Trump: Police need to be thanked, not constantly derided

[bucs90]

Thanks. I read the Cato one. SHOCKING but not how you'd think. Cato said the rate of ALLEGED misconduct by cops is about 997 per 100,000 officers. Or.....roughly 1 in 1000.

So....what % of cops engage in misconduct according to Cato? 0.1%.

Washington Post:
They shot 1000 in 2015. A "Year of Reckoning" huh?
Hmmmm. 1,000,000 cops in America. Let's go say for arguments sake....half of those are clearly justified.

So....1,000,000 cops shot 500 people in which circumstances were questionable (Washington Post says almost all had weapons used against the cop but just for arguments sake) Thats.....what %? 0.05%

So......0.05% of cops are involved in a questionable shooting.
And.....0.1% are involved in ALLEGED misconduct.

Hmmmm. Sounds like a tiny...nearly immeasurable problem that needs to be handled on the local level.

Apparently you did not read where it said it was not an accurate figure that it relied upon submission by the agency, they were hamstrung and the figures are skewed, meaning that they had to relie on the press to get headlines for most of these reports.

All I am saying is that they need to submit the reports as the congressional act said they should, if it is so low why are they hiding the information? Lack of transparency, and hide behind laws of the states that were made to not report misconduct to an independent source. They can keep it secret and have the FBI monitor it. At least it would be better then the current method which is nothing at all.

That's not true. It all goes to the state police. And the state police can be FOIA requested. Also....they usually just package it for an annual pickup by the local FBI office. I actually used to work a desk in the PD office where the state police audited all ours.


Don't let the media trick everyone with this shit. They lie and dramatize way too much already.

Nope I got this info from fbi director Comey

FBI Mobile Site

So I guess you are calling FBI director Comey a liar. Lol Only some police forces submit only justified homicide to the police.

Here are some highlights from the speech. And when an FBI director and president of the United States says there is a problem I suppose they are both liars using your logic.

"....Not long after riots broke out in Ferguson late last summer, I asked my staff to tell me how many people shot by police were African-American in this country. I wanted to see trends. I wanted to see information. They couldn’t give it to me, and it wasn’t their fault. Demographic data regarding officer-involved shootings is not consistently reported to us through our Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Because reporting is voluntary, our data is incomplete and therefore, in the aggregate, unreliable.

I recently listened to a thoughtful big city police chief express his frustration with that lack of reliable data. He said he didn’t know whether the Ferguson police shot one person a week, one a year, or one a century, and that in the absence of good data, “all we get are ideological thunderbolts, when what we need are ideological agnostics who use information to try to solve problems.” He’s right.

The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but, without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.

How can we address concerns about “use of force,” how can we address concerns about officer-involved shootings if we do not have a reliable grasp on the demographics and circumstances of those incidents? We simply must improve the way we collect and analyze data to see the true nature of what’s happening in all of our communities.

The FBI tracks and publishes the number of “justifiable homicides” reported by police departments. But, again, reporting by police departments is voluntary and not all departments participate. That means we cannot fully track the number of incidents in which force is used by police, or against police, including non-fatal encounters, which are not reported at all."

- See more at: Excessive or reasonable force by police? Research on law enforcement and racial conflict - Journalist's Resource

Apparently f

Washington Post 2015 police shooting stats.
DOJ stats on claims of police abuse (that stat is 5%. 5% of cops are accused of wrongdoing...and that includes false allegations.)

A year of reckoning: Police fatally shoot nearly 1,000

Actually read the article next time. They are mandated by congress to submit misconduct, shooting and criminal activity. They do not and the article even says that no governemrnt agency does the research.

The media did an investigation, which means, yes it will make a few headlines than go back to regular business as usual. Those stats that the article posted are not scientific nor are they accurate.

Cato institute did more extensive research in 2010.

2010 Annual Report

Read it. It is interesting.

Thanks. I read the Cato one. SHOCKING but not how you'd think. Cato said the rate of ALLEGED misconduct by cops is about 997 per 100,000 officers. Or.....roughly 1 in 1000.

So....what % of cops engage in misconduct according to Cato? 0.1%.

Washington Post:
They shot 1000 in 2015. A "Year of Reckoning" huh?
Hmmmm. 1,000,000 cops in America. Let's say for arguments sake....half of those are clearly justified.

So....1,000,000 cops shot 500 people in which circumstances were questionable (Washington Post says almost all had weapons used against the cop but just for arguments sake) Thats.....what %? 0.05%

So......0.05% of cops are involved in a questionable shooting.
And.....0.1% are involved in ALLEGED misconduct.

Hmmmm. Sounds like a tiny...nearly immeasurable problem that needs to be handled on the local level.

Apparently you did not read where it said it was not an accurate figure that it relied upon submission by the agency, they were hamstrung and the figures are skewed, meaning that they had to relie on the press to get headlines for most of these reports.

You said they're mandated by Congress to submit the info. Then said they don't have to submit the info.

That's such a common myth/misconception. All PDs report misoncudct and shooting info to 2 places....the STATE law enforcement agency and the coroner's office (if there is a death).

All anyone has to do....is FOIA all 50 state police agencies. It's easy.

BUT the media plays out this whole "Oh we had to dig so deep for this info" to make.everyone think it was an Indiana Jones style quest. It's not. It's all there. State police have it.

When the FBI director cannot get the info but you can? Wow you should take his job you got my vote.

He can. They just have to FOIA all 50 state police agencies. Now....there is a tradition of bickering between federal, state and local police so I'm not saying it's easy. That's probably why the FBI said it....to pressure the 50 state agencies to do a lot of things in a more friendly manner.

But shootings can't be hidden. Bodies and medical records exist.

As you said....they get stats on police justifiable homicide. Any non justified is just classified as "murder". It's not hidden at all. Just classified under a different UCR code.

 

[TimothysAlaska]

Thanks. I read the Cato one. SHOCKING but not how you'd think. Cato said the rate of ALLEGED misconduct by cops is about 997 per 100,000 officers. Or.....roughly 1 in 1000.

So....what % of cops engage in misconduct according to Cato? 0.1%.

Washington Post:
They shot 1000 in 2015. A "Year of Reckoning" huh?
Hmmmm. 1,000,000 cops in America. Let's go say for arguments sake....half of those are clearly justified.

So....1,000,000 cops shot 500 people in which circumstances were questionable (Washington Post says almost all had weapons used against the cop but just for arguments sake) Thats.....what %? 0.05%

So......0.05% of cops are involved in a questionable shooting.
And.....0.1% are involved in ALLEGED misconduct.

Hmmmm. Sounds like a tiny...nearly immeasurable problem that needs to be handled on the local level.

Apparently you did not read where it said it was not an accurate figure that it relied upon submission by the agency, they were hamstrung and the figures are skewed, meaning that they had to relie on the press to get headlines for most of these reports.

All I am saying is that they need to submit the reports as the congressional act said they should, if it is so low why are they hiding the information? Lack of transparency, and hide behind laws of the states that were made to not report misconduct to an independent source. They can keep it secret and have the FBI monitor it. At least it would be better then the current method which is nothing at all.

That's not true. It all goes to the state police. And the state police can be FOIA requested. Also....they usually just package it for an annual pickup by the local FBI office. I actually used to work a desk in the PD office where the state police audited all ours.


Don't let the media trick everyone with this shit. They lie and dramatize way too much already.

Nope I got this info from fbi director Comey

FBI Mobile Site

So I guess you are calling FBI director Comey a liar. Lol Only some police forces submit only justified homicide to the police.

Here are some highlights from the speech. And when an FBI director and president of the United States says there is a problem I suppose they are both liars using your logic.

"....Not long after riots broke out in Ferguson late last summer, I asked my staff to tell me how many people shot by police were African-American in this country. I wanted to see trends. I wanted to see information. They couldn’t give it to me, and it wasn’t their fault. Demographic data regarding officer-involved shootings is not consistently reported to us through our Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Because reporting is voluntary, our data is incomplete and therefore, in the aggregate, unreliable.

I recently listened to a thoughtful big city police chief express his frustration with that lack of reliable data. He said he didn’t know whether the Ferguson police shot one person a week, one a year, or one a century, and that in the absence of good data, “all we get are ideological thunderbolts, when what we need are ideological agnostics who use information to try to solve problems.” He’s right.

The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but, without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.

How can we address concerns about “use of force,” how can we address concerns about officer-involved shootings if we do not have a reliable grasp on the demographics and circumstances of those incidents? We simply must improve the way we collect and analyze data to see the true nature of what’s happening in all of our communities.

The FBI tracks and publishes the number of “justifiable homicides” reported by police departments. But, again, reporting by police departments is voluntary and not all departments participate. That means we cannot fully track the number of incidents in which force is used by police, or against police, including non-fatal encounters, which are not reported at all."

- See more at: Excessive or reasonable force by police? Research on law enforcement and racial conflict - Journalist's Resource

I read his speech though and he makes some excellent points about the cynicism cops develop on the job. That's absolutely true and it's a battle police departments have yet to figure out: how to send hopeful and enthusiastic young officers into shitholes day after day.....and not have them become cynical of suspects.

Then that is a psychological problem and as I said before they need a standardized test to take yearly. The military does such tests before and after deployments to see if problems exist. If the job is that bad and they become cynical they need to see this data and retrain or remove them from duty to prevent issues. But they do not have to take yearly psychological tests. This could solve some major issues.

 

[bucs90]

Apparently you did not read where it said it was not an accurate figure that it relied upon submission by the agency, they were hamstrung and the figures are skewed, meaning that they had to relie on the press to get headlines for most of these reports.

All I am saying is that they need to submit the reports as the congressional act said they should, if it is so low why are they hiding the information? Lack of transparency, and hide behind laws of the states that were made to not report misconduct to an independent source. They can keep it secret and have the FBI monitor it. At least it would be better then the current method which is nothing at all.

That's not true. It all goes to the state police. And the state police can be FOIA requested. Also....they usually just package it for an annual pickup by the local FBI office. I actually used to work a desk in the PD office where the state police audited all ours.


Don't let the media trick everyone with this shit. They lie and dramatize way too much already.

Nope I got this info from fbi director Comey

FBI Mobile Site

So I guess you are calling FBI director Comey a liar. Lol Only some police forces submit only justified homicide to the police.

Here are some highlights from the speech. And when an FBI director and president of the United States says there is a problem I suppose they are both liars using your logic.

"....Not long after riots broke out in Ferguson late last summer, I asked my staff to tell me how many people shot by police were African-American in this country. I wanted to see trends. I wanted to see information. They couldn’t give it to me, and it wasn’t their fault. Demographic data regarding officer-involved shootings is not consistently reported to us through our Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Because reporting is voluntary, our data is incomplete and therefore, in the aggregate, unreliable.

I recently listened to a thoughtful big city police chief express his frustration with that lack of reliable data. He said he didn’t know whether the Ferguson police shot one person a week, one a year, or one a century, and that in the absence of good data, “all we get are ideological thunderbolts, when what we need are ideological agnostics who use information to try to solve problems.” He’s right.

The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but, without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.

How can we address concerns about “use of force,” how can we address concerns about officer-involved shootings if we do not have a reliable grasp on the demographics and circumstances of those incidents? We simply must improve the way we collect and analyze data to see the true nature of what’s happening in all of our communities.

The FBI tracks and publishes the number of “justifiable homicides” reported by police departments. But, again, reporting by police departments is voluntary and not all departments participate. That means we cannot fully track the number of incidents in which force is used by police, or against police, including non-fatal encounters, which are not reported at all."

- See more at: Excessive or reasonable force by police? Research on law enforcement and racial conflict - Journalist's Resource

Apparently f

A year of reckoning: Police fatally shoot nearly 1,000

Actually read the article next time. They are mandated by congress to submit misconduct, shooting and criminal activity. They do not and the article even says that no governemrnt agency does the research.

The media did an investigation, which means, yes it will make a few headlines than go back to regular business as usual. Those stats that the article posted are not scientific nor are they accurate.

Cato institute did more extensive research in 2010.

2010 Annual Report

Read it. It is interesting.

Thanks. I read the Cato one. SHOCKING but not how you'd think. Cato said the rate of ALLEGED misconduct by cops is about 997 per 100,000 officers. Or.....roughly 1 in 1000.

So....what % of cops engage in misconduct according to Cato? 0.1%.

Washington Post:
They shot 1000 in 2015. A "Year of Reckoning" huh?
Hmmmm. 1,000,000 cops in America. Let's say for arguments sake....half of those are clearly justified.

So....1,000,000 cops shot 500 people in which circumstances were questionable (Washington Post says almost all had weapons used against the cop but just for arguments sake) Thats.....what %? 0.05%

So......0.05% of cops are involved in a questionable shooting.
And.....0.1% are involved in ALLEGED misconduct.

Hmmmm. Sounds like a tiny...nearly immeasurable problem that needs to be handled on the local level.

Apparently you did not read where it said it was not an accurate figure that it relied upon submission by the agency, they were hamstrung and the figures are skewed, meaning that they had to relie on the press to get headlines for most of these reports.

You said they're mandated by Congress to submit the info. Then said they don't have to submit the info.

That's such a common myth/misconception. All PDs report misoncudct and shooting info to 2 places....the STATE law enforcement agency and the coroner's office (if there is a death).

All anyone has to do....is FOIA all 50 state police agencies. It's easy.

BUT the media plays out this whole "Oh we had to dig so deep for this info" to make.everyone think it was an Indiana Jones style quest. It's not. It's all there. State police have it.

When the FBI director cannot get the info but you can? Wow you should take his job you got my vote.

States passed laws prohibiting this information from being deciminated and collected and is only submitted on voluntary basis only. It was the response to the 1994 act. All I want is them to be able to collect accurate information to be able to see if there is a problem, it was a bypartisan act yet police forces fought it, all because they said it may create violence against them. In which case I would agree to make it a secret report that at least the info could be available to combat police corruption. Any sane person would want that. But as of now no data exists.

What law is that....that forbids the FBI from gathering police shooting info???

Any law like that would be superceded by the Freedom of Information Act.

 

[Dot Com]

The basement dwelling libertarians need to stop being

 

[bucs90]

Apparently you did not read where it said it was not an accurate figure that it relied upon submission by the agency, they were hamstrung and the figures are skewed, meaning that they had to relie on the press to get headlines for most of these reports.

All I am saying is that they need to submit the reports as the congressional act said they should, if it is so low why are they hiding the information? Lack of transparency, and hide behind laws of the states that were made to not report misconduct to an independent source. They can keep it secret and have the FBI monitor it. At least it would be better then the current method which is nothing at all.

That's not true. It all goes to the state police. And the state police can be FOIA requested. Also....they usually just package it for an annual pickup by the local FBI office. I actually used to work a desk in the PD office where the state police audited all ours.


Don't let the media trick everyone with this shit. They lie and dramatize way too much already.

Nope I got this info from fbi director Comey

FBI Mobile Site

So I guess you are calling FBI director Comey a liar. Lol Only some police forces submit only justified homicide to the police.

Here are some highlights from the speech. And when an FBI director and president of the United States says there is a problem I suppose they are both liars using your logic.

"....Not long after riots broke out in Ferguson late last summer, I asked my staff to tell me how many people shot by police were African-American in this country. I wanted to see trends. I wanted to see information. They couldn’t give it to me, and it wasn’t their fault. Demographic data regarding officer-involved shootings is not consistently reported to us through our Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Because reporting is voluntary, our data is incomplete and therefore, in the aggregate, unreliable.

I recently listened to a thoughtful big city police chief express his frustration with that lack of reliable data. He said he didn’t know whether the Ferguson police shot one person a week, one a year, or one a century, and that in the absence of good data, “all we get are ideological thunderbolts, when what we need are ideological agnostics who use information to try to solve problems.” He’s right.

The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but, without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.

How can we address concerns about “use of force,” how can we address concerns about officer-involved shootings if we do not have a reliable grasp on the demographics and circumstances of those incidents? We simply must improve the way we collect and analyze data to see the true nature of what’s happening in all of our communities.

The FBI tracks and publishes the number of “justifiable homicides” reported by police departments. But, again, reporting by police departments is voluntary and not all departments participate. That means we cannot fully track the number of incidents in which force is used by police, or against police, including non-fatal encounters, which are not reported at all."

- See more at: Excessive or reasonable force by police? Research on law enforcement and racial conflict - Journalist's Resource

I read his speech though and he makes some excellent points about the cynicism cops develop on the job. That's absolutely true and it's a battle police departments have yet to figure out: how to send hopeful and enthusiastic young officers into shitholes day after day.....and not have them become cynical of suspects.

Then that is a psychological problem and as I said before they need a standardized test to take yearly. The military does such tests before and after deployments to see if problems exist. If the job is that bad and they become cynical they need to see this data and retrain or remove them from duty to prevent issues. But they do not have to take yearly psychological tests. This could solve some major issues.

Hey....I think we can both agree to that! However....officers would need PTSD protection for a medical retirement if they develop it. As of now....very very few police agencies will provide medical retirement for PTSD and some cops who see traumatic shit never seek help because they know a diagnosis could end their career at age 40 with no retirement and no backup plan.



Good discussion though. This topic often devolves into name calling. We disagree on some stuff but good dialogue.

 

[TimothysAlaska]

Apparently you did not read where it said it was not an accurate figure that it relied upon submission by the agency, they were hamstrung and the figures are skewed, meaning that they had to relie on the press to get headlines for most of these reports.

All I am saying is that they need to submit the reports as the congressional act said they should, if it is so low why are they hiding the information? Lack of transparency, and hide behind laws of the states that were made to not report misconduct to an independent source. They can keep it secret and have the FBI monitor it. At least it would be better then the current method which is nothing at all.

That's not true. It all goes to the state police. And the state police can be FOIA requested. Also....they usually just package it for an annual pickup by the local FBI office. I actually used to work a desk in the PD office where the state police audited all ours.


Don't let the media trick everyone with this shit. They lie and dramatize way too much already.

Nope I got this info from fbi director Comey

FBI Mobile Site

So I guess you are calling FBI director Comey a liar. Lol Only some police forces submit only justified homicide to the police.

Here are some highlights from the speech. And when an FBI director and president of the United States says there is a problem I suppose they are both liars using your logic.

"....Not long after riots broke out in Ferguson late last summer, I asked my staff to tell me how many people shot by police were African-American in this country. I wanted to see trends. I wanted to see information. They couldn’t give it to me, and it wasn’t their fault. Demographic data regarding officer-involved shootings is not consistently reported to us through our Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Because reporting is voluntary, our data is incomplete and therefore, in the aggregate, unreliable.

I recently listened to a thoughtful big city police chief express his frustration with that lack of reliable data. He said he didn’t know whether the Ferguson police shot one person a week, one a year, or one a century, and that in the absence of good data, “all we get are ideological thunderbolts, when what we need are ideological agnostics who use information to try to solve problems.” He’s right.

The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but, without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.

How can we address concerns about “use of force,” how can we address concerns about officer-involved shootings if we do not have a reliable grasp on the demographics and circumstances of those incidents? We simply must improve the way we collect and analyze data to see the true nature of what’s happening in all of our communities.

The FBI tracks and publishes the number of “justifiable homicides” reported by police departments. But, again, reporting by police departments is voluntary and not all departments participate. That means we cannot fully track the number of incidents in which force is used by police, or against police, including non-fatal encounters, which are not reported at all."

- See more at: Excessive or reasonable force by police? Research on law enforcement and racial conflict - Journalist's Resource

Apparently f

A year of reckoning: Police fatally shoot nearly 1,000

Actually read the article next time. They are mandated by congress to submit misconduct, shooting and criminal activity. They do not and the article even says that no governemrnt agency does the research.

The media did an investigation, which means, yes it will make a few headlines than go back to regular business as usual. Those stats that the article posted are not scientific nor are they accurate.

Cato institute did more extensive research in 2010.

2010 Annual Report

Read it. It is interesting.

Thanks. I read the Cato one. SHOCKING but not how you'd think. Cato said the rate of ALLEGED misconduct by cops is about 997 per 100,000 officers. Or.....roughly 1 in 1000.

So....what % of cops engage in misconduct according to Cato? 0.1%.

Washington Post:
They shot 1000 in 2015. A "Year of Reckoning" huh?
Hmmmm. 1,000,000 cops in America. Let's say for arguments sake....half of those are clearly justified.

So....1,000,000 cops shot 500 people in which circumstances were questionable (Washington Post says almost all had weapons used against the cop but just for arguments sake) Thats.....what %? 0.05%

So......0.05% of cops are involved in a questionable shooting.
And.....0.1% are involved in ALLEGED misconduct.

Hmmmm. Sounds like a tiny...nearly immeasurable problem that needs to be handled on the local level.

Apparently you did not read where it said it was not an accurate figure that it relied upon submission by the agency, they were hamstrung and the figures are skewed, meaning that they had to relie on the press to get headlines for most of these reports.

You said they're mandated by Congress to submit the info. Then said they don't have to submit the info.

That's such a common myth/misconception. All PDs report misoncudct and shooting info to 2 places....the STATE law enforcement agency and the coroner's office (if there is a death).

All anyone has to do....is FOIA all 50 state police agencies. It's easy.

BUT the media plays out this whole "Oh we had to dig so deep for this info" to make.everyone think it was an Indiana Jones style quest. It's not. It's all there. State police have it.

When the FBI director cannot get the info but you can? Wow you should take his job you got my vote.

He can. They just have to FOIA all 50 state police agencies. Now....there is a tradition of bickering between federal, state and local police so I'm not saying it's easy. That's probably why the FBI said it....to pressure the 50 state agencies to do a lot of things in a more friendly manner.

But shootings can't be hidden. Bodies and medical records exist.

As you said....they get stats on police justifiable homicide. Any non justified is just classified as "murder". It's not hidden at all. Just classified under a different UCR code.

All I am saying is that they need to submit the reports as the congressional act said they should, if it is so low why are they hiding the information? Lack of transparency, and hide behind laws of the states that were made to not report misconduct to an independent source. They can keep it secret and have the FBI monitor it. At least it would be better then the current method which is nothing at all.

That's not true. It all goes to the state police. And the state police can be FOIA requested. Also....they usually just package it for an annual pickup by the local FBI office. I actually used to work a desk in the PD office where the state police audited all ours.


Don't let the media trick everyone with this shit. They lie and dramatize way too much already.

Nope I got this info from fbi director Comey

FBI Mobile Site

So I guess you are calling FBI director Comey a liar. Lol Only some police forces submit only justified homicide to the police.

Here are some highlights from the speech. And when an FBI director and president of the United States says there is a problem I suppose they are both liars using your logic.

"....Not long after riots broke out in Ferguson late last summer, I asked my staff to tell me how many people shot by police were African-American in this country. I wanted to see trends. I wanted to see information. They couldn’t give it to me, and it wasn’t their fault. Demographic data regarding officer-involved shootings is not consistently reported to us through our Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Because reporting is voluntary, our data is incomplete and therefore, in the aggregate, unreliable.

I recently listened to a thoughtful big city police chief express his frustration with that lack of reliable data. He said he didn’t know whether the Ferguson police shot one person a week, one a year, or one a century, and that in the absence of good data, “all we get are ideological thunderbolts, when what we need are ideological agnostics who use information to try to solve problems.” He’s right.

The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but, without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.

How can we address concerns about “use of force,” how can we address concerns about officer-involved shootings if we do not have a reliable grasp on the demographics and circumstances of those incidents? We simply must improve the way we collect and analyze data to see the true nature of what’s happening in all of our communities.

The FBI tracks and publishes the number of “justifiable homicides” reported by police departments. But, again, reporting by police departments is voluntary and not all departments participate. That means we cannot fully track the number of incidents in which force is used by police, or against police, including non-fatal encounters, which are not reported at all."

- See more at: Excessive or reasonable force by police? Research on law enforcement and racial conflict - Journalist's Resource

I read his speech though and he makes some excellent points about the cynicism cops develop on the job. That's absolutely true and it's a battle police departments have yet to figure out: how to send hopeful and enthusiastic young officers into shitholes day after day.....and not have them become cynical of suspects.

Then that is a psychological problem and as I said before they need a standardized test to take yearly. The military does such tests before and after deployments to see if problems exist. If the job is that bad and they become cynical they need to see this data and retrain or remove them from duty to prevent issues. But they do not have to take yearly psychological tests. This could solve some major issues.

Hey....I think we can both agree to that! However....officers would need PTSD protection for a medical retirement if they develop it. As of now....very very few police agencies will provide medical retirement for PTSD and some cops who see traumatic shit never seek help because they know a diagnosis could end their career at age 40 with no retirement and no backup plan.



Good discussion though. This topic often devolves into name calling. We disagree on some stuff but good dialogue.

i was going to say the same thing! Lol . I am still going to check the FOIA request though. I like to know about issues and studied this, although it was hard because all the emotionional BS on both sides of the issue I had to root through. But thanks for an interesting conversation. Too bad conversations on this site are not like this more often!

 

[bucs90]

All I am saying is that they need to submit the reports as the congressional act said they should, if it is so low why are they hiding the information? Lack of transparency, and hide behind laws of the states that were made to not report misconduct to an independent source. They can keep it secret and have the FBI monitor it. At least it would be better then the current method which is nothing at all.

That's not true. It all goes to the state police. And the state police can be FOIA requested. Also....they usually just package it for an annual pickup by the local FBI office. I actually used to work a desk in the PD office where the state police audited all ours.


Don't let the media trick everyone with this shit. They lie and dramatize way too much already.

Nope I got this info from fbi director Comey

FBI Mobile Site

So I guess you are calling FBI director Comey a liar. Lol Only some police forces submit only justified homicide to the police.

Here are some highlights from the speech. And when an FBI director and president of the United States says there is a problem I suppose they are both liars using your logic.

"....Not long after riots broke out in Ferguson late last summer, I asked my staff to tell me how many people shot by police were African-American in this country. I wanted to see trends. I wanted to see information. They couldn’t give it to me, and it wasn’t their fault. Demographic data regarding officer-involved shootings is not consistently reported to us through our Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Because reporting is voluntary, our data is incomplete and therefore, in the aggregate, unreliable.

I recently listened to a thoughtful big city police chief express his frustration with that lack of reliable data. He said he didn’t know whether the Ferguson police shot one person a week, one a year, or one a century, and that in the absence of good data, “all we get are ideological thunderbolts, when what we need are ideological agnostics who use information to try to solve problems.” He’s right.

The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but, without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.

How can we address concerns about “use of force,” how can we address concerns about officer-involved shootings if we do not have a reliable grasp on the demographics and circumstances of those incidents? We simply must improve the way we collect and analyze data to see the true nature of what’s happening in all of our communities.

The FBI tracks and publishes the number of “justifiable homicides” reported by police departments. But, again, reporting by police departments is voluntary and not all departments participate. That means we cannot fully track the number of incidents in which force is used by police, or against police, including non-fatal encounters, which are not reported at all."

- See more at: Excessive or reasonable force by police? Research on law enforcement and racial conflict - Journalist's Resource

Apparently f

Thanks. I read the Cato one. SHOCKING but not how you'd think. Cato said the rate of ALLEGED misconduct by cops is about 997 per 100,000 officers. Or.....roughly 1 in 1000.

So....what % of cops engage in misconduct according to Cato? 0.1%.

Washington Post:
They shot 1000 in 2015. A "Year of Reckoning" huh?
Hmmmm. 1,000,000 cops in America. Let's say for arguments sake....half of those are clearly justified.

So....1,000,000 cops shot 500 people in which circumstances were questionable (Washington Post says almost all had weapons used against the cop but just for arguments sake) Thats.....what %? 0.05%

So......0.05% of cops are involved in a questionable shooting.
And.....0.1% are involved in ALLEGED misconduct.

Hmmmm. Sounds like a tiny...nearly immeasurable problem that needs to be handled on the local level.

Apparently you did not read where it said it was not an accurate figure that it relied upon submission by the agency, they were hamstrung and the figures are skewed, meaning that they had to relie on the press to get headlines for most of these reports.

You said they're mandated by Congress to submit the info. Then said they don't have to submit the info.

That's such a common myth/misconception. All PDs report misoncudct and shooting info to 2 places....the STATE law enforcement agency and the coroner's office (if there is a death).

All anyone has to do....is FOIA all 50 state police agencies. It's easy.

BUT the media plays out this whole "Oh we had to dig so deep for this info" to make.everyone think it was an Indiana Jones style quest. It's not. It's all there. State police have it.

When the FBI director cannot get the info but you can? Wow you should take his job you got my vote.

He can. They just have to FOIA all 50 state police agencies. Now....there is a tradition of bickering between federal, state and local police so I'm not saying it's easy. That's probably why the FBI said it....to pressure the 50 state agencies to do a lot of things in a more friendly manner.

But shootings can't be hidden. Bodies and medical records exist.

As you said....they get stats on police justifiable homicide. Any non justified is just classified as "murder". It's not hidden at all. Just classified under a different UCR code.

That's not true. It all goes to the state police. And the state police can be FOIA requested. Also....they usually just package it for an annual pickup by the local FBI office. I actually used to work a desk in the PD office where the state police audited all ours.


Don't let the media trick everyone with this shit. They lie and dramatize way too much already.

Nope I got this info from fbi director Comey

FBI Mobile Site

So I guess you are calling FBI director Comey a liar. Lol Only some police forces submit only justified homicide to the police.

Here are some highlights from the speech. And when an FBI director and president of the United States says there is a problem I suppose they are both liars using your logic.

"....Not long after riots broke out in Ferguson late last summer, I asked my staff to tell me how many people shot by police were African-American in this country. I wanted to see trends. I wanted to see information. They couldn’t give it to me, and it wasn’t their fault. Demographic data regarding officer-involved shootings is not consistently reported to us through our Uniform Crime Reporting Program. Because reporting is voluntary, our data is incomplete and therefore, in the aggregate, unreliable.

I recently listened to a thoughtful big city police chief express his frustration with that lack of reliable data. He said he didn’t know whether the Ferguson police shot one person a week, one a year, or one a century, and that in the absence of good data, “all we get are ideological thunderbolts, when what we need are ideological agnostics who use information to try to solve problems.” He’s right.

The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but, without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.

How can we address concerns about “use of force,” how can we address concerns about officer-involved shootings if we do not have a reliable grasp on the demographics and circumstances of those incidents? We simply must improve the way we collect and analyze data to see the true nature of what’s happening in all of our communities.

The FBI tracks and publishes the number of “justifiable homicides” reported by police departments. But, again, reporting by police departments is voluntary and not all departments participate. That means we cannot fully track the number of incidents in which force is used by police, or against police, including non-fatal encounters, which are not reported at all."

- See more at: Excessive or reasonable force by police? Research on law enforcement and racial conflict - Journalist's Resource

I read his speech though and he makes some excellent points about the cynicism cops develop on the job. That's absolutely true and it's a battle police departments have yet to figure out: how to send hopeful and enthusiastic young officers into shitholes day after day.....and not have them become cynical of suspects.

Then that is a psychological problem and as I said before they need a standardized test to take yearly. The military does such tests before and after deployments to see if problems exist. If the job is that bad and they become cynical they need to see this data and retrain or remove them from duty to prevent issues. But they do not have to take yearly psychological tests. This could solve some major issues.

Hey....I think we can both agree to that! However....officers would need PTSD protection for a medical retirement if they develop it. As of now....very very few police agencies will provide medical retirement for PTSD and some cops who see traumatic shit never seek help because they know a diagnosis could end their career at age 40 with no retirement and no backup plan.



Good discussion though. This topic often devolves into name calling. We disagree on some stuff but good dialogue.

i was going to say the same thing! Lol . I am still going to check the FOIA request though. I like to know about issues and studied this, although it was hard because all the emotionional BS on both sides of the issue I had to root through. But thanks for an interesting conversation. Too bad conversations on this site are not like this more often!

Same to you. If you wanna dialogue more about any of these topics PM me or just do a thread. I've NEVER opposed people having honest and civil questions about police actions. In fact....it was a fundamental issue in the founding of this nation (along with taxation) when the colonists absolutely despised the brutality of the British army red coats...who were the police back then.

 

[paulitician]

Police simply need to be held accountable like the rest of us would when they break the laws and when they abuse their positions of power. It's not really that hard. There is a reason why trust in law enforcement is at a 20 year old.

among yourself and paulitician

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. They should be treated just like average Citizens are. They are not a special protected class. I know folks like you have forgotten, but they do actually work for the Citizens. It's not the other way around.

You Authority-Worshippers really do need to reconsider your worship of the Police. I mean, your country now ranks #1 in the world for locking Citizens up per capita. It's also right up there in Police violence against Citizens.

 

[WildBillKelsoe]

The militarization of police departments we have seen over the past couple of decades is objectionable in many cases and means, like the Arizonian who got shot dead in his own home due to being the target of a SWAT team who was given a wrong address. The SWAT team did a military style assault, yelling they were the police while the targeted family was asleep. This is justifiably criticized.

Police that routinely harass blacks for being in a white area are also wrong and need retraining. Unless a perp description says the perp was a black guy, blacks should not be profiled. And yet it still goes on.

Those are legit criticisms, and it would be productive for activists to target these policies, but not attacking the PDs across the nation as being 100% institutional racism.

That was human error. The equipment they were using didn't have anything to do with it.

 

[JimBowie1958]

That was human error. The equipment they were using didn't have anything to do with it.

The error is in approaching civilian crime as though the criminals are war enemies and attacking them like one would do in war time.

 

[WildBillKelsoe]

That was human error. The equipment they were using didn't have anything to do with it.

The error is in approaching civilian crime as though the criminals are war enemies and attacking them like one would do in war time.

They could have raised the guy with .38 specials and the error would have been the same.

 

[JimBowie1958]

They could have raised the guy with .38 specials and the error would have been the same.

They could execute military tactics with civilian weapons.

I am not objecting to the equipment so much as to the military tactics.

 

[jc456]

The militarization of police departments we have seen over the past couple of decades is objectionable in many cases and means, like the Arizonian who got shot dead in his own home due to being the target of a SWAT team who was given a wrong address. The SWAT team did a military style assault, yelling they were the police while the targeted family was asleep. This is justifiably criticized.

Police that routinely harass blacks for being in a white area are also wrong and need retraining. Unless a perp description says the perp was a black guy, blacks should not be profiled. And yet it still goes on.

Those are legit criticisms, and it would be productive for activists to target these policies, but not attacking the PDs across the nation as being 100% institutional racism.

dude,

I'm full out if there have been incidents in an all white neighborhood and there are blacks walking around without permits for solicitation, then why would the black be there? See, I don't get that philosophy at all, why can't the police ask them why they are there. Why is that offensive. Can't they understand the scenario?

I do know one thing, you will not see a white walking around in an all black neighborhood outside delivering service in the area, maybe. And again, they'd have a license to do that.

And if they were merely passing through and the cop offered the person a lift, why would that be offensive? I'm sorry, but let's fight the real battle black on black crime and stop with the hypothetical of blacks being profiled in white neighborhoods. It doesn't happen as you stated.

 

[WildBillKelsoe]

They could have raised the guy with .38 specials and the error would have been the same.

They could execute military tactics with civilian weapons.

I am not objecting to the equipment so much as to the military tactics.

The tactics are employed for the safety of the officers, for one. Second, the tactics don't change the error in raiding the wrong suspect.

 

[bucs90]

They could have raised the guy with .38 specials and the error would have been the same.

They could execute military tactics with civilian weapons.

I am not objecting to the equipment so much as to the military tactics.

Military tactics? Human conflict is the same. An armed guy in a house in LA or Baghdad....is still an armed human in a structure. All the "military" tactics are....are the best practices using angles and movement to raise the chances a person survives the encounter. A cop taking down a violent felon with an gun doesn't want to die any more than a solider in Iraq. So...both use time tested tactics for surviving that encounter. Cops aren't obligated to die.

And...in fact...a lot of the small unit "military tactics" actually came from police....the early 1900s Shanghai SWAT team had incredibly effective tactics that were studied by some famous military trainers who adopted them for use by British and American special forces.

So many of these "military tactics".....are actually tactics that Chinese police created and the military copied.

The WorldÕs First SWAT Team

 

[jc456]

He's right.

There is a difference is having an honest discussion regarding police....including criticizing some things....versus blanket smearing of cops and using phrases such as "oink oink bang bang" or roasting a pig with a cop hat on it.

The % of cops who end up in questionable shootings is statistically about 0.000005%.

So Trump is right.

We can and should discuss those 0.000005% as ISOLATED from the 99.999995% of other cops. Without burning cities preferably.

And where do you get your stats from? According to the FBI director their is no stats on police misconduct. The violent crime control and law enforcement act passed by congress in 1994 was supposed to keep track of police misconduct. It had full bipartisan support. The act was never implemented as police unions began to unify and pass state laws prohibiting the data from being recorded. They only give information on a voluntary basis, which means only time video is taken that they do not control and it hits the media.

So since they control the data and do not relinquish it, nobody knows how bad or how far this problem is or even if there is a problem. The videos that have come to light have been troubling and it seems when the police control the video it takes years to release it if the officer looks bad, but if it is video that shows the officer in a good light the police release it within hours and video or information showing the perpetrator as being a law breaker even it has nothing to do wih the case at hand.

The solution would enforce the congressional act with an agency that is separate from the chain of command of the police. If police see a pattern of aggression within their ranks by certain officers, yet do not evaluate or suspend that officer before an incident happens, then they are culpable and negligent as officers.

My points are there are no stats because police each district keeps its own records and it is not release able to the public. so you cannot possibly know that they are all bad or all good. It gives the impression of corruption, with no oversight.

Each department has an internal affairs department that tracks their own stats independently, dude.

Yes as I stated only if it is brought to the internal affairs. Police culture needs to change, they need a standardized psychological test to become police officers. Like I said if they let things go with officers that show patterns of aggression, then they are not good police officers. And internal affairs comes in only when an incident happens, way too late to save a citizen from harm. And they are not following a congressional act that was supposed to record and collect data. Police are not following the law.

I am not sure how you can argue the point when they themselves are negligent.

why is it offensive to ask that the blacks obey authority when they are approached? What is it that goes off in their head that says let's start a riot right here right now when approached? I'm sorry, it isn't that way in most other parts of society.

 

[Dot Com]

Police simply need to be held accountable like the rest of us would when they break the laws and when they abuse their positions of power. It's not really that hard. There is a reason why trust in law enforcement is at a 20 year old.

among yourself and paulitician

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. They should be treated just like average Citizens are. They are not a special protected class. I know folks like you have forgotten, but they do actually work for the Citizens. It's not the other way around.

You Authority-Worshippers really do need to reconsider your worship of the Police. I mean, your country now ranks #1 in the world for locking Citizens up per capita. It's also right up there in Police violence against Citizens.

the resident, basement-dwelling libertarian weighs-in. "authority worshippers" lol

BTW- you move off-the-grid yet kid?

OH!!! and newsflash!!! Police dont lock people up, judges and juries do. Have you even read the Consitution?

 

[paulitician]

Police simply need to be held accountable like the rest of us would when they break the laws and when they abuse their positions of power. It's not really that hard. There is a reason why trust in law enforcement is at a 20 year old.

among yourself and paulitician

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. They should be treated just like average Citizens are. They are not a special protected class. I know folks like you have forgotten, but they do actually work for the Citizens. It's not the other way around.

You Authority-Worshippers really do need to reconsider your worship of the Police. I mean, your country now ranks #1 in the world for locking Citizens up per capita. It's also right up there in Police violence against Citizens.

the resident, basement-dwelling libertarian weighs-in. "authority worshippers" lol

BTW- you move off-the-grid yet kid?

OH!!! and newsflash!!! Police dont lock people up, judges and juries do. Have you even read the Consitution?

What was stated earlier was perfectly reasonable. Police should be arrested and prosecuted for their crimes just as any other average Citizen would be. They are not above the law. I know that shocks you Authority-Worshippers, but they really aren't above the law. You really should check out the ugly state of our domestic Police. It's become one of the most violent oppressive police forces on earth.

 

[jc456]

Police simply need to be held accountable like the rest of us would when they break the laws and when they abuse their positions of power. It's not really that hard. There is a reason why trust in law enforcement is at a 20 year old.

among yourself and paulitician

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. They should be treated just like average Citizens are. They are not a special protected class. I know folks like you have forgotten, but they do actually work for the Citizens. It's not the other way around.

You Authority-Worshippers really do need to reconsider your worship of the Police. I mean, your country now ranks #1 in the world for locking Citizens up per capita. It's also right up there in Police violence against Citizens.

the resident, basement-dwelling libertarian weighs-in. "authority worshippers" lol

BTW- you move off-the-grid yet kid?

OH!!! and newsflash!!! Police dont lock people up, judges and juries do. Have you even read the Consitution?

not to be an ass to be an ass, but Police do lock up criminals. They, Police, lock them in a holding cell until they get in front of the judge.

 

[jc456]

Police simply need to be held accountable like the rest of us would when they break the laws and when they abuse their positions of power. It's not really that hard. There is a reason why trust in law enforcement is at a 20 year old.

among yourself and paulitician

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. They should be treated just like average Citizens are. They are not a special protected class. I know folks like you have forgotten, but they do actually work for the Citizens. It's not the other way around.

You Authority-Worshippers really do need to reconsider your worship of the Police. I mean, your country now ranks #1 in the world for locking Citizens up per capita. It's also right up there in Police violence against Citizens.

the resident, basement-dwelling libertarian weighs-in. "authority worshippers" lol

BTW- you move off-the-grid yet kid?

OH!!! and newsflash!!! Police dont lock people up, judges and juries do. Have you even read the Consitution?

What was stated earlier was perfectly reasonable. Police should be arrested and prosecuted for their crimes just as any other average Citizen would be. They are not above the law. I know that shocks you Authority-Worshippers, but they really aren't above the law. You really should check out the ugly state of our domestic Police. It's become one of the most violent oppressive police forces on earth.

but I will give them the benefit of what they do as far as voluntarily walking into gun fights, and that is not what an average citizen does. So threat level has to be used when hearing a case for a cop. has to be.