic who injects Christianity into every discussion.

Have you ever been around a religous fanatic?

I am assuming facts not in evidence!? For 430+ posts in this thread and at least one other thread, you and Coyote have been assuming facts not in evidence regarding her professional demeanor and her faith! Now, you want to claim that I am assuming facts not in evidence?

She is attending college for crying out loud. She should be discussing her beliefs and they should want her to discuss it so that they can discuss it in the open and teach about why conversion therapy is the wrong method of dealing with the issue.

My guess is that Keeton is an unbalanced religious fanatic who injects Christianity into every discussion.

You are not assuming much are you?

I already answered your question re religious fanatics. Geez! Give me time to catch up, will ya?

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Discussing your religion, as a counselor openly in a counseling session is inappropriate.

And where pray tell, does she indicate that she would do so?

I have not seen that stated anywhere except by you and Coyote. It is a fabrication on your side to claim that she would.

Immie

We don't know for sure but we can infer from her own words and actions what she is likely to do. You assume she wouldn't impose her religous beliefs on a client and that's made up by you. I assume her professors know more about Keeton's conduct than we do and they can't talk about it because of the lawsuit.

She was having open discussions in a graduate program setting. One would think that is a good place to have such discussions.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

In a related case:

"Malhotra says her Christian faith compels her to speak out against homosexuality. But the Georgia Institute of Technology, where she's a senior, bans speech that puts down others because of their sexual orientation.

Malhotra sees that as an unacceptable infringement on her right to religious expression. So she's demanding that Georgia Tech revoke its tolerance policy.

With her lawsuit, the 22-year-old student joins a growing campaign to force public schools, state colleges and private workplaces to eliminate policies protecting gays and lesbians from harassment. The religious right aims to overturn a broad range of common tolerance programs: diversity training that promotes acceptance of gays and lesbians, speech codes that ban harsh words against homosexuality, anti-discrimination policies that require college clubs to open their membership to all."
Christians Sue For Right To Be Intolerant...

 

[Sky Dancer]

And where pray tell, does she indicate that she would do so?

I have not seen that stated anywhere except by you and Coyote. It is a fabrication on your side to claim that she would.

Immie

We don't know for sure but we can infer from her own words and actions what she is likely to do. You assume she wouldn't impose her religous beliefs on a client and that's made up by you. I assume her professors know more about Keeton's conduct than we do and they can't talk about it because of the lawsuit.

She was having open discussions in a graduate program setting. One would think that is a good place to have such discussions.

Immie

You don't know how she behaved in class because the professors aren't talking. Her views were extreme enough that she required a remediation program.

 

[Immanuel]

She's said a great deal more than that Immie. She has stated the Christian morals apply to ALL people. She has stated that she is unwilling to attend diversity training because she does not want to 'affirm the homosexual lifestyle'. Diversity training is designed to develop tolerance toward otehrs who are different from you. Keeton has stated that her biblical principles come before professional ethics.

She is also rumored to support conversion therapy.

The university has not gotten to tell their side of the story due to the lawsuit.

You assume a lot of positive things toward Keeton and I don't. The facts are not in evidence.

I am sure other Christian students are enrolled in the counseling program and they haven't made a big deal out of their religion. Keeton has.

Morals, and Christian morals, do apply to everyone, just as the law applies to everyone. That does not mean that a counselor will discuss those morals with a client. It sure as heck does not mean that a counselor will condemn her client for being immoral especially when she knows that it will do her client harm.

A homosexual may or may not believe homosexuality is immoral. If it is immoral then the person's beliefs are irrelevant. I see it as a sin just as I see adultery as a sin. I do not believe the homosexual is any more guilty of sin than I am for things that I have done that I will not discuss here... note: adultery is not one of those things... however, I know for a fact that I have done things that many others would consider immoral. Guess, what, even though I justify those actions, they were still immoral.

A counselor is not going to bring up my immorality unless I go to him/her and say that I have a problem stemming from such and such and act. Then the counselor will try to get me to open up about my feelings and maybe he/she will shed some light on what is bothering me, but all in all, it will have been me that brought up the issue, not the counselor. I don't believe Counselor Keeton will behave any differently.

Immie

Christian morals don't apply to me. I'm a Buddhist. Homosexuality is not a sin to me. Keeton has no business proselytizing her religion to clients. Christianity is not appropriate discussion unless Keeton is a minister.

Here are my values:

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrowness."
Fourteen Precepts of Engaged Buddhism

Seeing as what this conversation is all about, this post seem hypocritical.

Yes, morals apply to you, just as all laws do. IF something is immoral then it is immoral whether or not an individual believes it to be immoral.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Keeton has been asked by the counseling department to open her mind to gay and lesbian people and learn to accept them. Keeton wants the entire profession of psychology and counseling to drop their ethical standards for her and adopt her narrow verson of Christianity, even though it would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.

Patently false.

She wasn't asked to "open her mind". She was assigned extra training based on her religion, and told to publicly state her support of a viewpoint she doesn't hold, and which NOBODY ELSE IS REQUIRED TO PUBLICLY SUPPORT.

Link? Source?

She has never said she wants any of the ethical considerations changed, nor has she done anything that is harmful to gay or lesbian clients, or stated her intent to do anything harmful.

Of course she hasn't. She doesn't have to. Her demands for a degree require that she is either EXEMPT from some of the standards or that the standards be changed. She is unwilling to meet them as they now stand.

Try again.

The only "standards" that she is seeking to be exempted from are the ones that the university has added to her requirement to graduate that are not being forced upon all students i.e. diversity training and attendance at a gay pride parade.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Morals, and Christian morals, do apply to everyone, just as the law applies to everyone. That does not mean that a counselor will discuss those morals with a client. It sure as heck does not mean that a counselor will condemn her client for being immoral especially when she knows that it will do her client harm.

A homosexual may or may not believe homosexuality is immoral. If it is immoral then the person's beliefs are irrelevant. I see it as a sin just as I see adultery as a sin. I do not believe the homosexual is any more guilty of sin than I am for things that I have done that I will not discuss here... note: adultery is not one of those things... however, I know for a fact that I have done things that many others would consider immoral. Guess, what, even though I justify those actions, they were still immoral.

A counselor is not going to bring up my immorality unless I go to him/her and say that I have a problem stemming from such and such and act. Then the counselor will try to get me to open up about my feelings and maybe he/she will shed some light on what is bothering me, but all in all, it will have been me that brought up the issue, not the counselor. I don't believe Counselor Keeton will behave any differently.

Immie

Christian morals don't apply to me. I'm a Buddhist. Homosexuality is not a sin to me. Keeton has no business proselytizing her religion to clients. Christianity is not appropriate discussion unless Keeton is a minister.

Here are my values:

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrowness."
Fourteen Precepts of Engaged Buddhism

Seeing as what this conversation is all about, this post seem hypocritical.

Yes, morals apply to you, just as all laws do. IF something is immoral then it is immoral whether or not an individual believes it to be immoral.

Immie

The point is YOUR Christian morals DON'T apply to me. Homosexuality is NOT a sin in my religion.

 

[Immanuel]

It does not meet professional counseling standards to impose your personal moral views on clients. Keeton's opinions are more important to her than adopting the ethical standards of the counseling profession.

Counselors meet their clients where they are.

"Augusta State University, a unit of the University System of Georgia, does not discriminate against any individuals on the basis of their personal, social, political, or religious beliefs or views. No student is asked to change their religious beliefs or views in order to participate in any program.

I will refer you to the Board of Regents Policy Manual: 4.1.2 Non-Discrimination: The Board of Regents stipulates that no USG student, on the ground of race, color, sex, religion, creed, national origin, age or handicap, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or otherwise be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity conducted by the Board of Regents of the University System of Georgia or any of its several institutions now in existence or hereafter established (BOR Minutes, October, 1969, p. 154; 1979-80, p. 15).

ASU adheres to the American Counseling Association Code of Ethics. Standard A.1.a of the code of ethics states that the "primary responsibility of counselors is to respect the dignity and to promote the welfare of clients."

The ASU Counselor Education program is committed to ensuring that graduates both understand and can fulfill their obligations to set personal values aside and empower clients to solve their own problems. As counselor educators in a CACREP accredited program, faculty have a duty to ensure that those completing our program will affirm and abide by these ethical codes in all counseling situations.
The counseling profession requires its practitioners to recognize that people set and adhere to their own moral compass. The professional counselor's job is to help clients clarify their current feelings and behaviors and to help them reach the goals that they have determine for themselves, not to dictate what those goals should be or what morals they should possess, or what values they should adopt."
Augusta State releases new statement on student lawsuit

Well then it appears the university has failed in its non-discrimination policy.

Immie

Right. It expects Christians to comply with education standards just like everyone else.

Funny, how it does not want to comply with those standards.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Well then it appears the university has failed in its non-discrimination policy.

Immie

Right. It expects Christians to comply with education standards just like everyone else.

Funny, how it does not want to comply with those standards.

Immie

Funny how Christians have to comply with the same professional standards in counseling as everyone else and Keeton isn't willing to.

 

[Immanuel]

We don't know for sure but we can infer from her own words and actions what she is likely to do. You assume she wouldn't impose her religous beliefs on a client and that's made up by you. I assume her professors know more about Keeton's conduct than we do and they can't talk about it because of the lawsuit.

She was having open discussions in a graduate program setting. One would think that is a good place to have such discussions.

Immie

You don't know how she behaved in class because the professors aren't talking. Her views were extreme enough that she required a remediation program.

It seems more likely that the professors simply do not like her point of view and are forcing her out of the program.

If you ask me, she would have been better off, simply seeking a transfer to a more open minded university. One where the professors and administration believed in the freedoms of speech and religion, because for some reason these "professional" teachers do not like her and she has no way in hell of ever graduating from that school now even if she completes their brainwashing endeavors.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

She was having open discussions in a graduate program setting. One would think that is a good place to have such discussions.

Immie

You don't know how she behaved in class because the professors aren't talking. Her views were extreme enough that she required a remediation program.

It seems more likely that the professors simply do not like her point of view and are forcing her out of the program.

If you ask me, she would have been better off, simply seeking a transfer to a more open minded university. One where the professors and administration believed in the freedoms of speech and religion, because for some reason these "professional" teachers do not like her and she has no way in hell of ever graduating from that school now even if she completes their brainwashing endeavors.

Immie

Your making this part up. You don't know that the professors simply don't like her point of view.

I agree Keeton should transfer to a Bible college where her narrow minded view of homosexuality and hatred of gay people is normative.

Keeton is already brainwashed. She is a religous fanatic.

 

[Immanuel]

Christian morals don't apply to me. I'm a Buddhist. Homosexuality is not a sin to me. Keeton has no business proselytizing her religion to clients. Christianity is not appropriate discussion unless Keeton is a minister.

Here are my values:

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrowness."
Fourteen Precepts of Engaged Buddhism

Seeing as what this conversation is all about, this post seem hypocritical.

Yes, morals apply to you, just as all laws do. IF something is immoral then it is immoral whether or not an individual believes it to be immoral.

Immie

The point is YOUR Christian morals DON'T apply to me. Homosexuality is NOT a sin in my religion.

No, the point is that morality is not based upon religion or faith. What is moral is not dependent upon one's faith at all. Most people agree that murder is immoral. Does that mean that a Psychopathic Killer who does not see murder as being immoral is moral because he doesn't think it is immoral?

No, of course not, what is moral and immoral does not bare upon what we as individuals believe. Something that is immoral is immoral whether or not we all see it as being immoral.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Right. It expects Christians to comply with education standards just like everyone else.

Funny, how it does not want to comply with those standards.

Immie

Funny how Christians have to comply with the same professional standards in counseling as everyone else and Keeton isn't willing to.

Again, totally unsubstantiated.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

You don't know how she behaved in class because the professors aren't talking. Her views were extreme enough that she required a remediation program.

It seems more likely that the professors simply do not like her point of view and are forcing her out of the program.

If you ask me, she would have been better off, simply seeking a transfer to a more open minded university. One where the professors and administration believed in the freedoms of speech and religion, because for some reason these "professional" teachers do not like her and she has no way in hell of ever graduating from that school now even if she completes their brainwashing endeavors.

Immie

Your making this part up. You don't know that the professors simply don't like her point of view.

I agree Keeton should transfer to a Bible college where her narrow minded view of homosexuality and hatred of gay people is normative.

Keeton is already brainwashed. She is a religous fanatic.

I'm not making anything up. It is evident that if they liked her as a person, they would not be insisting on brainwashing her.

It seems to me that Ms. Keeton is the one that is open minded of the two parties. The university surely is not.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Funny, how it does not want to comply with those standards.

Immie

Funny how Christians have to comply with the same professional standards in counseling as everyone else and Keeton isn't willing to.

Again, totally unsubstantiated.

Immie

We''ll see what happens. Alliance Defense Fund lost the last case like this.