Trump supporters: How are you punishing the Establishment?

[Kondor3]

There is Liberalism, executed well, which is not what we have in this country...

There is Conservatism, executed well, which is not what we have in this country...

Sentiments such as the one apocryphally attributed to Winnie are served-up as an Ideal to play from, not the actual conditions on-the-ground, du jour, or yesterday...

No, guy, the problem is, Conservatism has become playing on your fears to get you to vote against your economic interests. If you aren't rich, there's nothing in conservatism for you. ...

Given that I voted for Bush 41, once, then Bill Clinton, twice, then George Bush, twice, then Barack Obama, twice, then Bernie Sanders in the recent Illinois Primary...

I'd say that I have a pretty fair track record of Voting Diversity, and can safely sidestep such an allegation...

...Liberalism is in my opinion, unsustainable if you don't have a solid middle class support it. It worked just fine (the 1950's and 1960's) when we did.

Liberalism is unsustainable because it inevitably goes too far and pushes one or two agenda items too many down America's throat and is then sidelined for a while...

 

[Mac1958]

I think a lot of people are reading a lot of stuff into what Trump says that just isn't there.

I think all he does is babble at a shallow level - that may be all his intellectual capacity allows - and people run with it.

That's what makes him such an easy target. Just turn on the camera and let him bury himself. And the GOP.
.

In the final analysis, Trump is an Empty Suit, of the worst sort...

I like some of what he said about flushing-out Illegal Aliens, although I think his idea of a Wall is a stupid way to keep it from happening again...

I like some of what he said about banning immigration from Muslim-dominated countries, although I think his explicit and public references to Islam are impolitic...

I love some of what he said about forcing manufacturing jobs back on-shore using tariffs, etc., and spanking companies that ship jobs overseas or fail to bring them back...

But he lacks the finesse to accomplish those objectives in an American political context...

And his other characteristics and attributes, and the risk to Nation and People posed by same, render him "not worth the cost{" or "not worth the risk" in my mind...

I think of him, beneath the bravado and bluster and suits, as a guy in a bar.

That guy takes a passing interest in stuff, he'll offer up an opinion without really investigating it, and he'll change it as he gets more information. Maybe. Or maybe he'll just argue it because he doesn't want to give in. If a couple of other similar guys in the bar agree with him, he just gets emboldened and doubles down.

No intellectual curiosity, little analytical thought, he just burps stuff out.

That's fine for the guy in the bar, but not for this.
.

 

[JoeB131]

But he lacks the finesse to accomplish those objectives in an American political context...

And his other characteristics and attributes, and the risk to Nation and People posed by same, render him "not worth the cost{" or "not worth the risk" in my mind...

That's actually kind of... thoughtful.

 

[JoeB131]

Given that I voted for Bush 41, once, then Bill Clinton, twice, then George Bush, twice, then Barack Obama, twice, then Bernie Sanders in the recent Illinois Primary...

I'd say that I have a pretty fair track record of Voting Diversity, and can safely sidestep such an allegation...

Yeah, except you can't produce those 2012 posts for Obama... so not so much.

 

[Kondor3]

But he lacks the finesse to accomplish those objectives in an American political context...

And his other characteristics and attributes, and the risk to Nation and People posed by same, render him "not worth the cost{" or "not worth the risk" in my mind...

That's actually kind of... thoughtful.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day, eh?

 

[Mertex]

Still working on trying to figure this out, and I may or may not ever get there. Here's one that just popped into my little brain:

For 2016, the Republican ticket is not going to be about conservatism vs. liberalism, it's going to be about anti-establishment vs. both The GOP Establishment AND liberalism. Okay. (But let me know if I'm wrong there)

Could a Trump supporter explain how running an authoritarian non-conservative is punishing the GOP Establishment? What is the end goal here? Do you want to end up with a conservative GOP? If so, how do you get there from here?
.

They would like to see the country go down in flames because the "establishment" politicians didn't do what they wanted them to do. They don't understand how government works and they're cutting their noses to spite their face. It's a good thing there are more "sane" people who will either not vote for him or vote for the Libertarian or maybe write a name in....but Trumpf supporters hate Hillary more than they love the country and don't care that Trumpf is an idiot who doesn't even know which way is up, and they will continue to make excuses for his racism, ineptness and ignorance.

 

[Kondor3]

Given that I voted for Bush 41, once, then Bill Clinton, twice, then George Bush, twice, then Barack Obama, twice, then Bernie Sanders in the recent Illinois Primary...

I'd say that I have a pretty fair track record of Voting Diversity, and can safely sidestep such an allegation...

Yeah, except you can't produce those 2012 posts for Obama... so not so much.

Given that I held my nose when voting for Obama, both times, there's not much pro-Obama post content to dredge up; another Lesser-of-Two-Evils choice.

Your ability or willingness to believe my claim to have voted for Obama, twice, is irrelevant to its truthfulness.

 

[Mac1958]

Still working on trying to figure this out, and I may or may not ever get there. Here's one that just popped into my little brain:

For 2016, the Republican ticket is not going to be about conservatism vs. liberalism, it's going to be about anti-establishment vs. both The GOP Establishment AND liberalism. Okay. (But let me know if I'm wrong there)

Could a Trump supporter explain how running an authoritarian non-conservative is punishing the GOP Establishment? What is the end goal here? Do you want to end up with a conservative GOP? If so, how do you get there from here?
.

They would like to see the country go down in flames because the "establishment" politicians didn't do what they wanted them to do. They don't understand how government works and they're cutting their noses to spite their face. It's a good thing there are more "sane" people who will either not vote for him or vote for the Libertarian or maybe write a name in....but Trumpf supporters hate Hillary more than they love the country and don't care that Trumpf is an idiot who doesn't even know which way is up, and they will continue to make excuses for his racism, ineptness and ignorance.

They've been badly, badly misled.
.

 

[Boss]

Guy, you are deluding yourself. Romney and McCain got just as many conservative votes as George W. Stupid did when he got close enough to the election to steal it.

And there will be a lot of conservatives who vote for Trump over Hillary. But Conservatives were not who won the nomination for Trump. Just as Conservatives didn't win the nomination for Romney or McCain.

 

[Boss]

GUy, I was a Republican from 1980 to 2008, before the Religious Crazies took over the party.... It offends me we are still talking about Bronze Age Superstitions in the 21st fucking century. But that wasn't my point.

Pay close attention kiddies... this could happen to YOU!

One day, while you're minding your own business, being a Republican who believes that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights... Some politician might mention God one too many times and you'll suddenly go stark raving cuckoo Liberal!

 

[JoeB131]

And there will be a lot of conservatives who vote for Trump over Hillary. But Conservatives were not who won the nomination for Trump. Just as Conservatives didn't win the nomination for Romney or McCain.

Conservative is a misused term... so I don't worry about it. If you ask most Trump supporters ifthey consider themselves conservative, they'd say yes.

 

[JoeB131]

Pay close attention kiddies... this could happen to YOU!

One day, while you're minding your own business, being a Republican who believes that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights... Some politician might mention God one too many times and you'll suddenly go stark raving cuckoo Liberal!

But you see, I never believed that after 1983. I stopped believing in Sky Fairies when my mom prayed for her cancer to get better... and it didn't.

It's not just that you believe in Sky Fairies, but it's that you want to do crazy shit in order to please your imaginary friend in the sky. You know, like put an adjective in front of the word "Rape" to justify making a woman have her rapist's baby.

Or stealing an election for a Clinically retarded Bush scion because he done be right with Jesus.

The thing is, you all look at 2008, when George W. Stupid fucked up all our lives, and you don' think you did anything wrong. Because he was right with Jesus and didn't have sex with interns.

 

[Boss]

Pay close attention kiddies... this could happen to YOU!

One day, while you're minding your own business, being a Republican who believes that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights... Some politician might mention God one too many times and you'll suddenly go stark raving cuckoo Liberal!

But you see, I never believed that after 1983. I stopped believing in Sky Fairies when my mom prayed for her cancer to get better... and it didn't.

It's not just that you believe in Sky Fairies, but it's that you want to do crazy shit in order to please your imaginary friend in the sky. You know, like put an adjective in front of the word "Rape" to justify making a woman have her rapist's baby.

Or stealing an election for a Clinically retarded Bush scion because he done be right with Jesus.

The thing is, you all look at 2008, when George W. Stupid fucked up all our lives, and you don' think you did anything wrong. Because he was right with Jesus and didn't have sex with interns.

Yes...makes us want to do crazy shit... like balancing the federal budget and paying down our massive debt, getting federal government out of our way so we can run our businesses and prosper, expecting people to be responsible for themselves and not depend on handouts from the taxpayers, actually FIXING the health care, education and social security systems so they work efficiently and remain solvent in the future.... oh, and having the basic dignity as humans to respect the most precious life of all.

Yeah, we're just fucking INSANE!

 

[JoeB131]

Yes...makes us want to do crazy shit... like balancing the federal budget and paying down our massive debt,

Okay, but the thing was, in 2000, Bill Clinton had done EXACTLY that. He balanced the budget and was paying down the debt. Then George W. Stupid, who was right with Jesus, gave huge tax cuts to bilionaires and put a war on a Credit Card.

getting federal government out of our way so we can run our businesses and prosper,

Except Bill Clinton had businesses prospering like they never had before in the 1990's. Then George W. Stupid, who was right with Jesus, came along and gave us two recessions and a war.

expecting people to be responsible for themselves and not depend on handouts from the taxpayers,

You see, this is where you are confused. Mostpeople getting hand outs as you say, have jobs. Just not jobs that pay well enough to put food on the table and a roof over their heads.

actually FIXING the health care, education and social security systems so they work efficiently and remain solvent in the future....

Except you guys were the ones who broke them to start with. Again, George W. Stupid was the guy who decided medicare would pay for medicines, but wouldn't negotiate with the drug companies, making Medicare Part D a boondoggle.

oh, and having the basic dignity as humans to respect the most precious life of all.

Right, you guys love you some fetuses until the Fourth Trimester. Then you can't wait to yank the food out of it's mouth.

Yeah, we're just fucking INSANE!

yes, you are fucking insane if you think that you didn't cause most or all of the problems you complain about.

 

[Boss]

Okay, but the thing was, in 2000, Bill Clinton had done EXACTLY that. He balanced the budget and was paying down the debt. Then George W. Stupid, who was right with Jesus, gave huge tax cuts to bilionaires and put a war on a Credit Card.

Bill Clinton did that because of the Republican Revolution and Newt Gingrich insisting that he do it. And the actual budget was never balanced, it was smoke and mirrors devised by counting the Social Security Trust Fund in with the General Budget.

And George W. Bush was not a fiscal conservative... neither was his father.

Except you guys were the ones who broke them to start with.

Well, no we didn't. The systemic problems are 100% the result of layers of liberal left-wing mandates and regulations. Government interfering in free markets where it had no business interfering.

 

[Correll]

I think a lot of people are reading a lot of stuff into what Trump says that just isn't there.

I think all he does is babble at a shallow level - that may be all his intellectual capacity allows - and people run with it.

That's what makes him such an easy target. Just turn on the camera and let him bury himself. And the GOP.
.

His rhetoric is about persuasion, not policy.

But it is at a very high level of skill and message.

Just not policy detail.


DO you believe that he is a nationalist?

 

[Correll]

I think a lot of people are reading a lot of stuff into what Trump says that just isn't there.

I think all he does is babble at a shallow level - that may be all his intellectual capacity allows - and people run with it.

That's what makes him such an easy target. Just turn on the camera and let him bury himself. And the GOP.
.

In the final analysis, Trump is an Empty Suit, of the worst sort...

I like some of what he said about flushing-out Illegal Aliens, although I think his idea of a Wall is a stupid way to keep it from happening again...

I like some of what he said about banning immigration from Muslim-dominated countries, although I think his explicit and public references to Islam are impolitic...

I love some of what he said about forcing manufacturing jobs back on-shore using tariffs, etc., and spanking companies that ship jobs overseas or fail to bring them back...

But he lacks the finesse to accomplish those objectives in an American political context...

And his other characteristics and attributes, and the risk to Nation and People posed by same, render him "not worth the cost" or "not worth the risk" in my mind...

You like some of what he said, but doubt that he can accomplish them?

ON the other hand, your alternatives, will be working exactly AGAINST the issues you said you liked.

YOu like the idea of deportation?

Hillary will be working to give them Amnesty AND to get more in.

You like the idea of a ban on Muslim immigration but worry that Trump was "impolitic"?

Hillay will throw open the doors.

YOu like his ideas about forcing manufacturing jobs back, but doubt he can do it?

Hillary will fight to continue shipping jobs overseas.



SOunds like your choice is between a maybe you something you want and a certainty you DON'T.

 

[Mac1958]

DO you believe that he is a nationalist?

The various "-ists" are thrown around so often I'm a little cautious to use them. Here's Dictionary.com's definition:

=======
noun
1.
a person devoted to nationalism.
2.
(initial capital letter) a member of a political group advocating or fighting for national independence, a strong national government, etc.
adjective
3.
Also, nationalistic. of, relating to, or promoting nationalism :
the beginnings of a nationalist movement.
4.
(initial capital letter) of, relating to, or noting a political group advocating or fighting for national independence, a strong national government, etc.
========

Yeah, I guess by that definition I'd say he is.
.

 

[Correll]

I think a lot of people are reading a lot of stuff into what Trump says that just isn't there.

I think all he does is babble at a shallow level - that may be all his intellectual capacity allows - and people run with it.

That's what makes him such an easy target. Just turn on the camera and let him bury himself. And the GOP.
.

In the final analysis, Trump is an Empty Suit, of the worst sort...

I like some of what he said about flushing-out Illegal Aliens, although I think his idea of a Wall is a stupid way to keep it from happening again...

I like some of what he said about banning immigration from Muslim-dominated countries, although I think his explicit and public references to Islam are impolitic...

I love some of what he said about forcing manufacturing jobs back on-shore using tariffs, etc., and spanking companies that ship jobs overseas or fail to bring them back...

But he lacks the finesse to accomplish those objectives in an American political context...

And his other characteristics and attributes, and the risk to Nation and People posed by same, render him "not worth the cost{" or "not worth the risk" in my mind...

I think of him, beneath the bravado and bluster and suits, as a guy in a bar.

That guy takes a passing interest in stuff, he'll offer up an opinion without really investigating it, and he'll change it as he gets more information. Maybe. Or maybe he'll just argue it because he doesn't want to give in. If a couple of other similar guys in the bar agree with him, he just gets emboldened and doubles down.

No intellectual curiosity, little analytical thought, he just burps stuff out.

That's fine for the guy in the bar, but not for this.
.

That is the feel his wants to give. That is part of his persuasion to the Average Guy on the Street.

But, he is more like a CEO who is applying for a job.

His analytical thought is about the job interview. And it's going full bore.

He has some general direction plans for what to do if he gets the jobs, but details waits until he gets in there.

And it is better than any of the alternatives.

And HIllary has decided to match him by doing him one WORSE.

She is going for Panic Mongering as her primary message.

 

[Correll]

DO you believe that he is a nationalist?

The various "-ists" are thrown around so often I'm a little cautious to use them. Here's Dictionary.com's definition:

=======
noun
1.
a person devoted to nationalism.
2.
(initial capital letter) a member of a political group advocating or fighting for national independence, a strong national government, etc.
adjective
3.
Also, nationalistic. of, relating to, or promoting nationalism :
the beginnings of a nationalist movement.
4.
(initial capital letter) of, relating to, or noting a political group advocating or fighting for national independence, a strong national government, etc.
========

Yeah, I guess by that definition I'd say he is.


.

Then his message of America First is not just bullshit.

It tells US one of his general governing principles.


And it's one that is better than the alternatives who do NOT support that.