Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[Sky Dancer]

She has forced them to listen to her, huh?? I'm sorry, but that's hilarious. Where in the hell did you come up with that? You are not capable of looking at this situation from a logical point of view, that much is obvious. So, there's no point in further wasting my time.

Just when I was about to give up my side.

Yeah... right....

I've given this alot of thought. I've been looking at how and why it pushed my buttons.

 

[Newby]

I say let the college give her a degree but don't license her.

Yeah! We finally agree on something!!! It's not up the college to deny her the degree she has earned.

Unless, they can. It will be up to the courts now.

She has worked and paid for that degree, if you're in favor of stripping it from her, then you're no different from the christians you accuse of keeping marriage from you.

 

[Sky Dancer]

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT! YOU ARE SPECULATING, AND YOU'RE ON A WITCH HUNT! Not only that, you've called her a loon and questioned her sanity. How does that make you any different than her? IT DOESN'T!

Calm down. If Keeton were mature she would choose her battles more carefully.

I'm sure Keeton is not the only Christian in the counseling program, she's just the only one goofy enough to make a Federal case out of it.

I'm perfectly calm, Sky, but I appreciate your concern.

You were screaming with all caps.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Yeah! We finally agree on something!!! It's not up the college to deny her the degree she has earned.

Unless, they can. It will be up to the courts now.

She has worked and paid for that degree, if you're in favor of stripping it from her, then you're no different from the christians you accuse of keeping marriage from you.

Stop making this about me. It's not up to me. I think Keeton has a point and the unversity has a point.

We'll see what happens.

 

[Coyote]

Again, no. It has zip to do with potential future actions. She must be able to show she can meet certain requirements, including professional standards while IN the degree program in order to earn the degree otherwise the degree is meaningless at best and dangerous to a potential client, at worst. A degree is not an entitlement.

And how was that evaluated? How was it shown that she could not meet 'certain requirements'? What requirements didn't she meet? Please be specific.

The program itself is the determining body and it's faculty would be the ones who are qualified to evaluate her progress. That's the way education works.

As to what requirements - that has been posted about ad nauseum, and very specifically by SkyDancer, including links - go back and read the posts, I'm not going to repeat it again and again and again, which seems to be what is going on here.

She's never said that she couldn't adhere to the standards of her chosen profession, she's never demonstrated that she couldn't adhere to the standards of her chosen profession. If she has, please provide the evidence that supports the comment that you made.

She HAS specifically stated she couldn't affirm the gay/lesbian "lifestyle" and affirmation of diverse groups of people is explicitely stated as part of the professional standard. That too has been posted and linked to already.

I'm not advocating that any standard get changed. I'm simply stating that she hasn't violated any standard. How has she violated any standard. Please provide the 'standard' and her 'violation' of it that you are basing your entire premise on. Please use concrete facts, and not heresay.

That has already been posted and links included with the posts - by multiple people. I'm not going to go through and search it out again, only to have it be ignored again. It's in this thread already.

 

[Newby]

Calm down. If Keeton were mature she would choose her battles more carefully.

I'm sure Keeton is not the only Christian in the counseling program, she's just the only one goofy enough to make a Federal case out of it.

I'm perfectly calm, Sky, but I appreciate your concern.

You were screaming with all caps.

Because I've said that same thing ad nauseum, but it never seems to get thru, so I thought I'd try 'screaming'. Not that I thought that would make any difference, but at least I felt better afterwards...

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm perfectly calm, Sky, but I appreciate your concern.

You were screaming with all caps.

Because I've said that same thing ad nauseum, but it never seems to get thru, so I thought I'd try 'screaming'. Not that I thought that would make any difference, but at least I felt better afterwards...

I'm glad the screaming helped you.

 

[Coyote]

So you have evidence she's unqualified? Because the claim being made is that it's her faith that makes her unqualified.

And that is discrimination.

They don't have any evidence that she's unqualified, and that's been my entire point. Heresay is not evidence. Potential future actions that may or may not happen is not evidence to deny someone of a degree. They want to persecute without any evidence whatsoever.

Heresay is what we seem to have on her side - her statements she is being discrimminated on because of her religious beliefs.

 

[Coyote]

So you have evidence she's unqualified? Because the claim being made is that it's her faith that makes her unqualified.

And that is discrimination.

They don't have any evidence that she's unqualified, and that's been my entire point. Heresay is not evidence. Potential future actions that may or may not happen is not evidence to deny someone of a degree. They want to persecute without any evidence whatsoever.

The school apparently feels they can not fully endores her qualifications for a degree based on things she has said in class, to fellow students, and to them. Earning a graduate degree is not simply passing coursework and profession requires a great deal of personal judgement and the ability to not let personal beliefs interfere in accepted standards of care.

I think that the school requiring her to do a "remediation" program is not unjust nor is it persecution based on things she has said over a period of time. It's very easy to say - yes, I can keep my personal beliefs seperate from my professional ones - but can she demonstrate it?

Is it fair to graduate her and license her and then hope that she will demonstrate it based on her claims alone despite at least some evidence to the contrary? Or, is it better to require her to do some extra work to try and understand a portion of the community she might be dealing with in counseling young people? Is that such a hardship that she can not possibly do it? Is a higher degree nothing more than entitlement?

Regardless of choices she makes later, as a professional, about who to work with or not - she must show she can work with these people showing the same impartiality and empathy as any other group. When you talk about fairness and persecution - what about the potential client, possibly a vulnerable homosexual teen? Surely that person deserves the most qualified counseler that the system can produce? Surely anyone deserves that, just as much as she deserves a degree? I think the standards set by the profession are set for a good reason - the good of the client first and foremost. Ultimately that is what this is about - not the student seeking a degree. That is secondary to the person being served.

 

[Coyote]

I think testimony in the court case will be interesting. Especially, if the student who had the conversation with Keeton about conversion therapy comes forth and tells his or her story.

"

I agree.

Also, in the document you linked to - where Keeton stated she was being asked to change her beliefs in a meeting - there was an email from that faculty member saying that she was misunderstanding what had been said.

I am sure a lot more will come out if this lawsuit stands.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I think testimony in the court case will be interesting. Especially, if the student who had the conversation with Keeton about conversion therapy comes forth and tells his or her story.

"

I agree.

Also, in the document you linked to - where Keeton stated she was being asked to change her beliefs in a meeting - there was an email from that faculty member saying that she was misunderstanding what had been said.

I am sure a lot more will come out if this lawsuit stands.

Keeton has been asked by the counseling department to open her mind to gay and lesbian people and learn to accept them. Keeton wants the entire profession of psychology and counseling to drop their ethical standards for her and adopt her narrow verson of Christianity, even though it would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.

 

[Father Time]

b) Gay's and Lesbians are not productive. They cannot have children. If you think they can, you need help.

Gay does not mean infertile nor does it mean you can't use sperm donors, surrogate mothers or just plain old sex with someone of the opposite sex.

 

[Sky Dancer]

96 percent of all U.S. counties have at least one same-sex couple with children under 18 in the household, Census 2000 reveals. More than a third of all U.S. counties (1,082) have a higher proportion of same-sex couples with children than the national average of two per thousand.
Gay and Lesbian Families in the Census: Couples With Children

 

[Sky Dancer]

Can you imagine Keeton counseling a victim of a homophobic hate crime? "The reason this happened to you is that your lifestyle is wrong, I cannot affirm you due to my Christian beliefs."

Imagine Keeton as a school counselor in this situation:

"The American Civil Liberties Union announced today that it has reached a settlement agreement with the Vallejo City Unified School District on behalf of a high school student who faced anti-gay harassment and discrimination from teachers and school staff and was required to participate in a school-sponsored “counseling” group designed to discourage students from being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. The settlement is designed to combat harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity at all the district’s schools, and includes district-wide anti-harassment training for students and staff.

“All I ever wanted was to be able to go to school and just be myself. But I couldn’t do that when the people I was supposed to be learning from were judging me and telling me something was wrong with me. How was I supposed to learn when I was constantly scared?” said Hamilton, a high school student who came out as a lesbian when she was 13.

Hamilton became severely depressed and her grades plummeted. Worried for her daughter, Hamilton’s mother, Cheri Hamilton, repeatedly wrote letters, made phone calls, and met in person with school and district officials for several months. After three months of outreach to the school and the district, Cheri Hamilton contacted the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California for help. The ACLU intervened to resolve the matter with the school district.
Hamilton reports that while some of the harassment she suffered came from other students, most of the time it came from school teachers and staff. Specific incidents included:

A teacher approached Hamilton while she was hugging her girlfriend and said, “This is ungodly, and you’re going to hell. This is a sin.”

Another teacher said, “What’s wrong with you? What are you, a man or a woman?”

Other school staff made repeated harassing comments to Hamilton in front of her classmates, including saying, “it’s not right to be this way.”

Hamilton was also on several occasions denied access to the girls’ locker room.

“California school districts are required by state law to protect students from harassment and discrimination, including on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity,” said Elizabeth Gill, an ACLU-NC staff attorney who worked with the district on the settlement. “If a school district ignores anti-gay bias in schools, it is plainly violating both state and federal law. These laws are designed, in part, to ensure that all students are able to learn and thrive free from bias. When it’s left unchecked, harassment can take a serious toll on students.”http://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights_hiv-aids/high-school-student-takes-anti-gay-harassment—and-wins

 

[Againsheila]

Can you imagine Keeton counseling a victim of a homophobic hate crime? "The reason this happened to you is that your lifestyle is wrong, I cannot affirm you due to my Christian beliefs."

Imagine Keeton as a school counselor in this situation:

"The American Civil Liberties Union announced today that it has reached a settlement agreement with the Vallejo City Unified School District on behalf of a high school student who faced anti-gay harassment and discrimination from teachers and school staff and was required to participate in a school-sponsored “counseling” group designed to discourage students from being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. The settlement is designed to combat harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity at all the district’s schools, and includes district-wide anti-harassment training for students and staff.

“All I ever wanted was to be able to go to school and just be myself. But I couldn’t do that when the people I was supposed to be learning from were judging me and telling me something was wrong with me. How was I supposed to learn when I was constantly scared?” said Hamilton, a high school student who came out as a lesbian when she was 13.

Hamilton became severely depressed and her grades plummeted. Worried for her daughter, Hamilton’s mother, Cheri Hamilton, repeatedly wrote letters, made phone calls, and met in person with school and district officials for several months. After three months of outreach to the school and the district, Cheri Hamilton contacted the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California for help. The ACLU intervened to resolve the matter with the school district.
Hamilton reports that while some of the harassment she suffered came from other students, most of the time it came from school teachers and staff. Specific incidents included:

A teacher approached Hamilton while she was hugging her girlfriend and said, “This is ungodly, and you’re going to hell. This is a sin.”

Another teacher said, “What’s wrong with you? What are you, a man or a woman?”

Other school staff made repeated harassing comments to Hamilton in front of her classmates, including saying, “it’s not right to be this way.”

Hamilton was also on several occasions denied access to the girls’ locker room.

“California school districts are required by state law to protect students from harassment and discrimination, including on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity,” said Elizabeth Gill, an ACLU-NC staff attorney who worked with the district on the settlement. “If a school district ignores anti-gay bias in schools, it is plainly violating both state and federal law. These laws are designed, in part, to ensure that all students are able to learn and thrive free from bias. When it’s left unchecked, harassment can take a serious toll on students.”High School Student Takes On Anti-Gay Harassment?And Wins | American Civil Liberties Union

Baloney. You are just making things up to make yourself feel better. I have friends that are gay. I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but if one of them got beat up, I sure as heck wouldn't be standing there saying "It's because you're gay." I'd be out beating the crap out of the person that beat him up. No "Christian" would be blaming the victim and I highly doubt this woman would. You really don't understand "Christians", do you?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Can you imagine Keeton counseling a victim of a homophobic hate crime? "The reason this happened to you is that your lifestyle is wrong, I cannot affirm you due to my Christian beliefs."

Imagine Keeton as a school counselor in this situation:

"The American Civil Liberties Union announced today that it has reached a settlement agreement with the Vallejo City Unified School District on behalf of a high school student who faced anti-gay harassment and discrimination from teachers and school staff and was required to participate in a school-sponsored “counseling” group designed to discourage students from being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. The settlement is designed to combat harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity at all the district’s schools, and includes district-wide anti-harassment training for students and staff.

“All I ever wanted was to be able to go to school and just be myself. But I couldn’t do that when the people I was supposed to be learning from were judging me and telling me something was wrong with me. How was I supposed to learn when I was constantly scared?” said Hamilton, a high school student who came out as a lesbian when she was 13.

Hamilton became severely depressed and her grades plummeted. Worried for her daughter, Hamilton’s mother, Cheri Hamilton, repeatedly wrote letters, made phone calls, and met in person with school and district officials for several months. After three months of outreach to the school and the district, Cheri Hamilton contacted the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California for help. The ACLU intervened to resolve the matter with the school district.
Hamilton reports that while some of the harassment she suffered came from other students, most of the time it came from school teachers and staff. Specific incidents included:

A teacher approached Hamilton while she was hugging her girlfriend and said, “This is ungodly, and you’re going to hell. This is a sin.”

Another teacher said, “What’s wrong with you? What are you, a man or a woman?”

Other school staff made repeated harassing comments to Hamilton in front of her classmates, including saying, “it’s not right to be this way.”

Hamilton was also on several occasions denied access to the girls’ locker room.

“California school districts are required by state law to protect students from harassment and discrimination, including on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity,” said Elizabeth Gill, an ACLU-NC staff attorney who worked with the district on the settlement. “If a school district ignores anti-gay bias in schools, it is plainly violating both state and federal law. These laws are designed, in part, to ensure that all students are able to learn and thrive free from bias. When it’s left unchecked, harassment can take a serious toll on students.”High School Student Takes On Anti-Gay Harassment?And Wins | American Civil Liberties Union

I have friends that are gay. I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but if one of them got beat up, I sure as heck wouldn't be standing there saying "It's because you're gay." I'd be out beating the crap out of the person that beat him up. No "Christian" would be blaming the victim and I highly doubt this woman would. You really don't understand "Christians", do you?

No. I don't understand Christians.

Homosexuality is not a 'lifestyle'. Homosexuality is just like heterosexuality. Something as natural to your being as breathing. It's the way some humans love. I don't understand Christians. They say they can condemn gays for who they are and still say claim to be 'friends'.

Strange kind of friendship that. My friends love and accept me for who I am and I feel the same toward them.

 

[AllieBaba]

I think testimony in the court case will be interesting. Especially, if the student who had the conversation with Keeton about conversion therapy comes forth and tells his or her story.

"

I agree.

Also, in the document you linked to - where Keeton stated she was being asked to change her beliefs in a meeting - there was an email from that faculty member saying that she was misunderstanding what had been said.

I am sure a lot more will come out if this lawsuit stands.

Keeton has been asked by the counseling department to open her mind to gay and lesbian people and learn to accept them. Keeton wants the entire profession of psychology and counseling to drop their ethical standards for her and adopt her narrow verson of Christianity, even though it would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.

Patently false.

She wasn't asked to "open her mind". She was assigned extra training based on her religion, and told to publicly state her support of a viewpoint she doesn't hold, and which NOBODY ELSE IS REQUIRED TO PUBLICLY SUPPORT.

She has never said she wants any of the ethical considerations changed, nor has she done anything that is harmful to gay or lesbian clients, or stated her intent to do anything harmful.

Try again.

 

[AllieBaba]

Can you imagine Keeton counseling a victim of a homophobic hate crime? "The reason this happened to you is that your lifestyle is wrong, I cannot affirm you due to my Christian beliefs."

Imagine Keeton as a school counselor in this situation:

"The American Civil Liberties Union announced today that it has reached a settlement agreement with the Vallejo City Unified School District on behalf of a high school student who faced anti-gay harassment and discrimination from teachers and school staff and was required to participate in a school-sponsored “counseling” group designed to discourage students from being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. The settlement is designed to combat harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity at all the district’s schools, and includes district-wide anti-harassment training for students and staff.

“All I ever wanted was to be able to go to school and just be myself. But I couldn’t do that when the people I was supposed to be learning from were judging me and telling me something was wrong with me. How was I supposed to learn when I was constantly scared?” said Hamilton, a high school student who came out as a lesbian when she was 13.

Hamilton became severely depressed and her grades plummeted. Worried for her daughter, Hamilton’s mother, Cheri Hamilton, repeatedly wrote letters, made phone calls, and met in person with school and district officials for several months. After three months of outreach to the school and the district, Cheri Hamilton contacted the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California for help. The ACLU intervened to resolve the matter with the school district.
Hamilton reports that while some of the harassment she suffered came from other students, most of the time it came from school teachers and staff. Specific incidents included:

A teacher approached Hamilton while she was hugging her girlfriend and said, “This is ungodly, and you’re going to hell. This is a sin.”

Another teacher said, “What’s wrong with you? What are you, a man or a woman?”

Other school staff made repeated harassing comments to Hamilton in front of her classmates, including saying, “it’s not right to be this way.”

Hamilton was also on several occasions denied access to the girls’ locker room.

“California school districts are required by state law to protect students from harassment and discrimination, including on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity,” said Elizabeth Gill, an ACLU-NC staff attorney who worked with the district on the settlement. “If a school district ignores anti-gay bias in schools, it is plainly violating both state and federal law. These laws are designed, in part, to ensure that all students are able to learn and thrive free from bias. When it’s left unchecked, harassment can take a serious toll on students.”High School Student Takes On Anti-Gay Harassment?And Wins | American Civil Liberties Union

I have friends that are gay. I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but if one of them got beat up, I sure as heck wouldn't be standing there saying "It's because you're gay." I'd be out beating the crap out of the person that beat him up. No "Christian" would be blaming the victim and I highly doubt this woman would. You really don't understand "Christians", do you?

No. I don't understand Christians.

Homosexuality is not a 'lifestyle'. Homosexuality is just like heterosexuality. Something as natural to your being as breathing. It's the way some humans love. I don't understand Christians. They say they can condemn gays for who they are and still say claim to be 'friends'.

Strange kind of friendship that. My friends love and accept me for who I am and I feel the same toward them.

Keeton never said she condemned gays. As for the rest, I see a lot more condemnation from non-Christian liberals towards Christians than I see towards gays. When you start saying people can't meet the requirements of this job or that based upon their religion ALONE you're being discriminatory and bigoted.

 

[Sky Dancer]

How do we manage to be friends Allie? Ever wonder about that?

 

[Againsheila]

Can you imagine Keeton counseling a victim of a homophobic hate crime? "The reason this happened to you is that your lifestyle is wrong, I cannot affirm you due to my Christian beliefs."

Imagine Keeton as a school counselor in this situation:

"The American Civil Liberties Union announced today that it has reached a settlement agreement with the Vallejo City Unified School District on behalf of a high school student who faced anti-gay harassment and discrimination from teachers and school staff and was required to participate in a school-sponsored “counseling” group designed to discourage students from being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. The settlement is designed to combat harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity at all the district’s schools, and includes district-wide anti-harassment training for students and staff.

“All I ever wanted was to be able to go to school and just be myself. But I couldn’t do that when the people I was supposed to be learning from were judging me and telling me something was wrong with me. How was I supposed to learn when I was constantly scared?” said Hamilton, a high school student who came out as a lesbian when she was 13.

Hamilton became severely depressed and her grades plummeted. Worried for her daughter, Hamilton’s mother, Cheri Hamilton, repeatedly wrote letters, made phone calls, and met in person with school and district officials for several months. After three months of outreach to the school and the district, Cheri Hamilton contacted the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California for help. The ACLU intervened to resolve the matter with the school district.
Hamilton reports that while some of the harassment she suffered came from other students, most of the time it came from school teachers and staff. Specific incidents included:

A teacher approached Hamilton while she was hugging her girlfriend and said, “This is ungodly, and you’re going to hell. This is a sin.”

Another teacher said, “What’s wrong with you? What are you, a man or a woman?”

Other school staff made repeated harassing comments to Hamilton in front of her classmates, including saying, “it’s not right to be this way.”

Hamilton was also on several occasions denied access to the girls’ locker room.

“California school districts are required by state law to protect students from harassment and discrimination, including on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity,” said Elizabeth Gill, an ACLU-NC staff attorney who worked with the district on the settlement. “If a school district ignores anti-gay bias in schools, it is plainly violating both state and federal law. These laws are designed, in part, to ensure that all students are able to learn and thrive free from bias. When it’s left unchecked, harassment can take a serious toll on students.”High School Student Takes On Anti-Gay Harassment?And Wins | American Civil Liberties Union

I have friends that are gay. I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but if one of them got beat up, I sure as heck wouldn't be standing there saying "It's because you're gay." I'd be out beating the crap out of the person that beat him up. No "Christian" would be blaming the victim and I highly doubt this woman would. You really don't understand "Christians", do you?

No. I don't understand Christians.

Homosexuality is not a 'lifestyle'. Homosexuality is just like heterosexuality. Something as natural to your being as breathing. It's the way some humans love. I don't understand Christians. They say they can condemn gays for who they are and still say claim to be 'friends'.

Strange kind of friendship that. My friends love and accept me for who I am and I feel the same toward them.

Right, you have never disagreed with your friends......what a boring life.

Friends love you not because of your perfections, but in-spite of your imperfections.