Turkish PM Erdogan : Don't let Israel meddle in Egypt

[Ropey]

I don't argue their guilt.

But Turkey is arguing their guilt. Then they move to meddle in Israeli politics. That's why I post.

I only argue the times they lived in, and what kind of place it was. Even my time there in the 1990s, it was evident that it was in many ways still a very backward country. I can't imagine what it was like in 1915. But I know that the U.S. and Britain were using mustard gas, among other horrors, so how much more advanced were we, morally speaking?

You are simply minimizing their acts of relinquishing responsibility for their guilt in systematically killing a people by attempting to attach it to other acts.

Turkey is saying it was not systematic. That it was simply a response to aggression and so they need not apologize. So I disagree with how Turkey is relinquishing the responsibility that you have said you know they have.

I then disagree with conflating that event with other horrors. I understand you seek to minimize the effect Synth for you stated that Turkey has your support but this just complicates the event.

If you see Turkey's complicity in the death, destruction and removal of 99% of the ENTIRE ARMENIAN population of the anatolian Turkey, then so should Turkey.

Genocide was not a sign of the times in the 1920's and the 20's is the modern times. It was a sign of the times in the Nazi era. It was the sign of the times in the Turkish movement. It was a sign of the times in Darfur. Rwanda.

Not the dates, not the times. The groups of people who did these acts in modern times with more to possibly come.

It is a sign of barbarity, not the times.

Turkey was simply sweeping the country they were in the process of creating free of Armenians.

 

[Kalam]

No, just what you think about the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians.

I'm a bit tired of hearing people complain about this century-old incident as if Enver Pasha himself rose from the grave and chopped their parents' heads off. I'm equally unsympathetic toward people who get upset whenever someone uses the term "genocide" to describe what took place.

I'm sure that whatever happened was very unfortunate but my sympathies for genocide victims are generally reserved who people who are actually being murdered. If it was going on to day I'd

 

[Ropey]

No, just what you think about the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians.

I'm a bit tired of hearing people complain about this century-old incident as if Enver Pasha himself rose from the grave and chopped their parents' heads off. I'm equally unsympathetic toward people who get upset whenever someone uses the term "genocide" to describe what took place.

I'm sure that whatever happened was very unfortunate but my sympathies for genocide victims are generally reserved who people who are actually being murdered. If it was going on to day I'd

Then you need rest.

Darfur is simply taking all the black pieces on the chessboard and replacing them with red pieces. And it is happening now.

It's really that simple when a people are being killed off.

@ Synth

In the end, the question is always the same.

Where did they go then? Where did the populations go?

 

[Synthaholic]

I don't argue their guilt.

But Turkey is arguing their guilt. Then they move to meddle in Israeli politics. That's why I post.

I only argue the times they lived in, and what kind of place it was. Even my time there in the 1990s, it was evident that it was in many ways still a very backward country. I can't imagine what it was like in 1915. But I know that the U.S. and Britain were using mustard gas, among other horrors, so how much more advanced were we, morally speaking?

You are simply minimizing their acts of relinquishing responsibility for their guilt in systematically killing a people by attempting to attach it to other acts.

Turkey is saying it was not systematic. That it was simply a response to aggression and so they need not apologize. So I disagree with how Turkey is relinquishing the responsibility that you have said you know they have.

If they are still saying that, even since Akçam's investigative journalism, then that is wrong - it was systematic. I have not followed the government position since Erdogan became PM.

But you must please stop conflating Turkey with the Ottoman Empire - they are not interchangeable, nor are their responsibilities. The Republic of Turkey has no responsibility for Ottoman actions under Sultan rule. So it makes it difficult to respond to some of your statements without constant clarification.

I then disagree with conflating that event with other horrors. I understand you seek to minimize the effect Synth for you stated that Turkey has your support but this just complicates the event.

I am not. I am merely pointing out that if the moral leader of the world was engaging in chemical warfare during this time period, then we must use a graduated scale to judge a culture and society that was comparatively primitive. IOW, it's hard to blame savages for being savages.

If you see Turkey's complicity in the death, destruction and removal of 99% of the ENTIRE ARMENIAN population of the anatolian Turkey, then so should Turkey.

REWRITE: "If you see the Ottomans' complicity in the death, destruction and removal of 99% of the ENTIRE ARMENIAN population of the Anatolian Turkey, then so should Turkey."

I'm sure that the Turks who are exposed to the evidence see their recent ancestor's actions very clearly. National pride keeps them from admitting it. They should admit it. But it would be improper for the government to apologize for it.

Genocide was not a sign of the times in the 1920's and the 20's is the modern times. It was a sign of the times in the Nazi era. It was the sign of the times in the Turkish movement. It was a sign of the times in Darfur. Rwanda.

This doesn't make sense.

If you are saying that whenever genocide occurs it is a sign of the times, I disagree. And in the 20th century, only Clinton intervened in an attempted genocide, in Bosnia. Although he did not intervene in Rwanda. And Bush didn't intervene in Darfur. And nobody intervened in the 35 year brutal occupation of Korea by Japan, and nobody intervened in what's now known as Turkey. And nobody intervened when Pol Pot was murdering two million Cambodians. So I am unmoved by the selective outrage against Turks for something that happened a century ago.

Not the dates, not the times. The groups of people who did these acts in modern times with more to possibly come.

It is a sign of barbarity, not the times.

Turkey was simply sweeping the country they were in the process of creating free of Armenians.

They were at war with Armenia, while their empire was crumbling.

 

[Ropey]

I don't argue their guilt.

But Turkey is arguing their guilt. Then they move to meddle in Israeli politics. That's why I post.

You are simply minimizing their acts of relinquishing responsibility for their guilt in systematically killing a people by attempting to attach it to other acts.

Turkey is saying it was not systematic. That it was simply a response to aggression and so they need not apologize. So I disagree with how Turkey is relinquishing the responsibility that you have said you know they have.

If they are still saying that, even since Akçam's investigative journalism, then that is wrong - it was systematic. I have not followed the government position since Erdogan became PM.

But you must please stop conflating Turkey with the Ottoman Empire - they are not interchangeable, nor are their responsibilities. The Republic of Turkey has no responsibility for Ottoman actions under Sultan rule. So it makes it difficult to respond to some of your statements without constant clarification.

I am not. I am merely pointing out that if the moral leader of the world was engaging in chemical warfare during this time period, then we must use a graduated scale to judge a culture and society that was comparatively primitive. IOW, it's hard to blame savages for being savages.

REWRITE: "If you see the Ottomans' complicity in the death, destruction and removal of 99% of the ENTIRE ARMENIAN population of the Anatolian Turkey, then so should Turkey."

I'm sure that the Turks who are exposed to the evidence see their recent ancestor's actions very clearly. National pride keeps them from admitting it. They should admit it. But it would be improper for the government to apologize for it.

Genocide was not a sign of the times in the 1920's and the 20's is the modern times. It was a sign of the times in the Nazi era. It was the sign of the times in the Turkish movement. It was a sign of the times in Darfur. Rwanda.

This doesn't make sense.

If you are saying that whenever genocide occurs it is a sign of the times, I disagree. And in the 20th century, only Clinton intervened in an attempted genocide, in Bosnia. Although he did not intervene in Rwanda. And Bush didn't intervene in Darfur. And nobody intervened in the 35 year brutal occupation of Korea by Japan, and nobody intervened in what's now known as Turkey. And nobody intervened when Pol Pot was murdering two million Cambodians. So I am unmoved by the selective outrage against Turks for something that happened a century ago.

Not the dates, not the times. The groups of people who did these acts in modern times with more to possibly come.

It is a sign of barbarity, not the times.

Turkey was simply sweeping the country they were in the process of creating free of Armenians.

They were at war with Armenia, while their empire was crumbling.

As I said, you and I will not meet on facets of this issue. Continue in your minimization and I will continue to demand full responsibility. We agree on onus at least.

If you want to continue though, I have no problem regurgitating my previously mentioned views.

 

[editec]

I don't argue their guilt.

But Turkey is arguing their guilt. Then they move to meddle in Israeli politics. That's why I post.

I only argue the times they lived in, and what kind of place it was. Even my time there in the 1990s, it was evident that it was in many ways still a very backward country. I can't imagine what it was like in 1915. But I know that the U.S. and Britain were using mustard gas, among other horrors, so how much more advanced were we, morally speaking?

You are simply minimizing their acts of relinquishing responsibility for their guilt in systematically killing a people by attempting to attach it to other acts.

Turkey is saying it was not systematic. That it was simply a response to aggression and so they need not apologize. So I disagree with how Turkey is relinquishing the responsibility that you have said you know they have.

I then disagree with conflating that event with other horrors. I understand you seek to minimize the effect Synth for you stated that Turkey has your support but this just complicates the event.

If you see Turkey's complicity in the death, destruction and removal of 99% of the ENTIRE ARMENIAN population of the anatolian Turkey, then so should Turkey.

Genocide was not a sign of the times in the 1920's and the 20's is the modern times. It was a sign of the times in the Nazi era. It was the sign of the times in the Turkish movement. It was a sign of the times in Darfur. Rwanda.

Not the dates, not the times. The groups of people who did these acts in modern times with more to possibly come.

It is a sign of barbarity, not the times.

Turkey was simply sweeping the country they were in the process of creating free of Armenians.

\

Interesting theory.

One of my volunteers is a Turkish-Armenain college student.

He might disagree with your theory.

He's getting college credits from a Turkish university to translate books for us into Armenian.

 

[Ropey]

I don't argue their guilt.

But Turkey is arguing their guilt. Then they move to meddle in Israeli politics. That's why I post.

I only argue the times they lived in, and what kind of place it was. Even my time there in the 1990s, it was evident that it was in many ways still a very backward country. I can't imagine what it was like in 1915. But I know that the U.S. and Britain were using mustard gas, among other horrors, so how much more advanced were we, morally speaking?

You are simply minimizing their acts of relinquishing responsibility for their guilt in systematically killing a people by attempting to attach it to other acts.

Turkey is saying it was not systematic. That it was simply a response to aggression and so they need not apologize. So I disagree with how Turkey is relinquishing the responsibility that you have said you know they have.

I then disagree with conflating that event with other horrors. I understand you seek to minimize the effect Synth for you stated that Turkey has your support but this just complicates the event.

If you see Turkey's complicity in the death, destruction and removal of 99% of the ENTIRE ARMENIAN population of the anatolian Turkey, then so should Turkey.

Genocide was not a sign of the times in the 1920's and the 20's is the modern times. It was a sign of the times in the Nazi era. It was the sign of the times in the Turkish movement. It was a sign of the times in Darfur. Rwanda.

Not the dates, not the times. The groups of people who did these acts in modern times with more to possibly come.

It is a sign of barbarity, not the times.

Turkey was simply sweeping the country they were in the process of creating free of Armenians.

Interesting theory.

One of my volunteers is a Turkish-Armenain college student.

He might disagree with your theory.

He's getting college credits from a Turkish university to translate books for us into Armenian.

It's not much of an theory. Look to the Greek census of the arena (188x) as well as the census of 1928. Then look at the population today.

Where did they all go? To theory?

I think not.

 

[High_Gravity]

Turkey is meddling in Iraq, Lebanon and Afghanistan, they have some nerve.

How many of those countries are they occupying?

Beofre he answers you , he might need to refer to Fox news channel for the answer

LMAO, and who the fuck are you? grab my slippers and coffee you little tramp.

 

[High_Gravity]

My point is that dicking around in other countries' affairs has never stopped the United States from telling others what to do, so I don't see why anybody should single out Turkey for criticism in this case.

The point is Turkey is criticzing Israel for being involved in Egypts affairs when it does the same thing in Iraq, Lebanon and Afghanistan. Turkey is doing just as much "dicking around" as Israel.

Maybe these countries want Turkey to meddle in their affairs. Israel is occupying "A" country and people

Maybe Egypt wants Israel to meddle in its affairs.

 

[High_Gravity]

They have acknowledged it, and expressed regret for it. But they will not agree it was genocide, since the word genocide was only coined in 1943 and there was no negative concept of such actions in 1915. Peoples went to war with each other, and massacred the other side when they could. That was how they won their wars. We were only slightly more civilized in WWI, going on at the same time period.

You can't look at it through today's lens.

I disagree with your premise. The apology comes from today's lens. You miss that entirely. The Turks committed the systematic murder of a people. The act is now called genocide, but the definition of Systematic murder of a people and Genocide is the same.

Would Turkey apologize for the "Systematic Murder of a People"?
But not Genocide? That's not a logical extension and is simply semantics.

To apologize for murder but not systematic murder admits culpability in killing, but not in the intent?

Regret does not encapsulate the intent. It is almost always in retrospect that the apologies come and Turkey hides from this responsibility of intent with apologies.

It is semantics, but words mean things. And I have yet to see an international attitude from that time period which condemned mass slaughter of one's enemies, which had been going on since the beginning of time.

At least are able to discuss the issue, unlike High-On-Meth_Gravity.

Thats really the best you got you worthless piece of trash? talking about people when they are not even here? you really showed the bitch in you.

 

[High_Gravity]

No, just what you think about the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians.

I'm a bit tired of hearing people complain about this century-old incident as if Enver Pasha himself rose from the grave and chopped their parents' heads off. I'm equally unsympathetic toward people who get upset whenever someone uses the term "genocide" to describe what took place.

I'm sure that whatever happened was very unfortunate but my sympathies for genocide victims are generally reserved who people who are actually being murdered. If it was going on to day I'd

You are minimizing the incident, if the Armenians had commited genocide on a million Muslims I guarantee you wouldn't feel this lax about it.

 

[High_Gravity]

Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Genocide in Kurdistan

 

[Ropey]

Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Genocide in Kurdistan

But here's the kettle, calling pots black.

 

[High_Gravity]

The first genocide of the 20th Century occurred when two million Armenians living in Turkey were eliminated from their historic homeland through forced deportations and massacres.

For three thousand years, a thriving Armenian community had existed inside the vast region of the Middle East bordered by the Black, Mediterranean and Caspian Seas. The area, known as Asia Minor, stands at the crossroads of three continents; Europe, Asia and Africa. Great powers rose and fell over the many centuries and the Armenian homeland was at various times ruled by Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs and Mongols.

Despite the repeated invasions and occupations, Armenian pride and cultural identity never wavered. The snow-capped peak of Mount Ararat became its focal point and by 600 BC Armenia as a nation sprang into being. Following the advent of Christianity, Armenia became the very first nation to accept it as the state religion. A golden era of peace and prosperity followed which saw the invention of a distinct alphabet, a flourishing of literature, art, commerce, and a unique style of architecture. By the 10th century, Armenians had established a new capital at Ani, affectionately called the 'city of a thousand and one churches.'

In the eleventh century, the first Turkish invasion of the Armenian homeland occurred. Thus began several hundred years of rule by Muslim Turks. By the sixteenth century, Armenia had been absorbed into the vast and mighty Ottoman Empire. At its peak, this Turkish empire included much of Southeast Europe, North Africa, and almost all of the Middle East.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/armenians.htm

 

[High_Gravity]

Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Genocide in Kurdistan

But here's the kettle, calling pots black.

Turkey is no position to take the moral high horse on anyone after what they have done to the Kurds and Armenians.

 

[High_Gravity]

Turks are trying to tell the Israelis what to do, with all these skeletons in their closet? disgusting.

 

[Ropey]

The first genocide of the 20th Century occurred when two million Armenians living in Turkey were eliminated from their historic homeland through forced deportations and massacres.

For three thousand years, a thriving Armenian community had existed inside the vast region of the Middle East bordered by the Black, Mediterranean and Caspian Seas. The area, known as Asia Minor, stands at the crossroads of three continents; Europe, Asia and Africa. Great powers rose and fell over the many centuries and the Armenian homeland was at various times ruled by Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs and Mongols.

Despite the repeated invasions and occupations, Armenian pride and cultural identity never wavered. The snow-capped peak of Mount Ararat became its focal point and by 600 BC Armenia as a nation sprang into being. Following the advent of Christianity, Armenia became the very first nation to accept it as the state religion. A golden era of peace and prosperity followed which saw the invention of a distinct alphabet, a flourishing of literature, art, commerce, and a unique style of architecture. By the 10th century, Armenians had established a new capital at Ani, affectionately called the 'city of a thousand and one churches.'

In the eleventh century, the first Turkish invasion of the Armenian homeland occurred. Thus began several hundred years of rule by Muslim Turks. By the sixteenth century, Armenia had been absorbed into the vast and mighty Ottoman Empire. At its peak, this Turkish empire included much of Southeast Europe, North Africa, and almost all of the Middle East.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/armenians.htm

Some call this "Selective Outrage"!

Selective? To me that's simply a word to minimize intent, and thus allow for rationale to be attached to the event.

Not from my side. Not from the historical perspective.

 

[High_Gravity]

The first genocide of the 20th Century occurred when two million Armenians living in Turkey were eliminated from their historic homeland through forced deportations and massacres.

For three thousand years, a thriving Armenian community had existed inside the vast region of the Middle East bordered by the Black, Mediterranean and Caspian Seas. The area, known as Asia Minor, stands at the crossroads of three continents; Europe, Asia and Africa. Great powers rose and fell over the many centuries and the Armenian homeland was at various times ruled by Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs and Mongols.

Despite the repeated invasions and occupations, Armenian pride and cultural identity never wavered. The snow-capped peak of Mount Ararat became its focal point and by 600 BC Armenia as a nation sprang into being. Following the advent of Christianity, Armenia became the very first nation to accept it as the state religion. A golden era of peace and prosperity followed which saw the invention of a distinct alphabet, a flourishing of literature, art, commerce, and a unique style of architecture. By the 10th century, Armenians had established a new capital at Ani, affectionately called the 'city of a thousand and one churches.'

In the eleventh century, the first Turkish invasion of the Armenian homeland occurred. Thus began several hundred years of rule by Muslim Turks. By the sixteenth century, Armenia had been absorbed into the vast and mighty Ottoman Empire. At its peak, this Turkish empire included much of Southeast Europe, North Africa, and almost all of the Middle East.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/armenians.htm

Some call this "Selective Outrage"!

Selective? To me that's simply a word to minimize intent, and thus allow for rationale to be attached to the event.

Not from my side. Not from the historical perspective.

What scares me is that people want to minimize this and say oh this happened 100 years ago who cares, with that kind of attitude we are doomed to repeat our mistakes. Who cares about the holocaust and slavery right? that was a long time ago, fuck it. People are really selfish, they only care about something if they have a horse in the race. Muslims don't care about the Armenians because they were not Muslim, Arabs consider the Kurds worse than dogs because they are not Arabs. If the Armenians were Muslim and the Turks were Christian the Muslim posters on this board would demand the Turks be held to account for what happened, but since the Armenians are Christians, they could care less.

 

[L.K.Eder]

i wish a mod would sort this thread, and remove all off-topic posts to separate threads.

this is not fair to other posters.

 

[Ropey]

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/armenians.htm

Some call this "Selective Outrage"!

Selective? To me that's simply a word to minimize intent, and thus allow for rationale to be attached to the event.

Not from my side. Not from the historical perspective.

What scares me is that people want to minimize this and say oh this happened 100 years ago who cares, with that kind of attitude we are doomed to repeat our mistakes. Who cares about the holocaust and slavery right? that was a long time ago, fuck it. People are really selfish, they only care about something if they have a horse in the race. Muslims don't care about the Armenians because they were not Muslim, Arabs consider the Kurds worse than dogs because they are not Arabs. If the Armenians were Muslim and the Turks were Christian the Muslim posters on this board would demand the Turks be held to account for what happened, but since the Armenians are Christians, they could care less.

History will be the judge HG.

That's why I believe America will succeed. America does learn from its mistakes. More so than any other country in history. America is one invention away...