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There can be two America's
The America of Fuck You- The one that does torture, and does not respect international laws
The America of Fuck Yeah- No torture, respects international laws and is respected around the world.
On the "The ends do not justify means" responses
Depends what ends and what means.
Say the end is stopping 9/11 from ever occurring. The means are killing a mans family in front of him, waterboarding, or torture in general, and breaking international laws.
Is that like "two wrongs don't make a right"?
When it comes to saving lives, the ends do in-fact justify the means.
Of course they do. However, who says that torture is really necessary to achieve the end though? There is always a way to avoid torture, it just isn't the easy way. The easy way out is usually the fast way down.
How about the means are looking thru a terrorists laptop, and the end is stopping 9/11?Say the end is stopping 9/11 from ever occurring. The means are killing a mans family in front of him, waterboarding, or torture in general, and breaking international laws.
Its a judgement call, besides waterboarding isn't torture. Maybe you should have this debate w/Alan Dershowitz? He'll explain it to you.Of course the ends justify the means. However, who says that torture is really necessary to achieve the end though? There is always a way to avoid torture, it just isn't the easy way. The easy way out is usually the fast way down.
yea yea Mike, Tenet had evidence Iraq would be a slam dunk and we all saw what a fiasco that turned out to be
Earth to Mike Mike , theres the problem , you believe them , I don't and we know those assholes have never lied before! LOL
You are certainly entited to be irrational. That is your right.
However, the position that they lied because they are the CIA, therefore, they are lying, is pretty rediculous.
So does biological and nuclear warfare. Only a barbarian resorts to any of the above, only a troll supports the barbarian.Torture Works
Earth to Mike Mike , theres the problem , you believe them , I don't and we know those assholes have never lied before! LOL
You are certainly entited to be irrational. That is your right.
However, the position that they lied because they are the CIA, therefore, they are lying, is pretty rediculous.
And you are gulible enough to take the word these known liars is even more rediculous
Even Ronnie Braindead Raygun said "Trust but verify" and we only have the word of proven liars
TAPPED Archive | The American Prospect
UNDERNEWS: A SHORT HISTORY OF CIA LIES TO CONGRESS
CIA lies to Congress: widening reaction, leaks hint terrorism collection
The Washington Monthly
Screw the last decade , these pond scum have lied to us from day one, I think you may have what most would consider a pattern here, except braindead mike, go figure
Because they are the source. They have accountability.
It was also reviewed by the Inspector General and DOJ.
Any evidence at all that lied?
One credible source?
They don't have accountability if they destroyed material that could either corroberate or refute what they said. Being reviewd by the IG and DoJ mean nothing - all that was "reviewed" was their own memos.
What kind of "accountability" is that?
So if President Obama writes a memo claiming that the stimulus created a ton of jobs, destroys any supporting documentation and has it reviewed by the GAO then, of course you would believe it?
How about Obama kept his promise about transparency and put his health care bill on the internet? He wouldn't even do that.
The difference is what the public knows about his health care bill doesn't jeopardize national security and lead to further terrorist attacks.
If the public and the "enemy" found out the details of sensitive intelligence information that DOES compromise national security and puts this country in jeopardy.
There is a reason these things are very highly secret. It's because we are in an intelligence war. And information that the CIA gets from terrorists is critical to this country, and keeping it secret is critical to this country. That doesn't allow for an open review.
How far are you going to take this "trust me" attitude? You seem willing to give up and accept anything, on the fear-mongering of national security without demanding even a minimum of accountability - without even questioning the timing and reasoning for destroying evidence that, in your book should support the CIA's actions.
Torture is fine isn't it - as long as it's done in the nebulous name of "national security" - you will ask no questions and demand no accounting.
There is a reason these things are very highly secret. It's because we are in an intelligence war. And information that the CIA gets from terrorists is critical to this country, and keeping it secret is critical to this country. That doesn't allow for an open review.
No one is calling for an "open review". However no agency should have have the power that you appear willing to grant the CIA - blanket permission to do anything in the name of national security, with no accountability. That's what it is.
No accountability to Congress - elected representatives of the people.
No accountability to the Courts.
If I am going to be "protected" by the CIA, I damn well want to know what is being done in my name and for my "security". Anything less....is being a sheep.
They don't have accountability if they destroyed material that could either corroberate or refute what they said. Being reviewd by the IG and DoJ mean nothing - all that was "reviewed" was their own memos.
What kind of "accountability" is that?
So if President Obama writes a memo claiming that the stimulus created a ton of jobs, destroys any supporting documentation and has it reviewed by the GAO then, of course you would believe it?
How about Obama kept his promise about transparency and put his health care bill on the internet? He wouldn't even do that.
Irrelevent. That in no way confers accountability. There is none.
If the public and the "enemy" found out the details of sensitive intelligence information that DOES compromise national security and puts this country in jeopardy.
It's very relevant. I am making a point.
The point is that we are in an intelligence war.
There is a reason that US intelligence agencies need to keep this stuff secret. The reason is that if methods, intelligence information, actual CIA operatives, are publically known, they will then be known by the enemy.
That information will then be used by the enemy to further their aim of terrorist attacks of killing as many civlians as possible.
Maybe. According to THEM.
How far are you going to take this "trust me" attitude? You seem willing to give up and accept anything, on the fear-mongering of national security without demanding even a minimum of accountability - without even questioning the timing and reasoning for destroying evidence that, in your book should support the CIA's actions.
What am I giving up?
The CIA acted very appropriately. They were reviewed by the DOJ and the Inspector General. They even informed Nancy Pelosi about the waterboarding.
The Inspector General said that the CIA acted very appropriately. That they were very careful not to use any more discomfort to the terrorists that was needed in order to stop the terrorist attacks.
Torture is fine isn't it - as long as it's done in the nebulous name of "national security" - you will ask no questions and demand no accounting.
I don't accept your premise that it was torture.
The only reason that you even know about waterboarding is because the CIA told the appropriate people about it. If the CIA wanted too they could have not told anyone about it. But that's not what happened. They told the DOJ and even Nancy Pelosi.
There is a reason these things are very highly secret. It's because we are in an intelligence war. And information that the CIA gets from terrorists is critical to this country, and keeping it secret is critical to this country. That doesn't allow for an open review.
No one is calling for an "open review". However no agency should have have the power that you appear willing to grant the CIA - blanket permission to do anything in the name of national security, with no accountability. That's what it is.
No that's not what it is.
No accountability to Congress - elected representatives of the people.
No accountability to the Courts.
The CIA told the arch leftist Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi about the waterboarding.
And no I don't want congress to know the details of what the terrorists said and did. That information is too sensitive.
Courts only get involved when someone broke the law. Despite the left wingers trying to make it a criminal issue, it isn't.
If I am going to be "protected" by the CIA, I damn well want to know what is being done in my name and for my "security". Anything less....is being a sheep.
Well you aren't going too. I don't know what is being done and information the CIA obtains. Why? Because if I know it Al Qaida will know it. And that will use that information to kill americans.
It's really an easy concept to grasp. What is so difficult to understand?
We are in an intelligence war. Al Qaida only has to be right once out of countless attempts to kill thousands of americans. Intelligence that the CIA needs to be kept secret, because not doing so will result in countless americans being killed.
Now you may be unwilling to do this. But we have to put some trust in the people out there, in the foxholes, protecting americans from terrorists. Their actions will either protect american civlians from being killed or allow for american civilians be killed.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that the CIA has not told the truth.
Other than the "bush lied, people died" left wing mottothere is not one iota of reason in accusing the CIA of lying.
I don't want to know the CIA methods, or intelligence information that they gather.
And the purpose of the videos was so that the CIA can use that information to stop terrorist attacks, it's purpose is not for political issues. Terrorism is too important to be this petty.
Most importantly, it worked
The waterboarding of the 3 arch terrorists, which was milder than what is used on CIA personnel in their training:
1) Stopped a terrroist attack of a plane flying into a Los Angeles building
2) Thwarted a plan to stop a "dirty bomb" from being built and exploding in Washington, D.C.
3) Led to over 6,000 intelligence reports
4) Was responsible for over half the information about Al Qaida gotten from intelligence
It was well worth it
For those of us who grew up in the fifties and sixties, WWII and the holocaust were formative examples of the potential behavior of humans. How could the Germans, a people so advanced in intelligence, knowledge become vicious, sadistic murderers. Move forward to 2001 and you learn too quickly. Fear, insecurity, the unknown, death and carnage remove the thin surface of reason making all people potentially evil.
Becoming evil: how ordinary people ... - Google Books
"We first kill people with our minds, before we kill them with weapons. Whatever the conflict, the enemy is always the destroyer. We're on God's side; they're barbaric. We're good, they're evil. War gives us a feeling of moral clarity that we lack at other times." Sam Keen
Yah, waterboarding is torture. Anyone who says it isn't is torturing the English language and general logic. General Petraeus says that torture isn't the way to go. Let's see here: go with the General and logical or with the political trolls?
Yah, waterboarding is torture. Anyone who says it isn't is torturing the English language and general logic. General Petraeus says that torture isn't the way to go. Let's see here: go with the General and logical or with the political trolls?
1. Petraeus has to avoid controversy especially since he has political ambitions.
2. Ask Cheney, Condi, Tenet, Hadley, Haden, John Yoo, etc. the guys in the waterboarding loop, they all supported getting KSM downloaded ASAP.
3. If waterboarding is "torture" it didn't disfigure KSM much, he still looks like a turd.
I still say that Obama and Holder can be prosecuted by the next admin for blabbing CIA secret interrogation techniques. Paybacks are a bitch.
