Tolerance? Not for Christians...

Excuse my language, Coyote, but that is a fucking lie. I'm tired of hearing it. She has not shown that, she has not yet worked in a professional capacity, and she has publically stated (which I've posted in this thread somewhere) that she could indeed separate her beliefs from her profession.

She has publically stated that she would not and could not "affirm" a homosexual's lifestyle. Affirmation is part of the professional standard, and has been quoted numerous times.

If she can not do that, then how can she "indeed separate her beliefs from her profession"? Perhaps it's these contradictions that concern the faculty in her program. Counseling young people involves a high degree of empathy - it is not moralistic and judgemental. If you are unable seperate out your personal feelings in order to empathize with a client, are you truely able to do the job? The remediation program she is supposed to undergo is supposed to help her with that.

In Sky's own post she stated that the APA has allowances for referral in a situation where your beliefs will not allow you to work with someone. It wouldn't surprise me if the school purposely went out of their way to place her into this situation so they could do exactly what they're doing.

You totally skip over the fact that she is not yet a professional, and just like a medical student is not yet a professional he must go through rotations showing he has the ability to work in a variety of specialties even though he will eventually only be assuming one. She needs to show she can do the whole caboodle before opting out of part of it.

It wouldn't surprise me if the group that is supporting (and likely paying) for her lawsuit is the one putting her up to this. I highly doubt she is the only Christian in that program, but she is the only one who apparently can't do what is academically required in order to graduate from that program.

So she has a client come to her that says he is sexually stimulated by forcing women to have sex with him, raping them. By your standards of affirmation she would have to tell the rapist, "it is okay to rape."

She does have to affirm homosexuality. She simply cannot do harm to her patient and as far as I can tell, she has never indicated that she would willingly do so.

Immie

It's extremely insulting to compare the crime of rape with counsleing a client in a consensual long term monogamous homosexual realtionship.
 
There is no evidence of that. You are basing it solely upon her religion.

And that's illegal.

Keeton is unwilling to keep her religious beliefs to herself, and that is against professional counseling standards.

No, it isn't. That's one of the lies you keep spouting. You take a single phrase, attach the WRONG MEANING to it, and then present it like it's evidence of something. You're wrong.

Besides which, following your religion and discussing your religion OPENLY is a fucking protected right in this country. Classrooms are the arena of ideas, and one of the places where the right to voice unpopular opinions is MOST PARTICULARLY protected.

Discussing your religion, as a counselor openly in a counseling session is inappropriate.
 
I'm sorry, but you guys continue to dishonestly insist that she cannot behave as a professional.

The code of ethics basically says do no harm, it does not say that one must affirm homosexuality. I have not seen one thing from her where she states that she will condemn such students. She simply says she will not tell them that it is okay to be gay.

Immie

Tell me how she is doing no harm if she tells gays people their very being is wrong, immoral and sinful?

SHE HAS NEVER SAID THAT TO HER CLIENTS AND HAS NEVER GIVEN ANY INDICATION SHE INTENDS TO. IT'S A FALSE PREMISE.

And, by the way, while she said she believes homosexuality is a sin, she ALSO STATED THAT ALL PEOPLE SIN. Homosexuality is a sin partly because it's SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE. So do you think Christians discriminate against all sexually active people who aren't married?

You're perpetuating lies, Sky. That's all there is to it. And you're supporting fascism.

Keeton has no business telling a gay client that they are sinning. That's the job of a minister.

The one with identity confusion is Keeton. She doesn't know whether she wants to be a minister or a secular counselor.


She's not in a religous college she is in a secular university and she can't cut the mustard.

Why is it I can debate this topic without calling you names and you cannot do the same with me?
 
NO.

The heart of the issue is not what she may or may not do in her professional life once she attains a degree.

The heart of the issue is the process towards getting the degree which requires that:
- she show she is able to meet stated professional standards required for counseling a diverse group of people, including gays and lesbians.
- as a student she must show she can do this - and the word "affirmation" is a key one - even though as a professional she may opt out of it and refer said client to another therapist.

She has paid for it.

She has not yet earned it - you don't get advanced degrees simply on demand or as a "right" or by passing coursework like an UG degree.

It's not up to you or anyone else to SPECULATE on what she may or may not do in the future, and persecute her by witholding her degree because of something she MAY or MAY NOT do. Why is that concept so hard to grasp? Our entire judicial system is based on it for God's sake.

She has already said and done enouigh things to put her degree in jeopardy. Thank God she isn't practicing in the counseling field yet. She's a loose cannon.

The only thing that has been proven in the articles is that her professors and the administration at ASU do not like her because of her belief that homosexuality is a choice.

That is the only thing that has been proven to date.

Immie
 
No. The fascists aren't doing a damn thing.

Tell me, how do you feel about voodoo in the medical field? That question, along with faith healing, remain hanging.

So when did she force her clients to listen to her views on faith?

Oh, that's right. Never.

She has forced students and professors in and out of class to listen to her views on faith. She has stated that Christian morals are for ALL people. She has stated she cannot affirm homosexuality even though the ACA and APA guidelines require her to. How can she counsel gay people? She must be a real nutcase about it or she wouldn't have drawn this kind of problem to herself.

Forced?

That was not stated in the article. It said that she has discussed her faith with others. All I can tell by that is that she and some "friends" have had discussions about homosexuality and she was willing to speak her mind about the issue... kind of like what is going on right here.

Am I forcing you to read my point of view?

Didn't think so!

Immie
 
It's not up to you or anyone else to SPECULATE on what she may or may not do in the future, and persecute her by witholding her degree because of something she MAY or MAY NOT do. Why is that concept so hard to grasp? Our entire judicial system is based on it for God's sake.

She has already said and done enouigh things to put her degree in jeopardy. Thank God she isn't practicing in the counseling field yet. She's a loose cannon.

The only thing that has been proven in the articles is that her professors and the administration at ASU do not like her because of her belief that homosexuality is a choice.

That is the only thing that has been proven to date.

Immie

She's said a great deal more than that Immie. She has stated the Christian morals apply to ALL people. She has stated that she is unwilling to attend diversity training because she does not want to 'affirm the homosexual lifestyle'. Diversity training is designed to develop tolerance toward otehrs who are different from you. Keeton has stated that her biblical principles come before professional ethics.

She is also rumored to support conversion therapy.

The university has not gotten to tell their side of the story due to the lawsuit.

You assume a lot of positive things toward Keeton and I don't. The facts are not in evidence.

I am sure other Christian students are enrolled in the counseling program and they haven't made a big deal out of their religion. Keeton has.
 
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I think testimony in the court case will be interesting. Especially, if the student who had the conversation with Keeton about conversion therapy comes forth and tells his or her story.

"

I agree.

Also, in the document you linked to - where Keeton stated she was being asked to change her beliefs in a meeting - there was an email from that faculty member saying that she was misunderstanding what had been said.

I am sure a lot more will come out if this lawsuit stands.

Keeton has been asked by the counseling department to open her mind to gay and lesbian people and learn to accept them. Keeton wants the entire profession of psychology and counseling to drop their ethical standards for her and adopt her narrow verson of Christianity, even though it would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.

Wrong!

All she has done is to state her own opinion which happens to be different than the university and your own. It is not a crime to have a differing opinion.

Immie
 
So when did she force her clients to listen to her views on faith?

Oh, that's right. Never.

She has forced students and professors in and out of class to listen to her views on faith. She has stated that Christian morals are for ALL people. She has stated she cannot affirm homosexuality even though the ACA and APA guidelines require her to. How can she counsel gay people? She must be a real nutcase about it or she wouldn't have drawn this kind of problem to herself.

Forced?

That was not stated in the article. It said that she has discussed her faith with others. All I can tell by that is that she and some "friends" have had discussions about homosexuality and she was willing to speak her mind about the issue... kind of like what is going on right here.

Am I forcing you to read my point of view?

Didn't think so!

Immie

Yeah, you're forcing me to read your point of view. Just kidding.

Have you ever been around a religous fanatic? They can't shut up about it for five seconds.
 
I agree.

Also, in the document you linked to - where Keeton stated she was being asked to change her beliefs in a meeting - there was an email from that faculty member saying that she was misunderstanding what had been said.

I am sure a lot more will come out if this lawsuit stands.

Keeton has been asked by the counseling department to open her mind to gay and lesbian people and learn to accept them. Keeton wants the entire profession of psychology and counseling to drop their ethical standards for her and adopt her narrow verson of Christianity, even though it would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.

Wrong!

All she has done is to state her own opinion which happens to be different than the university and your own. It is not a crime to have a differing opinion.

Immie

It does not meet professional counseling standards to impose your personal moral views on clients. Keeton's opinions are more important to her than adopting the ethical standards of the counseling profession.

Counselors meet their clients where they are.

"Augusta State University, a unit of the University System of Georgia, does not discriminate against any individuals on the basis of their personal, social, political, or religious beliefs or views. No student is asked to change their religious beliefs or views in order to participate in any program.

I will refer you to the Board of Regents Policy Manual: 4.1.2 Non-Discrimination: The Board of Regents stipulates that no USG student, on the ground of race, color, sex, religion, creed, national origin, age or handicap, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or otherwise be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity conducted by the Board of Regents of the University System of Georgia or any of its several institutions now in existence or hereafter established (BOR Minutes, October, 1969, p. 154; 1979-80, p. 15).

ASU adheres to the American Counseling Association Code of Ethics. Standard A.1.a of the code of ethics states that the "primary responsibility of counselors is to respect the dignity and to promote the welfare of clients."

The ASU Counselor Education program is committed to ensuring that graduates both understand and can fulfill their obligations to set personal values aside and empower clients to solve their own problems. As counselor educators in a CACREP accredited program, faculty have a duty to ensure that those completing our program will affirm and abide by these ethical codes in all counseling situations.
The counseling profession requires its practitioners to recognize that people set and adhere to their own moral compass. The professional counselor's job is to help clients clarify their current feelings and behaviors and to help them reach the goals that they have determine for themselves, not to dictate what those goals should be or what morals they should possess, or what values they should adopt."
http://www.wrdw.com/politics/headlines/99347524.html
 
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Umm...no. Are you a counseler? Part of the profession involves seperating your own personal feelings from those of your client. As a profession, it also does not cast value or moral judgements on the client.

Sky Dancer made it pretty clear (as she has throughout this debate):



Ms. Keeton should have been well aware of the tenets of her chosen profession by this time yet she chose to continue. Personally, I have an issue the use of animal testing in such industries as cosmetics. Would it be appropriate for me to go into a program that involves animal subjects, and then complain that it is against my belief system when the requirements of my program requires me to handle those animals? I wouldn't think so.

In fact, I don't understand why, if her beliefs were so strong that she couldn't follow the neccessary tenets - she did not go into a religious counseling vocation which would have been more appropriate for her goals and beliefs?

Why does she, and her supporters think that the entire profession must be remodeled to accommodate her particular belief system?

I'm sorry, but you guys continue to dishonestly insist that she cannot behave as a professional.

The code of ethics basically says do no harm, it does not say that one must affirm homosexuality. I have not seen one thing from her where she states that she will condemn such students. She simply says she will not tell them that it is okay to be gay.

Immie

Tell me how she is doing no harm if she tells gays people their very being is wrong, immoral and sinful?

There is no need for her to discuss that with her and if the client comes to her looking for affirmation that she cannot give, she has a professional responsibility to refer the client to another counselor. I've seen no indication that she would fail to do so.

Immie
 
I'm sorry, but you guys continue to dishonestly insist that she cannot behave as a professional.

The code of ethics basically says do no harm, it does not say that one must affirm homosexuality. I have not seen one thing from her where she states that she will condemn such students. She simply says she will not tell them that it is okay to be gay.

Immie

Tell me how she is doing no harm if she tells gays people their very being is wrong, immoral and sinful?

There is no need for her to discuss that with her and if the client comes to her looking for affirmation that she cannot give, she has a professional responsibility to refer the client to another counselor. I've seen no indication that she would fail to do so.

Immie

Her professors thought otherwise.

"The counseling profession requires its practitioners to recognize that people set and adhere to their own moral compass. The professional counselor's job is to help clients clarify their current feelings and behaviors and to help them reach the goals that they have determined for themselves, not to dictate what those goals should be, what morals they should possess, or what values they should adopt."

Keeton has stated that Christian morals apply to ALL people and she is unwilling to budge on that.
 
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Yes. Counselors must accept the very being of their clients. That's how emotional healing happens. Homosexuality is not a 'lifestyle' anymore than heterosexuality is a lifestyle. It's just what you are in your very being. It's how you love.

No, they must NOT. You're perpetuating a series of lies, Sky. There is no requirement that counselors "accept the very being" of anyone. There is no evidence that this woman has said anything that implicates she will treat homosexuals in any manner different than the accepted manner. She was grilled on her personally held beliefs, she stated them, and now she's being discriminated against because of them.

She is unwilling to allow gay people to just be who they are without wanting to change them because of her religious beliefs which she cannot shut up about.

Keeton wants the right to discriminate against gays and claim victim of discrimination when she's busted on it.

I'm a counselor btw. Counseling 101 attend to the client without judgment.

Bologna, she has never said that she wants to discriminate against gays, nor did she state that she would not allow them to be who they were.

I can have perfectly normal conversations with people that I do not agree with and they can be who they are as long as they are not forcing me to change my beliefs. I am pretty sure that Ms. Keeton can and will do the same. I'm pretty sure that she can sit down and have a perfectly normal discussion with a homosexual without even bringing up her faith. Of course, if for some reason that becomes impossible for her in a given situation, I would guess she would refer the client elsewhere.

Immie
 
She has publically stated that she would not and could not "affirm" a homosexual's lifestyle. Affirmation is part of the professional standard, and has been quoted numerous times.

If she can not do that, then how can she "indeed separate her beliefs from her profession"? Perhaps it's these contradictions that concern the faculty in her program. Counseling young people involves a high degree of empathy - it is not moralistic and judgemental. If you are unable seperate out your personal feelings in order to empathize with a client, are you truely able to do the job? The remediation program she is supposed to undergo is supposed to help her with that.



You totally skip over the fact that she is not yet a professional, and just like a medical student is not yet a professional he must go through rotations showing he has the ability to work in a variety of specialties even though he will eventually only be assuming one. She needs to show she can do the whole caboodle before opting out of part of it.

It wouldn't surprise me if the group that is supporting (and likely paying) for her lawsuit is the one putting her up to this. I highly doubt she is the only Christian in that program, but she is the only one who apparently can't do what is academically required in order to graduate from that program.

So she has a client come to her that says he is sexually stimulated by forcing women to have sex with him, raping them. By your standards of affirmation she would have to tell the rapist, "it is okay to rape."

She does have to affirm homosexuality. She simply cannot do harm to her patient and as far as I can tell, she has never indicated that she would willingly do so.

Immie

It's extremely insulting to compare the crime of rape with counsleing a client in a consensual long term monogamous homosexual realtionship.

Straw man argument.

I'm not comparing the two just pointing out that by your standard of affirmation, a counselor would be required to affirm a rapists behavior as well.

Immie
 
No, they must NOT. You're perpetuating a series of lies, Sky. There is no requirement that counselors "accept the very being" of anyone. There is no evidence that this woman has said anything that implicates she will treat homosexuals in any manner different than the accepted manner. She was grilled on her personally held beliefs, she stated them, and now she's being discriminated against because of them.

She is unwilling to allow gay people to just be who they are without wanting to change them because of her religious beliefs which she cannot shut up about.

Keeton wants the right to discriminate against gays and claim victim of discrimination when she's busted on it.

I'm a counselor btw. Counseling 101 attend to the client without judgment.

Bologna, she has never said that she wants to discriminate against gays, nor did she state that she would not allow them to be who they were.

I can have perfectly normal conversations with people that I do not agree with and they can be who they are as long as they are not forcing me to change my beliefs. I am pretty sure that Ms. Keeton can and will do the same. I'm pretty sure that she can sit down and have a perfectly normal discussion with a homosexual without even bringing up her faith. Of course, if for some reason that becomes impossible for her in a given situation, I would guess she would refer the client elsewhere.

Immie

Keeton thinks she is perfectly qualified to counsel gays and lesbians. I disagree. It is not clear whether she would refer a gay person to another counselor.

You are assuming facts not in evidence. It is not clear that Keeton would be able to keep her mouth shut about her religious beliefs in a counseling session.

It's her mouth that's gotten her into trouble.

I'm sure there is more to the story than any of us know. My guess is that Keeton is an unbalanced religious fanatic who injects Christianity into every discussion.

Have you ever been around a religous fanatic?
 
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Keeton is unwilling to keep her religious beliefs to herself, and that is against professional counseling standards.

No, it isn't. That's one of the lies you keep spouting. You take a single phrase, attach the WRONG MEANING to it, and then present it like it's evidence of something. You're wrong.

Besides which, following your religion and discussing your religion OPENLY is a fucking protected right in this country. Classrooms are the arena of ideas, and one of the places where the right to voice unpopular opinions is MOST PARTICULARLY protected.

Discussing your religion, as a counselor openly in a counseling session is inappropriate.

And where pray tell, does she indicate that she would do so?

I have not seen that stated anywhere except by you and Coyote. It is a fabrication on your side to claim that she would.

Immie
 
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No, it isn't. That's one of the lies you keep spouting. You take a single phrase, attach the WRONG MEANING to it, and then present it like it's evidence of something. You're wrong.

Besides which, following your religion and discussing your religion OPENLY is a fucking protected right in this country. Classrooms are the arena of ideas, and one of the places where the right to voice unpopular opinions is MOST PARTICULARLY protected.

Discussing your religion, as a counselor openly in a counseling session is inappropriate.

And where pray tell, does she indicate that she would do so?

I have not seen that stated anywhere except by you and Coyote. It is a fabrication on your side to claim that she would.

Immie

Immie

We don't know for sure but we can infer from her own words and actions what she is likely to do. You assume she wouldn't impose her religous beliefs on a client and that's made up by you. I assume her professors know more about Keeton's conduct than we do and they can't talk about it because of the lawsuit.
 
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She has already said and done enouigh things to put her degree in jeopardy. Thank God she isn't practicing in the counseling field yet. She's a loose cannon.

The only thing that has been proven in the articles is that her professors and the administration at ASU do not like her because of her belief that homosexuality is a choice.

That is the only thing that has been proven to date.

Immie

She's said a great deal more than that Immie. She has stated the Christian morals apply to ALL people. She has stated that she is unwilling to attend diversity training because she does not want to 'affirm the homosexual lifestyle'. Diversity training is designed to develop tolerance toward otehrs who are different from you. Keeton has stated that her biblical principles come before professional ethics.

She is also rumored to support conversion therapy.

The university has not gotten to tell their side of the story due to the lawsuit.

You assume a lot of positive things toward Keeton and I don't. The facts are not in evidence.

I am sure other Christian students are enrolled in the counseling program and they haven't made a big deal out of their religion. Keeton has.

Morals, and Christian morals, do apply to everyone, just as the law applies to everyone. That does not mean that a counselor will discuss those morals with a client. It sure as heck does not mean that a counselor will condemn her client for being immoral especially when she knows that it will do her client harm.

A homosexual may or may not believe homosexuality is immoral. If it is immoral then the person's beliefs are irrelevant. I see it as a sin just as I see adultery as a sin. I do not believe the homosexual is any more guilty of sin than I am for things that I have done that I will not discuss here... note: adultery is not one of those things... however, I know for a fact that I have done things that many others would consider immoral. Guess, what, even though I justify those actions, they were still immoral.

A counselor is not going to bring up my immorality unless I go to him/her and say that I have a problem stemming from such and such and act. Then the counselor will try to get me to open up about my feelings and maybe he/she will shed some light on what is bothering me, but all in all, it will have been me that brought up the issue, not the counselor. I don't believe Counselor Keeton will behave any differently.

Edit:

Rumors! Rumors are so reliable! We should throw Ms Keeton into a prison cell and make her write, "I do not believe in conversion therapy. Conversion therapy is detrimental to homosexuals," one million times before she is released on parole.

No, you don't assume anything positive about Ms. Keeton. However, you assume a lot of negative about her which knowing you are a Buddhist is surprising to me.

What do other Christian students have to do with this? All that says is that they either do not agree with her or are not strong enough in their faith to bring up the subject. One would have to wonder if the reason they were afraid to discuss their beliefs is that they have seen the treatment Ms. Keeton received for speaking her mind.

Don't you find it tragic that a person in an institute of higher education would be intimidated enough to not be able to discuss personal beliefs, right or wrong? I believe Ms. Keeton is wrong in her beliefs but I do not believe she should be inhibited from discussing them.

Diversity training = forced political correctness and should be outlawed. As long as she is not being harmful to her clients there should be no issue here and so far she has not seen a single client. I am sure if she is ever licensed she will further her training and her supervisors will work with her.

Immie
 
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Baloney. You are just making things up to make yourself feel better. I have friends that are gay. I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but if one of them got beat up, I sure as heck wouldn't be standing there saying "It's because you're gay." I'd be out beating the crap out of the person that beat him up. No "Christian" would be blaming the victim and I highly doubt this woman would. You really don't understand "Christians", do you?

What is she "making up"?

Do YOU really understand Christians?

Do you think they can all be lumped into one group, like Muslims so frequently are? Is that why you choose to engage in the "No true Scotsman" fallacy?

They are diverse and across the board when it comes to their interpretation of their chosen religion and in their attitudes towards homosexuality.

This student is just one person out of what are undoubtedly a majority of Christian students in that program. Her particular interpretation of her faith makes her unable to "affirm" or empathize with a homosexual client at this time.

Quit making this into an attack on Christians. It isn't. It's one person, who may not be able to meet the standards required by her degree program, and wants to be exempt form those standards.
 
The only thing that has been proven in the articles is that her professors and the administration at ASU do not like her because of her belief that homosexuality is a choice.

That is the only thing that has been proven to date.

Immie

She's said a great deal more than that Immie. She has stated the Christian morals apply to ALL people. She has stated that she is unwilling to attend diversity training because she does not want to 'affirm the homosexual lifestyle'. Diversity training is designed to develop tolerance toward otehrs who are different from you. Keeton has stated that her biblical principles come before professional ethics.

She is also rumored to support conversion therapy.

The university has not gotten to tell their side of the story due to the lawsuit.

You assume a lot of positive things toward Keeton and I don't. The facts are not in evidence.

I am sure other Christian students are enrolled in the counseling program and they haven't made a big deal out of their religion. Keeton has.

Morals, and Christian morals, do apply to everyone, just as the law applies to everyone. That does not mean that a counselor will discuss those morals with a client. It sure as heck does not mean that a counselor will condemn her client for being immoral especially when she knows that it will do her client harm.

A homosexual may or may not believe homosexuality is immoral. If it is immoral then the person's beliefs are irrelevant. I see it as a sin just as I see adultery as a sin. I do not believe the homosexual is any more guilty of sin than I am for things that I have done that I will not discuss here... note: adultery is not one of those things... however, I know for a fact that I have done things that many others would consider immoral. Guess, what, even though I justify those actions, they were still immoral.

A counselor is not going to bring up my immorality unless I go to him/her and say that I have a problem stemming from such and such and act. Then the counselor will try to get me to open up about my feelings and maybe he/she will shed some light on what is bothering me, but all in all, it will have been me that brought up the issue, not the counselor. I don't believe Counselor Keeton will behave any differently.

Immie

Christian morals don't apply to me. I'm a Buddhist. Homosexuality is not a sin to me. Keeton has no business proselytizing her religion to clients. Christianity is not appropriate discussion unless Keeton is a minister.

Here are my values:

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others renounce fanaticism and narrowness."
Fourteen Precepts of Engaged Buddhism
 
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I agree.

Also, in the document you linked to - where Keeton stated she was being asked to change her beliefs in a meeting - there was an email from that faculty member saying that she was misunderstanding what had been said.

I am sure a lot more will come out if this lawsuit stands.

Keeton has been asked by the counseling department to open her mind to gay and lesbian people and learn to accept them. Keeton wants the entire profession of psychology and counseling to drop their ethical standards for her and adopt her narrow verson of Christianity, even though it would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.

Patently false.

She wasn't asked to "open her mind". She was assigned extra training based on her religion, and told to publicly state her support of a viewpoint she doesn't hold, and which NOBODY ELSE IS REQUIRED TO PUBLICLY SUPPORT.

Link? Source?

She has never said she wants any of the ethical considerations changed, nor has she done anything that is harmful to gay or lesbian clients, or stated her intent to do anything harmful.

Of course she hasn't. She doesn't have to. Her demands for a degree require that she is either EXEMPT from some of the standards or that the standards be changed. She is unwilling to meet them as they now stand.

Try again.

fail_cat2.jpg
 

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