Traditional Values Defined

[LuvRPgrl]

I disagree. Most of our laws are those that are accepted by every culture, every religion, every state, almost without exception. Laws against murder, theft, perjury, etc. are universal, and IMO inate.

I believe this country has become great, not because of Christianity, but in spite of it. The conglomeration of cultures, and races, and religions, and ideas led to our success. The stifling influence of any ONE set of beliefs was brilliantly written out by the founders.

The seed of this nation was planted long before there was any serious conglomoration of cultures and races.

You need to go read George Washington's stuff. He, was by the way, the only person to turn down the Presidency. aka "the father of our country". Particularly, read his Thanksgiving day Proclamation.

 

[MissileMan]

The seed of this nation was planted long before there was any serious conglomoration of cultures and races.

You need to go read George Washington's stuff. He, was by the way, the only person to turn down the Presidency. aka "the father of our country". Particularly, read his Thanksgiving day Proclamation.

As an individual, he was free to express his own religious convictions as everyone is. While freedom to practice the religion of one's choice is clearly written into the Constitution, religion is just as clearly absent from the rest of it.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

As an individual, he was free to express his own religious convictions as everyone is. While freedom to practice the religion of one's choice is clearly written into the Constitution, religion is just as clearly absent from the rest of it.

But the extent of the intended involvement between state and religion is explicity stated. Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion. This does not apply to lawn decorations or prayers in a legislature or schools for that matter.

 

[MissileMan]

you're allowed. You're free.

Because of my Constitutionally-given, legal rights, not religious ones. Apparently, that's a tough pill to swallow for would-be theocrats. Don't try to allege that freedom of speech is a Christian ideal when history is full of instances of people killed by Christians for speaking their minds.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Because of my Constitutionally-given, legal rights, not religious ones. Apparently, that's a tough pill to swallow for would-be theocrats. Don't try to allege that freedom of speech is a Christian ideal when history is full of instances of people killed by Christians for speaking their minds.

The point is this: Christianity teaches god wants those who choose him. He is not coercive. Violence in the past was twisting the teachings.

 

[MissileMan]

But the extent of the intended involvement between state and religion is explicity stated. Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion. This does not apply to lawn decorations or prayers in a legislature or schools for that matter.

I think they also intended to exclude preference of any single religion in the establishment clause. There was an ABC special a couple of weeks ago about religion. They claimed there are over 10,000 different religions in the world right now. It would be impossible to make concessions for that many and keep things even.

I don't think the establishment clause has anything to do with lawn decorations, but IMO, it applies to public buildings (especially courthouses), and publically-funded schools.

 

[archangel]

I think they also intended to exclude preference of any single religion in the establishment clause. There was an ABC special a couple of weeks ago about religion. They claimed there are over 10,000 different religions in the world right now. It would be impossible to make concessions for that many and keep things even.

I don't think the establishment clause has anything to do with lawn decorations, but IMO, it applies to public buildings (especially courthouses), and publically-funded schools.

look I am not a prude or one to push my beliefs down anyones throat...however I did grow up as a Catholic...heck my big brother was even a Alter Boy...not me cause I was considered a 'Dennis the Mennace'(pun)..but being totally honest and 60 something I can say without predjudice that I was never molested or had anything 'bad' happen to me from a Priest growing up...so to go on bashing religion as some in here do... quite frequently... makes one wonder why they feel this way...end of story!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I think they also intended to exclude preference of any single religion in the establishment clause. There was an ABC special a couple of weeks ago about religion. They claimed there are over 10,000 different religions in the world right now. It would be impossible to make concessions for that many and keep things even.

I don't think the establishment clause has anything to do with lawn decorations, but IMO, it applies to public buildings (especially courthouses), and publically-funded schools.

There is nothing in the constitution supporting what you have said here.

 

[musicman]

Because of my Constitutionally-given, legal rights, not religious ones.

That's a preposterous statement, MM. Not a single one of the framers would have presumed to call your fundamental rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness "Constitutionally-given", and you know it. That was the entire point of the exercise; these rights are not "given" you by man, or any of his feeble instruments. They are inviolable - you were born with them - they were given you by God. THAT is the Christian principle upon which this nation - and YOUR freedom to worship as you choose, or not at all - were built.

Apparently, that's a tough pill to swallow for would-be theocrats.

Since man's free will is the bedrock principle from which Christianity springs - and, since the sole governmental system in all of human history built on this principle has given rise to freedom, acheivement, and progress on a scale that can only be described as miraculous - I am always amazed by the term, "Christian theocrat". Could you please name one of these fabled characters for me? He'd either have to be a poor Christian or a poor theocrat.

Don't try to allege that freedom of speech is a Christian ideal...

Then, please tell me where and when else in all of history you'd have enjoyed it on the scale you do here, today. A communist dictatorship? An Islamic theocracy? Any of the politically correct socialist regimes springing up in Post-Christian Europe? Seems I read about a preacher getting arrested for preaching against homosexuality in Europe - or was it Canada?

Just so we're clear, MM - I'm not ALLEGING that freedom of speech is a Christian ideal - I'm saying it outright.

...when history is full of instances of people killed by Christians for speaking their minds.

Christians are - first and foremost - human beings, MM. Don't hold us up to a standard you wouldn't expect of anyone else. Remember - humanity is essentially corrupt and self-serving; any time it can triumph over its basic, murderous, tyrannical nature, that's a remarkable thing.

Having said that, may I ask you to provide a few examples?

 

[Nienna]

Just so we're clear, MM - I'm not ALLEGING that freedom of speech is a Christian ideal - I'm saying it outright.

Oh, MusicMan! :bats eyelashes and swoons:

 

[MissileMan]

That's a preposterous statement, MM. Not a single one of the framers would have presumed to call your fundamental rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness "Constitutionally-given", and you know it. That was the entire point of the exercise; these rights are not "given" you by man, or any of his feeble instruments. They are inviolable - you were born with them - they were given you by God. THAT is the Christian principle upon which this nation - and YOUR freedom to worship as you choose, or not at all - were built.



Since man's free will is the bedrock principle from which Christianity springs - and, since the sole governmental system in all of human history built on this principle has given rise to freedom, acheivement, and progress on a scale that can only be described as miraculous - I am always amazed by the term, "Christian theocrat". Could you please name one of these fabled characters for me? He'd either have to be a poor Christian or a poor theocrat.



Then, please tell me where and when else in all of history you'd have enjoyed it on the scale you do here, today. A communist dictatorship? An Islamic theocracy? Any of the politically correct socialist regimes springing up in Post-Christian Europe? Seems I read about a preacher getting arrested for preaching against homosexuality in Europe - or was it Canada?

Just so we're clear, MM - I'm not ALLEGING that freedom of speech is a Christian ideal - I'm saying it outright.



Christians are - first and foremost - human beings, MM. Don't hold us up to a standard you wouldn't expect of anyone else. Remember - humanity is essentially corrupt and self-serving; any time it can triumph over its basic, murderous, tyrannical nature, that's a remarkable thing.

Having said that, may I ask you to provide a few examples?

The grand experiment to which you refer established a government where all citizens had a say and all were to be held to an equal standard, regardless of station or religion. I would have included race and gender, but we all know that wasn't how things started out. You can keep claiming that democracy is a Christian ideal, but it doesn't make it so. Or are you implying that it took nearly 1800 years for someone to find it in the Bible?

As for a few examples, do a google on Christians put to death for heresy. I was able to find several named instances, one as late as 1600.

 

[musicman]

You can keep claiming that democracy is a Christian ideal, but it doesn't make it so.

Well, I didn't say that democracy is a Christian ideal - I said freedom of speech is - and I say it again. If you don't believe me, hide and watch Post-Christian Europe for the next few years. Freedom of speech - along with representative government - are proving to be fast-fading remnants of a bygone era.

As for a few examples, do a google on Christians put to death for heresy.

How does this make them killers? Sounds to me like they were the "kill-ees"!

 

[MissileMan]

Well, I didn't say that democracy is a Christian ideal - I said freedom of speech is - and I say it again. If you don't believe me, hide and watch Post-Christian Europe for the next few years. Freedom of speech - along with representative government - are proving to be fast-fading remnants of a bygone era.

The original settlers of this country came here to escape religious persecution and oppression from other Christians. They weren't allowed to say what they felt or believed if it conflicted with doctrine.

How does this make them killers? Sounds to me like they were the "kill-ees"!

On whose orders do you suppose they were killed? Martians?

 

[musicman]

The original settlers of this country came here to escape religious persecution and oppression from other Christians.

No - they came here to escape religious persecution and oppression from government. Ultimately, their system of government protected religious freedom FROM government - government being recognized as the danger. As badly as the concept of "separation of church and state" has been mangled by agenda-wielding secularists, its true purpose has always been the protection of religious freedom.

On whose orders do you suppose they were killed? Martians?

Nope - upon the orders of a corrupt and apostate Catholic Church, seeking to stamp out the Protestant Reformation. How far can one possibly stray from Christianity's bedrock principle - the free agency of man - than, "worship this way or I'll kill you?" Sheesh - they sound like Muslims - or Democrats.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Oh, MusicMan! :bats eyelashes and swoons:

Mom, you'll have to fight me for him.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

As an individual, he was free to express his own religious convictions as everyone is. While freedom to practice the religion of one's choice is clearly written into the Constitution, religion is just as clearly absent from the rest of it.

So you dont want to read his writings eh?

Well, he explicitly spells out how our laws and governence come from Christianity. He also states that without a Christian backbone to maintain our govt, it will cease to exist.

The first amendment also had nothing NOTHING to do with seperation of church and state. It was written so the INDIVIDUAL STATES COULD DECIDE THEIR OWN STATE RELIGIONS. Of which most, if not all, did. They didnt want the central govt dictating to the States/colonies/commonweaths, what their official religion should be. This was because the colonies wanted an "OFFICIAL STATE RELIGION" other than the Chruch of England, but King George forbade it. Hence they made it unconstitutional for the CENTRAL govt to dictate an official religion for all of the states.

Religion is only absent from it because it gets down to the details of the laws, the Declaration of Ind. and the Preamble state all that needs to be stated regarding the force of Christianity, Providence and Almight God that has inspired and created the documents, including the Constitution.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Because of my Constitutionally-given, legal rights, not religious ones. Apparently, that's a tough pill to swallow for would-be theocrats. Don't try to allege that freedom of speech is a Christian ideal when history is full of instances of people killed by Christians for speaking their minds.

You confuse Christian Ideals with Christians actions. You use the "actions" of some self proclaimed Christians to mis represent what the Christian Ideal teaches. Please show me in Christian doctrine where it tells us to go kill people in the name of Christ.

Now, the freedom of speech most certainly is given to us through religous ideals. "We hold these truths to be self evident,... ...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among these... ....And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

You simply cannot seperate this document from the Constitution, because it states clearly the legal basis for the Constitution. The Constitution is merely the day to day details of how the rights given to us by our Creator will be sustained in the legal parlours of the govt.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I think they also intended to exclude preference of any single religion in the establishment clause. There was an ABC special a couple of weeks ago about religion. They claimed there are over 10,000 different religions in the world right now. It would be impossible to make concessions for that many and keep things even.

I don't think the establishment clause has anything to do with lawn decorations, but IMO, it applies to public buildings (especially courthouses), and publically-funded schools.

Wrong. It has nothing to do with nothing. It merely is there for ONE reason, and one reason only. To allow the individual states to dictate their own chosen state religions. PERIOD. Its in the words of the amendment, its in the writings of the authors of the Constitution, and its in the preamble and the Dec. of Ind.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

That's a preposterous statement, MM. Not a single one of the framers would have presumed to call your fundamental rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness "Constitutionally-given", and you know it. That was the entire point of the exercise; these rights are not "given" you by man, or any of his feeble instruments. They are inviolable - you were born with them - they were given you by God. THAT is the Christian principle upon which this nation - and YOUR freedom to worship as you choose, or not at all - were built.



Since man's free will is the bedrock principle from which Christianity springs - and, since the sole governmental system in all of human history built on this principle has given rise to freedom, acheivement, and progress on a scale that can only be described as miraculous - I am always amazed by the term, "Christian theocrat". Could you please name one of these fabled characters for me? He'd either have to be a poor Christian or a poor theocrat.



Then, please tell me where and when else in all of history you'd have enjoyed it on the scale you do here, today. A communist dictatorship? An Islamic theocracy? Any of the politically correct socialist regimes springing up in Post-Christian Europe? Seems I read about a preacher getting arrested for preaching against homosexuality in Europe - or was it Canada?

Just so we're clear, MM - I'm not ALLEGING that freedom of speech is a Christian ideal - I'm saying it outright.



Christians are - first and foremost - human beings, MM. Don't hold us up to a standard you wouldn't expect of anyone else. Remember - humanity is essentially corrupt and self-serving; any time it can triumph over its basic, murderous, tyrannical nature, that's a remarkable thing.

Having said that, may I ask you to provide a few examples?

It was Sweden I believe. Also, in the UK, a lady was visited by the Police, because she had made some anti homosexual statements.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

The grand experiment to which you refer established a government where all citizens had a say and all were to be held to an equal standard, regardless of station or religion. I would have included race and gender, but we all know that wasn't how things started out. You can keep claiming that democracy is a Christian ideal, but it doesn't make it so. Or are you implying that it took nearly 1800 years for someone to find it in the Bible?

As for a few examples, do a google on Christians put to death for heresy. I was able to find several named instances, one as late as 1600.

Thats also not true. Only free white land owners were allowed to vote.

It didnt take 1800 years for someone to find it in the Bible, but it took that long for societies and culture to allow it to be expressed.