Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[Coyote]

I agree.

Also, in the document you linked to - where Keeton stated she was being asked to change her beliefs in a meeting - there was an email from that faculty member saying that she was misunderstanding what had been said.

I am sure a lot more will come out if this lawsuit stands.

Keeton has been asked by the counseling department to open her mind to gay and lesbian people and learn to accept them. Keeton wants the entire profession of psychology and counseling to drop their ethical standards for her and adopt her narrow verson of Christianity, even though it would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.

Sky, why should she 'learn to accept them'? Guess what? Everyone on this planet does not love everyone else. You have not 'learned to accept' a certain portion of christians, so why would you expect them to be different from yourself? She has her own beliefs and that is what she is comfortable living with, why should she be forced to change them, AS LONG AS SHE ISN'T HURTING ANYONE? I know that what you're predicting is that she could potentially harm someone, but she hasn't as of yet, and should not be held accountable for something that hasn't happened. That's my biggest argument in this entire debate, the woman has not done anything and is being bashed for her beliefs. Why isn't it okay for someone to not be comfortable with homosexuality? Everyone is not going to accept or be comfortable with everyone else's beliefs or lifestyle, that's a fact of life. And forcing anyone to feel or believe differently is the wrong way to go, regardless of which side of the matter you're on.

You keep assigning her thoughts and comments that I haven't seen her make, such as what I bolded above. Did she really say that? If so, could you provide me a link? If she hasn't, why do you feel it is okay to put words into her mouth and represent her thoughts and feelings as if you know her and what her intentions are? That shouldn't be okay, nor should it be done lightly.

In this particular case, her profession requires some degree of acceptance and affirmation of a variety of people including gays. It's explicitely stated on multiple levels. The concern, and I think it's a valid concern is is she able or willing to meet that demand?

You make good points, but I don't think you're hearing the real issue. It's not pre-judging her, on what she might do. It's making certain she meets the minimal standards required by the degree in order to graduate, and those standards include an ability to empathize and "affirm" the behaviors and choices of groups of people you may not agree with. It requires a person to be able to suspend their personal feelings or judgements. She says she can - but has she demonstrated it? The school doesn't think so. Potential harm, down the road, is possible if she is counseling a gay or lesbian client but like you say, that is projecting into the future, and you can't judge it. But you CAN judge what is going on now, based on the student's words and actions and in the view of the school - it does not (yet) meet the degree requirements. I know you complain about hearsay - but all we have on HER side, is hearsay as well.

The difficulty in understanding this is homosexuality is culturally volatile in our society. I've never understood why, but it is. There are many professions where a person's faith may come in conflict with their desired profession but there is none so emotional or that seem generate so much vitriol, as those that include attitudes towards homosexuality.

In most cases where faith conflicts with career choice - the person opts for another career path - they do not expect exemption from some of the standards. It does seem though, that when it comes to homosexuality, the expectation is different and the cry of religious persecution is raised. Ironically - in this thread, or maybe another thread on the same topic here, one poster raised the fact that "homophobia" isn't religious - in his view the majority of society feels that way. If so, how can this be a case of religious persecution?

 

[Sky Dancer]

It seems more likely that the professors simply do not like her point of view and are forcing her out of the program.

If you ask me, she would have been better off, simply seeking a transfer to a more open minded university. One where the professors and administration believed in the freedoms of speech and religion, because for some reason these "professional" teachers do not like her and she has no way in hell of ever graduating from that school now even if she completes their brainwashing endeavors.

Immie

Your making this part up. You don't know that the professors simply don't like her point of view.

I agree Keeton should transfer to a Bible college where her narrow minded view of homosexuality and hatred of gay people is normative.

Keeton is already brainwashed. She is a religous fanatic.

I'm not making anything up. It is evident that if they liked her as a person, they would not be insisting on brainwashing her.

It seems to me that Ms. Keeton is the one that is open minded of the two parties. The university surely is not.

Immie

How open minded of her to think she can shove Christian morals down everyones throat everywhere she goes.

 

[Immanuel]

Funny how Christians have to comply with the same professional standards in counseling as everyone else and Keeton isn't willing to.

Again, totally unsubstantiated.

Immie

We''ll see what happens. Alliance Defense Fund lost the last case like this.

Losing a case doesn't mean you are wrong.

Ask Marcia Clark and Thom Darden about that one.

Immie

PS If those two names are not familiar to you off the top of your head, think OJ Simpson prosecutors.

 

[Madeline]

Seems to me the ones being persecuted are the GLBT people this lady will harm, along with those who love them. Their risk of harm is quantifiable, preventable and easy to see. Hers?

Not so much. She wants to enter a licensed profession -- dealing with school children, no less -- but to do so under a set of rules that deviate from, and fall below, the profession's standard of care. If sh weren't claiming this "right" based on her religion -- and if her religion were anything other than fundamental christianity -- she would receive no free legal help, no press and no support.

Hatred for GLBT people is one of the last "sanctioned" bigotries in this society. But it is not acceptable in a licensed counselor of school children....nor is that going to change no matter how many ignoranumses may share her hatred.

 

[Immanuel]

Your making this part up. You don't know that the professors simply don't like her point of view.

I agree Keeton should transfer to a Bible college where her narrow minded view of homosexuality and hatred of gay people is normative.

Keeton is already brainwashed. She is a religous fanatic.

I'm not making anything up. It is evident that if they liked her as a person, they would not be insisting on brainwashing her.

It seems to me that Ms. Keeton is the one that is open minded of the two parties. The university surely is not.

Immie

How open minded of her to think she can shove Christian morals down everyones throat everywhere she goes.

Again, you have no proof that she would do this.

That is the entire problem you have with your case, you have convicted her before she has committed the crime.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Again, totally unsubstantiated.

Immie

We''ll see what happens. Alliance Defense Fund lost the last case like this.

Losing a case doesn't mean you are wrong.

Ask Marcia Clark and Thom Darden about that one.

Immie

PS If those two names are not familiar to you off the top of your head, think OJ Simpson prosecutors.

Being a fanatic means always having to be right. I'm still waiting for the court case to resolve.

We'll see what happens.

 

[Immanuel]

Seems to me the ones being persecuted are the GLBT people this lady will harm, along with those who love them. Their risk of harm is quantifiable, preventable and easy to see. Hers?

Not so much. She wants to enter a licensed profession -- dealing with school children, no less -- but to do so under a set of rules that deviate from, and fall below, the profession's standard of care. If sh weren't claiming this "right" based on her religion -- and if her religion were anything other than fundamental christianity -- she would receive no free legal help, no press and no support.

Hatred for GLBT people is one of the last "sanctioned" bigotries in this society. But it is not acceptable in a licensed counselor of school children....nor is that going to change no matter how many ignoranumses may share her hatred.

I don't recall seeing anywhere that she hated homosexuals.

It seems like this entire argument has been made against her before she has done anything wrong.

Note: speaking one's mind in class is not wrong in my book.

Under no circumstances should she be allowed to counsel anyone, gay or straight, until she has proven her qualifications and that means working in a supervised situation with both gay and straight. But this can not happen if the school boots her out of the program and she does not graduate. Later, if she can't handle dealing with gays or someone else, then she should not be licensed.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm not making anything up. It is evident that if they liked her as a person, they would not be insisting on brainwashing her.

It seems to me that Ms. Keeton is the one that is open minded of the two parties. The university surely is not.

Immie

How open minded of her to think she can shove Christian morals down everyones throat everywhere she goes.

Again, you have no proof that she would do this.

That is the entire problem you have with your case, you have convicted her before she has committed the crime.

Immie

Immie, there is alot more to this story than meets the eye. I don't give Ms Keeton the benefit of the doubt because I have run into fanatics like her before.

She should not be licensed by the ACA or APA .

I don't care if she gets her degree I just want her to stay the hell away from vulnerable gay clients.

She needs to work for a Christian agency.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Seems to me the ones being persecuted are the GLBT people this lady will harm, along with those who love them. Their risk of harm is quantifiable, preventable and easy to see. Hers?

Not so much. She wants to enter a licensed profession -- dealing with school children, no less -- but to do so under a set of rules that deviate from, and fall below, the profession's standard of care. If sh weren't claiming this "right" based on her religion -- and if her religion were anything other than fundamental christianity -- she would receive no free legal help, no press and no support.

Hatred for GLBT people is one of the last "sanctioned" bigotries in this society. But it is not acceptable in a licensed counselor of school children....nor is that going to change no matter how many ignoranumses may share her hatred.

I don't recall seeing anywhere that she hated homosexuals.

It seems like this entire argument has been made against her before she has done anything wrong.

Note: speaking one's mind in class is not wrong in my book.

Under no circumstances should she be allowed to counsel anyone, gay or straight, until she has proven her qualifications and that means working in a supervised situation with both gay and straight. But this can not happen if the school boots her out of the program and she does not graduate. Later, if she can't handle dealing with gays or someone else, then she should not be licensed.

Immie

Keeton has gone above and beyond merely speaking her mind in class. She has stated that she is inflexible in her views about homosexuality and that she would apply Christian morality to ALL people. She has been unwilling to take the social cues that she has made other students in class uncomfortable with her views.

She doens't demonstrate a great sensitivity in her relationship to other students and faculty.

 

[Coyote]

Perhaps she would neither affirm, nor condemn. As a professional, according to evidence you have posted, the APA does not consider it a disorder, therefore she would not be required to 'treat' it at all. It's a moot point. Neither has she ever said she would push her views or opinions on anyone while counseling, that's something that's been made up throughout this entire thread and is based on dishonesty. At least be honest and admit that you are making assumptions about what she would or would not do, because that's exactly what you are doing.

Actually Keeton has stated that she would not affirm her clients lifestyle. She has stated that Christian morals are applicable to ALL.

She has stated homosexuality is identity confusion. It is Keeton who is confused. She doesn't know whether she wants to be a professonal counselor or a Christian minister.

In other words, your problem with her is that she says she will not tell a gay student that his or her homosexuality is perfectly acceptable. She doesn't say that she will condemn the student, but your problem seems to be that she says she will not tell the student that "it is okay to be gay".

But Immy - that is one of the requirements of her chosen profession - it's summed up in the standard that states "affirmation" - and which applies to more than homosexuals.

In that particular, she is at odds with the professional standards she needs to adhere to in order to graduate with that particular degree.

That leaves two choices: change the standards, or grant her an exemption. If you grant her an exemption, then what is the value of those - or any - standards for a profession?

So, what this all boils down to is that according to you, all counselors have to tell all gays that it is okay to be gay and that Christians and others who do not agree with you are not allowed to practice psychology.

What a sad world that is going to be!

Immie

No. That is not what it boils down to, it's: if a student can not adhere to the accepted practices standards of her degree program, she can't graduate with that particular degree. It says nothing about how she behaves or chooses to conduct herself after graduation from that program.

It's no different then not allowing a faith healer, who refuses agree to the professional standards of his hoped for degree to graduate with that degree - yet, somehow, insert "homosexual" and all of a sudden, emotions flare and exemptions must be made.

That, to me seems rather sad

 

[Coyote]

I'm sorry, but you guys continue to dishonestly insist that she cannot behave as a professional.

No - I'm not insisting that because I do not know that.

What I do know is this: she needs to be able to demonstrate that, to the satisfaction of her degree committee, before she can graduate with that degree. It is no different than any other student. If her actions and words are at odds with her statements of intent then the school has every right to question her ability.

The code of ethics basically says do no harm, it does not say that one must affirm homosexuality. I have not seen one thing from her where she states that she will condemn such students. She simply says she will not tell them that it is okay to be gay.

Immie

The professional standard specifically states affirmation - it's been posted multiple times.

 

[Immanuel]

How open minded of her to think she can shove Christian morals down everyones throat everywhere she goes.

Again, you have no proof that she would do this.

That is the entire problem you have with your case, you have convicted her before she has committed the crime.

Immie

Immie, there is alot more to this story than meets the eye. I don't give Ms Keeton the benefit of the doubt because I have run into fanatics like her before.

She should not be licensed by the ACA or APA .

I don't care if she gets her degree I just want her to stay the hell away from vulnerable gay clients.

She needs to work for a Christian agency.

And if as she grows up she comes to realize that she was wrong and can work with such students?

Both sides of the issue are not known, but I see this as the professors persecuting a student that won't comply with their wishes. They are using their authoritative power to beat her down and under no circumstances should that be allowed.

She is being ordered to undergo diversity training. Other students are not! They have pulled her out of the other students in her class and put additional requirements upon her (one wonders if they are going to make her pay for this additional requirement as well) and that is the problem.

If they think "diversity training" is a necessity for the profession then they should include in in the curriculum for all students, not just Ms. Keeton.

Immie

 

[jillian]

And if as she grows up she comes to realize that she was wrong and can work with such students?

Both sides of the issue are not known, but I see this as the professors persecuting a student that won't comply with their wishes. They are using their authoritative power to beat her down and under no circumstances should that be allowed.

She is being ordered to undergo diversity training. Other students are not! They have pulled her out of the other students in her class and put additional requirements upon her (one wonders if they are going to make her pay for this additional requirement as well) and that is the problem.

If they think "diversity training" is a necessity for the profession then they should include in in the curriculum for all students, not just Ms. Keeton.

Immie

persecuting? what a terrible misnomer. is is 'persecution' for a medical student to study biology? chemistry? or should he whine if he's tossed from a pre-med program if he says the world is 6,000 years old?

no one is talking about 'diversity training', they're talking about the radical deciding she should pick and choose what she feels like from the course requirements.

like i said earlier, is a muslim being *persecuted* if he gets fired from a butcher shop for refusing to work with pork?

 

[Valerie]

And if as she grows up she comes to realize that she was wrong and can work with such students?

Both sides of the issue are not known, but I see this as the professors persecuting a student that won't comply with their wishes. They are using their authoritative power to beat her down and under no circumstances should that be allowed.

She is being ordered to undergo diversity training. Other students are not! They have pulled her out of the other students in her class and put additional requirements upon her (one wonders if they are going to make her pay for this additional requirement as well) and that is the problem.

If they think "diversity training" is a necessity for the profession then they should include in in the curriculum for all students, not just Ms. Keeton.

Immie

persecuting? what a terrible misnomer. is is 'persecution' for a medical student to study biology? chemistry? or should he whine if he's tossed from a pre-med program if he says the world is 6,000 years old?

no one is talking about 'diversity training', they're talking about the radical deciding she should pick and choose what she feels like from the course requirements.

like i said earlier, is a muslim being *persecuted* if he gets fired from a butcher shop for refusing to work with pork?

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread but I was thinking of this example last night....What if a student going for their law degree refused to defend a rapist in a mock trial during class...? Wouldn't the student fail the class for refusing to defend the rapist on the grounds they were morally opposed to rape?

 

[Sky Dancer]

And if as she grows up she comes to realize that she was wrong and can work with such students?

Both sides of the issue are not known, but I see this as the professors persecuting a student that won't comply with their wishes. They are using their authoritative power to beat her down and under no circumstances should that be allowed.

She is being ordered to undergo diversity training. Other students are not! They have pulled her out of the other students in her class and put additional requirements upon her (one wonders if they are going to make her pay for this additional requirement as well) and that is the problem.

If they think "diversity training" is a necessity for the profession then they should include in in the curriculum for all students, not just Ms. Keeton.

Immie

persecuting? what a terrible misnomer. is is 'persecution' for a medical student to study biology? chemistry? or should he whine if he's tossed from a pre-med program if he says the world is 6,000 years old?

no one is talking about 'diversity training', they're talking about the radical deciding she should pick and choose what she feels like from the course requirements.

like i said earlier, is a muslim being *persecuted* if he gets fired from a butcher shop for refusing to work with pork?

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread but I was thinking of this example last night....What if a student going for their law degree refused to defend a rapist in a mock trial during class...? Wouldn't the student fail the class for refusing to defend the rapist on the grounds they were morally opposed to rape?

A defense attorney needs to be able to defend clients regardless of the crime or wheher the defendant is guilty.

 

[Valerie]

persecuting? what a terrible misnomer. is is 'persecution' for a medical student to study biology? chemistry? or should he whine if he's tossed from a pre-med program if he says the world is 6,000 years old?

no one is talking about 'diversity training', they're talking about the radical deciding she should pick and choose what she feels like from the course requirements.

like i said earlier, is a muslim being *persecuted* if he gets fired from a butcher shop for refusing to work with pork?

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread but I was thinking of this example last night....What if a student going for their law degree refused to defend a rapist in a mock trial during class...? Wouldn't the student fail the class for refusing to defend the rapist on the grounds they were morally opposed to rape?

A defense attorney needs to be able to defend clients regardless of the crime or wheher the defendant is guilty.

Yes, that's what I'm saying...So if the student refuses to perform the legal exercise on the grounds it is against their morality to ever defend a rapist, would they not also fail law school just like this counseling student failed counseling school...?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Again, you have no proof that she would do this.

That is the entire problem you have with your case, you have convicted her before she has committed the crime.

Immie

Immie, there is alot more to this story than meets the eye. I don't give Ms Keeton the benefit of the doubt because I have run into fanatics like her before.

She should not be licensed by the ACA or APA .

I don't care if she gets her degree I just want her to stay the hell away from vulnerable gay clients.

She needs to work for a Christian agency.

And if as she grows up she comes to realize that she was wrong and can work with such students?

Both sides of the issue are not known, but I see this as the professors persecuting a student that won't comply with their wishes. They are using their authoritative power to beat her down and under no circumstances should that be allowed.

She is being ordered to undergo diversity training. Other students are not! They have pulled her out of the other students in her class and put additional requirements upon her (one wonders if they are going to make her pay for this additional requirement as well) and that is the problem.

If they think "diversity training" is a necessity for the profession then they should include in in the curriculum for all students, not just Ms. Keeton.

Immie

Ms Keeton is clearly in need of diversity training. Diversity training introduces the participant to cultural values other than their own.

Maybe Keeton needs to study with this gal instead of trying to make in a secular counseling program:

"Cindy Jacobs claims the power to cast out gay demons. During an evening ceremony at the conference Jacobs conducted a mass exorcism, casting out not only “spirits” of homosexuality but also spirits of pornography, addiction, lust, bisexuality, and perversion."
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy...virginia-gop-attorney-general-ken-cuccinelli/

 

[jillian]

And if as she grows up she comes to realize that she was wrong and can work with such students?

Both sides of the issue are not known, but I see this as the professors persecuting a student that won't comply with their wishes. They are using their authoritative power to beat her down and under no circumstances should that be allowed.

She is being ordered to undergo diversity training. Other students are not! They have pulled her out of the other students in her class and put additional requirements upon her (one wonders if they are going to make her pay for this additional requirement as well) and that is the problem.

If they think "diversity training" is a necessity for the profession then they should include in in the curriculum for all students, not just Ms. Keeton.

Immie

persecuting? what a terrible misnomer. is is 'persecution' for a medical student to study biology? chemistry? or should he whine if he's tossed from a pre-med program if he says the world is 6,000 years old?

no one is talking about 'diversity training', they're talking about the radical deciding she should pick and choose what she feels like from the course requirements.

like i said earlier, is a muslim being *persecuted* if he gets fired from a butcher shop for refusing to work with pork?

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread but I was thinking of this example last night....What if a student going for their law degree refused to defend a rapist in a mock trial during class...? Wouldn't the student fail the class for refusing to defend the rapist on the grounds they were morally opposed to rape?

yes, and rightfully so.

 

[Immanuel]

And if as she grows up she comes to realize that she was wrong and can work with such students?

Both sides of the issue are not known, but I see this as the professors persecuting a student that won't comply with their wishes. They are using their authoritative power to beat her down and under no circumstances should that be allowed.

She is being ordered to undergo diversity training. Other students are not! They have pulled her out of the other students in her class and put additional requirements upon her (one wonders if they are going to make her pay for this additional requirement as well) and that is the problem.

If they think "diversity training" is a necessity for the profession then they should include in in the curriculum for all students, not just Ms. Keeton.

Immie

persecuting? what a terrible misnomer. is is 'persecution' for a medical student to study biology? chemistry? or should he whine if he's tossed from a pre-med program if he says the world is 6,000 years old?

no one is talking about 'diversity training', they're talking about the radical deciding she should pick and choose what she feels like from the course requirements.

like i said earlier, is a muslim being *persecuted* if he gets fired from a butcher shop for refusing to work with pork?

You are incorrect in this. They are talking about diversity training. They told her she could continue if she went through "remediation training" = diversity training and they want her to attend a gay pride parade.

They are not insisting that other students attend these events.

As for your comment about pre-med, if passing those courses is required for the program for all students and someone does not pass those courses then he should be expelled. That is not the case here. Here the only indication we have as to what is going on, is that the school wants to segregate her and force her to change her beliefs or lose every dime she has paid into the program and get nothing in return.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

The Bible apparently says that homosexuality is a sin. But so what Ms Keeton?