Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[Newby]

I think testimony in the court case will be interesting. Especially, if the student who had the conversation with Keeton about conversion therapy comes forth and tells his or her story.

"

I agree.

Also, in the document you linked to - where Keeton stated she was being asked to change her beliefs in a meeting - there was an email from that faculty member saying that she was misunderstanding what had been said.

I am sure a lot more will come out if this lawsuit stands.

Keeton has been asked by the counseling department to open her mind to gay and lesbian people and learn to accept them. Keeton wants the entire profession of psychology and counseling to drop their ethical standards for her and adopt her narrow verson of Christianity, even though it would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.

Sky, why should she 'learn to accept them'? Guess what? Everyone on this planet does not love everyone else. You have not 'learned to accept' a certain portion of christians, so why would you expect them to be different from yourself? She has her own beliefs and that is what she is comfortable living with, why should she be forced to change them, AS LONG AS SHE ISN'T HURTING ANYONE? I know that what you're predicting is that she could potentially harm someone, but she hasn't as of yet, and should not be held accountable for something that hasn't happened. That's my biggest argument in this entire debate, the woman has not done anything and is being bashed for her beliefs. Why isn't it okay for someone to not be comfortable with homosexuality? Everyone is not going to accept or be comfortable with everyone else's beliefs or lifestyle, that's a fact of life. And forcing anyone to feel or believe differently is the wrong way to go, regardless of which side of the matter you're on.

You keep assigning her thoughts and comments that I haven't seen her make, such as what I bolded above. Did she really say that? If so, could you provide me a link? If she hasn't, why do you feel it is okay to put words into her mouth and represent her thoughts and feelings as if you know her and what her intentions are? That shouldn't be okay, nor should it be done lightly.

 

[Newby]

Can you imagine Keeton counseling a victim of a homophobic hate crime? "The reason this happened to you is that your lifestyle is wrong, I cannot affirm you due to my Christian beliefs."

Imagine Keeton as a school counselor in this situation:

"The American Civil Liberties Union announced today that it has reached a settlement agreement with the Vallejo City Unified School District on behalf of a high school student who faced anti-gay harassment and discrimination from teachers and school staff and was required to participate in a school-sponsored “counseling” group designed to discourage students from being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. The settlement is designed to combat harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity at all the district’s schools, and includes district-wide anti-harassment training for students and staff.

“All I ever wanted was to be able to go to school and just be myself. But I couldn’t do that when the people I was supposed to be learning from were judging me and telling me something was wrong with me. How was I supposed to learn when I was constantly scared?” said Hamilton, a high school student who came out as a lesbian when she was 13.

Hamilton became severely depressed and her grades plummeted. Worried for her daughter, Hamilton’s mother, Cheri Hamilton, repeatedly wrote letters, made phone calls, and met in person with school and district officials for several months. After three months of outreach to the school and the district, Cheri Hamilton contacted the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California for help. The ACLU intervened to resolve the matter with the school district.
Hamilton reports that while some of the harassment she suffered came from other students, most of the time it came from school teachers and staff. Specific incidents included:

A teacher approached Hamilton while she was hugging her girlfriend and said, “This is ungodly, and you’re going to hell. This is a sin.”

Another teacher said, “What’s wrong with you? What are you, a man or a woman?”

Other school staff made repeated harassing comments to Hamilton in front of her classmates, including saying, “it’s not right to be this way.”

Hamilton was also on several occasions denied access to the girls’ locker room.

“California school districts are required by state law to protect students from harassment and discrimination, including on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity,” said Elizabeth Gill, an ACLU-NC staff attorney who worked with the district on the settlement. “If a school district ignores anti-gay bias in schools, it is plainly violating both state and federal law. These laws are designed, in part, to ensure that all students are able to learn and thrive free from bias. When it’s left unchecked, harassment can take a serious toll on students.”High School Student Takes On Anti-Gay Harassment?And Wins | American Civil Liberties Union

Baloney. You are just making things up to make yourself feel better. I have friends that are gay. I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but if one of them got beat up, I sure as heck wouldn't be standing there saying "It's because you're gay." I'd be out beating the crap out of the person that beat him up. No "Christian" would be blaming the victim and I highly doubt this woman would. You really don't understand "Christians", do you?

She's assigned thoughts and feelings to this woman without any substantiated proof that she's said them or thought them the entire way through this thread. I feel that is completely dishonest.

 

[Newby]

Can you imagine Keeton counseling a victim of a homophobic hate crime? "The reason this happened to you is that your lifestyle is wrong, I cannot affirm you due to my Christian beliefs."

Imagine Keeton as a school counselor in this situation:

"The American Civil Liberties Union announced today that it has reached a settlement agreement with the Vallejo City Unified School District on behalf of a high school student who faced anti-gay harassment and discrimination from teachers and school staff and was required to participate in a school-sponsored “counseling” group designed to discourage students from being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. The settlement is designed to combat harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity at all the district’s schools, and includes district-wide anti-harassment training for students and staff.

“All I ever wanted was to be able to go to school and just be myself. But I couldn’t do that when the people I was supposed to be learning from were judging me and telling me something was wrong with me. How was I supposed to learn when I was constantly scared?” said Hamilton, a high school student who came out as a lesbian when she was 13.

Hamilton became severely depressed and her grades plummeted. Worried for her daughter, Hamilton’s mother, Cheri Hamilton, repeatedly wrote letters, made phone calls, and met in person with school and district officials for several months. After three months of outreach to the school and the district, Cheri Hamilton contacted the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California for help. The ACLU intervened to resolve the matter with the school district.
Hamilton reports that while some of the harassment she suffered came from other students, most of the time it came from school teachers and staff. Specific incidents included:

A teacher approached Hamilton while she was hugging her girlfriend and said, “This is ungodly, and you’re going to hell. This is a sin.”

Another teacher said, “What’s wrong with you? What are you, a man or a woman?”

Other school staff made repeated harassing comments to Hamilton in front of her classmates, including saying, “it’s not right to be this way.”

Hamilton was also on several occasions denied access to the girls’ locker room.

“California school districts are required by state law to protect students from harassment and discrimination, including on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity,” said Elizabeth Gill, an ACLU-NC staff attorney who worked with the district on the settlement. “If a school district ignores anti-gay bias in schools, it is plainly violating both state and federal law. These laws are designed, in part, to ensure that all students are able to learn and thrive free from bias. When it’s left unchecked, harassment can take a serious toll on students.”High School Student Takes On Anti-Gay Harassment?And Wins | American Civil Liberties Union

I have friends that are gay. I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but if one of them got beat up, I sure as heck wouldn't be standing there saying "It's because you're gay." I'd be out beating the crap out of the person that beat him up. No "Christian" would be blaming the victim and I highly doubt this woman would. You really don't understand "Christians", do you?

No. I don't understand Christians.

Homosexuality is not a 'lifestyle'. Homosexuality is just like heterosexuality. Something as natural to your being as breathing. It's the way some humans love. I don't understand Christians. They say they can condemn gays for who they are and still say claim to be 'friends'.

Strange kind of friendship that. My friends love and accept me for who I am and I feel the same toward them.

I agree with you on that front, Sky, I don't think it's a lifestyle either, and for the record I'm not in accord with this woman and how she believes. But, she still has the right to believe the way she wants too, and if she keeps it separate from her profession, no one has any right to deny her the degree that she earned. If there's proof that she's counseled someone inappropriately that's a different story, but I have yet to see any proof like that offered up here or by the media.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I have friends that are gay. I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but if one of them got beat up, I sure as heck wouldn't be standing there saying "It's because you're gay." I'd be out beating the crap out of the person that beat him up. No "Christian" would be blaming the victim and I highly doubt this woman would. You really don't understand "Christians", do you?

No. I don't understand Christians.

Homosexuality is not a 'lifestyle'. Homosexuality is just like heterosexuality. Something as natural to your being as breathing. It's the way some humans love. I don't understand Christians. They say they can condemn gays for who they are and still say claim to be 'friends'.

Strange kind of friendship that. My friends love and accept me for who I am and I feel the same toward them.

I agree with you on that front, Sky, I don't think it's a lifestyle either, and for the record I'm not in accord with this woman and how she believes. But, she still has the right to believe the way she wants too, and if she keeps it separate from her profession, no one has any right to deny her the degree that she earned. If there's proof that she's counseled someone inappropriately that's a different story, but I have yet to see any proof like that offered up here or by the media.

Keeton hasn't kept her Bible away from her profession, at least not in her training program so far.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Can you imagine Keeton counseling a victim of a homophobic hate crime? "The reason this happened to you is that your lifestyle is wrong, I cannot affirm you due to my Christian beliefs."

Imagine Keeton as a school counselor in this situation:

"The American Civil Liberties Union announced today that it has reached a settlement agreement with the Vallejo City Unified School District on behalf of a high school student who faced anti-gay harassment and discrimination from teachers and school staff and was required to participate in a school-sponsored “counseling” group designed to discourage students from being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender. The settlement is designed to combat harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity at all the district’s schools, and includes district-wide anti-harassment training for students and staff.

“All I ever wanted was to be able to go to school and just be myself. But I couldn’t do that when the people I was supposed to be learning from were judging me and telling me something was wrong with me. How was I supposed to learn when I was constantly scared?” said Hamilton, a high school student who came out as a lesbian when she was 13.

Hamilton became severely depressed and her grades plummeted. Worried for her daughter, Hamilton’s mother, Cheri Hamilton, repeatedly wrote letters, made phone calls, and met in person with school and district officials for several months. After three months of outreach to the school and the district, Cheri Hamilton contacted the American Civil Liberties Union of Northern California for help. The ACLU intervened to resolve the matter with the school district.
Hamilton reports that while some of the harassment she suffered came from other students, most of the time it came from school teachers and staff. Specific incidents included:

A teacher approached Hamilton while she was hugging her girlfriend and said, “This is ungodly, and you’re going to hell. This is a sin.”

Another teacher said, “What’s wrong with you? What are you, a man or a woman?”

Other school staff made repeated harassing comments to Hamilton in front of her classmates, including saying, “it’s not right to be this way.”

Hamilton was also on several occasions denied access to the girls’ locker room.

“California school districts are required by state law to protect students from harassment and discrimination, including on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity,” said Elizabeth Gill, an ACLU-NC staff attorney who worked with the district on the settlement. “If a school district ignores anti-gay bias in schools, it is plainly violating both state and federal law. These laws are designed, in part, to ensure that all students are able to learn and thrive free from bias. When it’s left unchecked, harassment can take a serious toll on students.”High School Student Takes On Anti-Gay Harassment?And Wins | American Civil Liberties Union

Baloney. You are just making things up to make yourself feel better. I have friends that are gay. I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but if one of them got beat up, I sure as heck wouldn't be standing there saying "It's because you're gay." I'd be out beating the crap out of the person that beat him up. No "Christian" would be blaming the victim and I highly doubt this woman would. You really don't understand "Christians", do you?

She's assigned thoughts and feelings to this woman without any substantiated proof that she's said them or thought them the entire way through this thread. I feel that is completely dishonest.

I'm hypothetically putting Keeton in two counseling situations. I don't think she'd do well in either.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I have friends that are gay. I don't agree with the gay lifestyle but if one of them got beat up, I sure as heck wouldn't be standing there saying "It's because you're gay." I'd be out beating the crap out of the person that beat him up. No "Christian" would be blaming the victim and I highly doubt this woman would. You really don't understand "Christians", do you?

No. I don't understand Christians.

Homosexuality is not a 'lifestyle'. Homosexuality is just like heterosexuality. Something as natural to your being as breathing. It's the way some humans love. I don't understand Christians. They say they can condemn gays for who they are and still say claim to be 'friends'.

Strange kind of friendship that. My friends love and accept me for who I am and I feel the same toward them.

Right, you have never disagreed with your friends......what a boring life.

Friends love you not because of your perfections, but in-spite of your imperfections.

I have many flaws and imperfections. Being gay isn't one of them.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I agree.

Also, in the document you linked to - where Keeton stated she was being asked to change her beliefs in a meeting - there was an email from that faculty member saying that she was misunderstanding what had been said.

I am sure a lot more will come out if this lawsuit stands.

Keeton has been asked by the counseling department to open her mind to gay and lesbian people and learn to accept them. Keeton wants the entire profession of psychology and counseling to drop their ethical standards for her and adopt her narrow verson of Christianity, even though it would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.

Sky, why should she 'learn to accept them'? Guess what? Everyone on this planet does not love everyone else. You have not 'learned to accept' a certain portion of christians, so why would you expect them to be different from yourself? She has her own beliefs and that is what she is comfortable living with, why should she be forced to change them, AS LONG AS SHE ISN'T HURTING ANYONE? I know that what you're predicting is that she could potentially harm someone, but she hasn't as of yet, and should not be held accountable for something that hasn't happened. That's my biggest argument in this entire debate, the woman has not done anything and is being bashed for her beliefs. Why isn't it okay for someone to not be comfortable with homosexuality? Everyone is not going to accept or be comfortable with everyone else's beliefs or lifestyle, that's a fact of life. And forcing anyone to feel or believe differently is the wrong way to go, regardless of which side of the matter you're on.

You keep assigning her thoughts and comments that I haven't seen her make, such as what I bolded above. Did she really say that? If so, could you provide me a link? If she hasn't, why do you feel it is okay to put words into her mouth and represent her thoughts and feelings as if you know her and what her intentions are? That shouldn't be okay, nor should it be done lightly.

Keeton has to learn to suspend her own values in order to be there for her clients. She has shown that she is unwilling to do so.

I've posted her own words many times.

 

[AllieBaba]

You have posted her words, none of which support the theory that she intends to harm clients.

You've voiced the problem yourself, Sky. The problem is, you approve of discrimination. She has to suspend her values? Are you serious? That's an illegal requirement in this country. Period.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The problem is Keeton wants to discriminate against gays and lesbians and use her religion to hide behind. Keeton is unwilling to keep her private beliefs private.

"One must hear the entire story before entering either a public or private opinion. ASU has been unable to tell its side of the story, since legal action is pending.

The basic issue is: Being publicly founded, funded and chartered, the institution is under constitutional law not to promote, teach or counsel in any sectarian manner. Certainly, outraged pastors should know and appreciate that, more than any other reader. Those strictures are critical to the separation of church and state.

Those who are outraged should take up a collection and sponsor the young lady in a sectarian university of her choice, where she would be able to teach, train, counsel and guide clients within the parameters of her belief system.

Most counseling services are publicly funded, and the young lady would be unable to use her counseling skills in a sectarian manner. She would have to seek employment from an organization that holds similar beliefs and uses a redemptive model in their counseling program.

I haven't heard ASU's side of the story either, but I can imagine that the student was counseled correctly in the context of the institution's charter and constitutional law. The issue of "changing her beliefs," if suggested, simply was in the context of the boundaries of public education. Certainly no attempt to "convert" was offered -- only a choice: Stay within the bounds of public policy and law, or make a career change.

Your private beliefs are just that -- your private beliefs. It just so happens that those beliefs are out of bounds for promotion within a public institution, and thus your lab or clinical counseling sessions must be limited to constitutional requirements.
http://chronicle.augusta.com/opinion/letters/2010-08-03/asu-case-straddles-belief-and-law

 

[AllieBaba]

There is no evidence of that. You are basing it solely upon her religion.

And that's illegal.

 

[Immanuel]

The counseling program abides by both the ACA and the APA guidelines. Ms Keeton's own words tell the true story.

She said she could not affirm a gay or lesbian's lifestyle. A client does not go to see a counselor to be condemned as wrong for who he or she happens to love.

Perhaps she would neither affirm, nor condemn. As a professional, according to evidence you have posted, the APA does not consider it a disorder, therefore she would not be required to 'treat' it at all. It's a moot point. Neither has she ever said she would push her views or opinions on anyone while counseling, that's something that's been made up throughout this entire thread and is based on dishonesty. At least be honest and admit that you are making assumptions about what she would or would not do, because that's exactly what you are doing.

Actually Keeton has stated that she would not affirm her clients lifestyle. She has stated that Christian morals are applicable to ALL.

She has stated homosexuality is identity confusion. It is Keeton who is confused. She doesn't know whether she wants to be a professonal counselor or a Christian minister.

In other words, your problem with her is that she says she will not tell a gay student that his or her homosexuality is perfectly acceptable. She doesn't say that she will condemn the student, but your problem seems to be that she says she will not tell the student that "it is okay to be gay".

So, what this all boils down to is that according to you, all counselors have to tell all gays that it is okay to be gay and that Christians and others who do not agree with you are not allowed to practice psychology.

What a sad world that is going to be!

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

There is no evidence of that. You are basing it solely upon her religion.

And that's illegal.

Keeton is unwilling to keep her religious beliefs to herself, and that is against professional counseling standards.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Perhaps she would neither affirm, nor condemn. As a professional, according to evidence you have posted, the APA does not consider it a disorder, therefore she would not be required to 'treat' it at all. It's a moot point. Neither has she ever said she would push her views or opinions on anyone while counseling, that's something that's been made up throughout this entire thread and is based on dishonesty. At least be honest and admit that you are making assumptions about what she would or would not do, because that's exactly what you are doing.

Actually Keeton has stated that she would not affirm her clients lifestyle. She has stated that Christian morals are applicable to ALL.

She has stated homosexuality is identity confusion. It is Keeton who is confused. She doesn't know whether she wants to be a professonal counselor or a Christian minister.

In other words, your problem with her is that she says she will not tell a gay student that his or her homosexuality is perfectly acceptable. She doesn't say that she will condemn the student, but your problem seems to be that she says she will not tell the student that "it is okay to be gay".

So, what this all boils down to is that according to you, all counselors have to tell all gays that it is okay to be gay and that Christians and others who do not agree with you are not allowed to practice psychology.

What a sad world that is going to be!

Immie

Yes. Counselors must accept the very being of their clients. That's how emotional healing happens. Homosexuality is not a 'lifestyle' anymore than heterosexuality is a lifestyle. It's just what you are in your very being. It's how you love.

 

[Immanuel]

But SkyDancer did post that - in Keeton's own words, she said: “[Y]ou are requiring me to alter my objective beliefs and also to commit now that if I ever may have a client who wants me to affirm their decision to have an abortion or engage in gay, lesbian, or transgender behavior, I will do that. I can’t alter my biblical beliefs, and I will not affirm the morality of those behaviors in a counseling situation.”

Sky then posted the guidelines pertaining to it.

Does Keeton deny saying that?

Apparently, Keeton is the only one making some of these claims - they do not seem substantiated by her peers at school, or any of the school faculty or staff. It seems she is not being totally honest and it has nothing to do with her being Christian or not, but with the evidence presented thus far.

Since when are counselors required to cite their support any choice a client makes? That is not something that is required of any counselor. They are requiring it of THIS student because she's a Christian and made the horrific mistake of openly espousing Christian values.

The school should lose all financial support from the state and the feds.

Umm...no. Are you a counseler? Part of the profession involves seperating your own personal feelings from those of your client. As a profession, it also does not cast value or moral judgements on the client.

Sky Dancer made it pretty clear (as she has throughout this debate):

The Preamble to the ASCA document additionally states that Professional school counselors . . . subscrib[e] to the following tenets of professional
responsibility:

· Each person has the right to be respected, be treated with dignity and have access to a comprehensive school counseling program that advocates for and
affirms all students from diverse populations regardless of ethnic/racial status, age, economic status, special needs, English as a second language or other
language group, immigration status, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity/expression, family type, religious/spiritual identity and appearance.

Keeton has stated she doesn't respect homosexuality. She condemns it as wrong and cannot affirm the lifestyle of gay and lesbian clients.

Ms. Keeton should have been well aware of the tenets of her chosen profession by this time yet she chose to continue. Personally, I have an issue the use of animal testing in such industries as cosmetics. Would it be appropriate for me to go into a program that involves animal subjects, and then complain that it is against my belief system when the requirements of my program requires me to handle those animals? I wouldn't think so.

In fact, I don't understand why, if her beliefs were so strong that she couldn't follow the neccessary tenets - she did not go into a religious counseling vocation which would have been more appropriate for her goals and beliefs?

Why does she, and her supporters think that the entire profession must be remodeled to accommodate her particular belief system?

I'm sorry, but you guys continue to dishonestly insist that she cannot behave as a professional.

The code of ethics basically says do no harm, it does not say that one must affirm homosexuality. I have not seen one thing from her where she states that she will condemn such students. She simply says she will not tell them that it is okay to be gay.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Since when are counselors required to cite their support any choice a client makes? That is not something that is required of any counselor. They are requiring it of THIS student because she's a Christian and made the horrific mistake of openly espousing Christian values.

The school should lose all financial support from the state and the feds.

Umm...no. Are you a counseler? Part of the profession involves seperating your own personal feelings from those of your client. As a profession, it also does not cast value or moral judgements on the client.

Sky Dancer made it pretty clear (as she has throughout this debate):

The Preamble to the ASCA document additionally states that Professional school counselors . . . subscrib[e] to the following tenets of professional
responsibility:

· Each person has the right to be respected, be treated with dignity and have access to a comprehensive school counseling program that advocates for and
affirms all students from diverse populations regardless of ethnic/racial status, age, economic status, special needs, English as a second language or other
language group, immigration status, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity/expression, family type, religious/spiritual identity and appearance.

Keeton has stated she doesn't respect homosexuality. She condemns it as wrong and cannot affirm the lifestyle of gay and lesbian clients.

Ms. Keeton should have been well aware of the tenets of her chosen profession by this time yet she chose to continue. Personally, I have an issue the use of animal testing in such industries as cosmetics. Would it be appropriate for me to go into a program that involves animal subjects, and then complain that it is against my belief system when the requirements of my program requires me to handle those animals? I wouldn't think so.

In fact, I don't understand why, if her beliefs were so strong that she couldn't follow the neccessary tenets - she did not go into a religious counseling vocation which would have been more appropriate for her goals and beliefs?

Why does she, and her supporters think that the entire profession must be remodeled to accommodate her particular belief system?

I'm sorry, but you guys continue to dishonestly insist that she cannot behave as a professional.

The code of ethics basically says do no harm, it does not say that one must affirm homosexuality. I have not seen one thing from her where she states that she will condemn such students. She simply says she will not tell them that it is okay to be gay.

Immie

Tell me how she is doing no harm if she tells gays people their very being is wrong, immoral and sinful?

 

[AllieBaba]

Actually Keeton has stated that she would not affirm her clients lifestyle. She has stated that Christian morals are applicable to ALL.

She has stated homosexuality is identity confusion. It is Keeton who is confused. She doesn't know whether she wants to be a professonal counselor or a Christian minister.

In other words, your problem with her is that she says she will not tell a gay student that his or her homosexuality is perfectly acceptable. She doesn't say that she will condemn the student, but your problem seems to be that she says she will not tell the student that "it is okay to be gay".

So, what this all boils down to is that according to you, all counselors have to tell all gays that it is okay to be gay and that Christians and others who do not agree with you are not allowed to practice psychology.

What a sad world that is going to be!

Immie

Yes. Counselors must accept the very being of their clients. That's how emotional healing happens. Homosexuality is not a 'lifestyle' anymore than heterosexuality is a lifestyle. It's just what you are in your very being. It's how you love.

No, they must NOT. You're perpetuating a series of lies, Sky. There is no requirement that counselors "accept the very being" of anyone. There is no evidence that this woman has said anything that implicates she will treat homosexuals in any manner different than the accepted manner. She was grilled on her personally held beliefs, she stated them, and now she's being discriminated against because of them.

 

[Sky Dancer]

In other words, your problem with her is that she says she will not tell a gay student that his or her homosexuality is perfectly acceptable. She doesn't say that she will condemn the student, but your problem seems to be that she says she will not tell the student that "it is okay to be gay".

So, what this all boils down to is that according to you, all counselors have to tell all gays that it is okay to be gay and that Christians and others who do not agree with you are not allowed to practice psychology.

What a sad world that is going to be!

Immie

Yes. Counselors must accept the very being of their clients. That's how emotional healing happens. Homosexuality is not a 'lifestyle' anymore than heterosexuality is a lifestyle. It's just what you are in your very being. It's how you love.

No, they must NOT. You're perpetuating a series of lies, Sky. There is no requirement that counselors "accept the very being" of anyone. There is no evidence that this woman has said anything that implicates she will treat homosexuals in any manner different than the accepted manner. She was grilled on her personally held beliefs, she stated them, and now she's being discriminated against because of them.

She is unwilling to allow gay people to just be who they are without wanting to change them because of her religious beliefs which she cannot shut up about.

Keeton wants the right to discriminate against gays and claim victim of discrimination when she's busted on it.

I'm a counselor btw. Counseling 101 attend to the client without judgment.

 

[AllieBaba]

Umm...no. Are you a counseler? Part of the profession involves seperating your own personal feelings from those of your client. As a profession, it also does not cast value or moral judgements on the client.

Sky Dancer made it pretty clear (as she has throughout this debate):



Ms. Keeton should have been well aware of the tenets of her chosen profession by this time yet she chose to continue. Personally, I have an issue the use of animal testing in such industries as cosmetics. Would it be appropriate for me to go into a program that involves animal subjects, and then complain that it is against my belief system when the requirements of my program requires me to handle those animals? I wouldn't think so.

In fact, I don't understand why, if her beliefs were so strong that she couldn't follow the neccessary tenets - she did not go into a religious counseling vocation which would have been more appropriate for her goals and beliefs?

Why does she, and her supporters think that the entire profession must be remodeled to accommodate her particular belief system?

I'm sorry, but you guys continue to dishonestly insist that she cannot behave as a professional.

The code of ethics basically says do no harm, it does not say that one must affirm homosexuality. I have not seen one thing from her where she states that she will condemn such students. She simply says she will not tell them that it is okay to be gay.

Immie

Tell me how she is doing no harm if she tells gays people their very being is wrong, immoral and sinful?

SHE HAS NEVER SAID THAT TO HER CLIENTS AND HAS NEVER GIVEN ANY INDICATION SHE INTENDS TO. IT'S A FALSE PREMISE.

And, by the way, while she said she believes homosexuality is a sin, she ALSO STATED THAT ALL PEOPLE SIN. Homosexuality is a sin partly because it's SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE. So do you think Christians discriminate against all sexually active people who aren't married?

You're perpetuating lies, Sky. That's all there is to it. And you're supporting fascism.

 

[Immanuel]

That's a strawman - she is not making that argument. The argument is that Ms. Keeton is unable to seperate her biblical values from her professional ethics and may allow her religious beliefs to over-rule her professional standards.
In her schoolwork and practicum - she has to show she is able to abide by the professional standards she will need to if she graduates. She doesn't have to be actually counseling to be accountable to those standards.

Excuse my language, Coyote, but that is a fucking lie. I'm tired of hearing it. She has not shown that, she has not yet worked in a professional capacity, and she has publically stated (which I've posted in this thread somewhere) that she could indeed separate her beliefs from her profession.

She has publically stated that she would not and could not "affirm" a homosexual's lifestyle. Affirmation is part of the professional standard, and has been quoted numerous times.

If she can not do that, then how can she "indeed separate her beliefs from her profession"? Perhaps it's these contradictions that concern the faculty in her program. Counseling young people involves a high degree of empathy - it is not moralistic and judgemental. If you are unable seperate out your personal feelings in order to empathize with a client, are you truely able to do the job? The remediation program she is supposed to undergo is supposed to help her with that.

In Sky's own post she stated that the APA has allowances for referral in a situation where your beliefs will not allow you to work with someone. It wouldn't surprise me if the school purposely went out of their way to place her into this situation so they could do exactly what they're doing.

You totally skip over the fact that she is not yet a professional, and just like a medical student is not yet a professional he must go through rotations showing he has the ability to work in a variety of specialties even though he will eventually only be assuming one. She needs to show she can do the whole caboodle before opting out of part of it.

It wouldn't surprise me if the group that is supporting (and likely paying) for her lawsuit is the one putting her up to this. I highly doubt she is the only Christian in that program, but she is the only one who apparently can't do what is academically required in order to graduate from that program.

So she has a client come to her that says he is sexually stimulated by forcing women to have sex with him, raping them. By your standards of affirmation she would have to tell the rapist, "it is okay to rape."

She does not have to affirm homosexuality. She simply cannot do harm to her patient and as far as I can tell, she has never indicated that she would willingly do so.

Immie

 

[AllieBaba]

There is no evidence of that. You are basing it solely upon her religion.

And that's illegal.

Keeton is unwilling to keep her religious beliefs to herself, and that is against professional counseling standards.

No, it isn't. That's one of the lies you keep spouting. You take a single phrase, attach the WRONG MEANING to it, and then present it like it's evidence of something. You're wrong.

Besides which, following your religion and discussing your religion OPENLY is a fucking protected right in this country. Classrooms are the arena of ideas, and one of the places where the right to voice unpopular opinions is MOST PARTICULARLY protected.