TWA flight 800

[Two Thumbs]

Very interesting!

The US government may have covered up the murder of 230 people.

That's horrific

No more horrific when they cover up the murder of four Americans.

uhm

236 more people died

but yeah

 

[flacaltenn]

If you're brave enough and believe that Obama is not spying on you --- go do a search on Stinger missiles or man-launched surface to air.. If you're not in Guantanamo tomorrow, then the NSA took the day off.

A small arms case is all you need to take aboard. There WERE prelim reports of a rented boat out in the approx area.. Don't remember what happened to that..

We gave TONS of these to Mujahadeen fighters and AL QUEDA when they were "our buds" fighting the Russians in Afghanistan.. Really caused Russia that defeat..

Fail.

USA Stinger FIM-92
The Stinger is a passive IR homing surface-to-air missile designed to counter low altitude, short range aircraft Max. Altitude: 9,500 feet (2,900 m)


TWA 800 exploded at 13,800 Feet

Says what? The flight recorder they took YEARS to cook before releasing it? The FAA altimeter tracking that wasn't released. When govt DOES this sketchy stuff --- it BREEDS conspiracy. Because it's NOT NORMAL PROCEDURE. Especially for a mechanical engineering problem..

See any black vans outside the house?

 

[Trajan]

I have the same skepticism here I have for 911 conspiracies.....


look, the aircraft was at 13.760 feet and traveling at approx. 450 to 500 mph, so you would need a missile that can catch it, from a dead stand still.

Stinger.

no I don't see how. the stinger of that era had a range of perhaps 8-10 miles, a ceiling of maybe, 12-13 feet lets call it 14... traveled at approx. 700 mph and how do you sight it? Just point it in the air and fire? If the blast was at midway point of the main cabin which it seems it did, NOT from behind, then how did it detonate? ....They are designed as close-in weapons, those are not even operating envelopes for the weapon.

 

[SteadyMercury]

Yup, stingers are for engaging helicopters and low flying attack aircraft.

Another page with more specifics on Stinger:FIM-92A Stinger Weapons System: RMP & Basic

Range 1 to 8 kilometers
Ceiling 10,000 feet (3.046 kilometers)

Someone on a boat is not launching a stinger at an aircraft to hit it at 13,800 feet from behind. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[Trajan]

I have the same skepticism here I have for 911 conspiracies.....


look, the aircraft was at 13.760 feet and traveling at approx. 450 to 500 mph, so you would need a missile that can catch it, from a dead stand still.

Then you need the guidance equipment, that doesn't just come in a suitcase, you need the fire contl. apparatus, the radar mechanism so you can start with a 'lock', you just don't fire a missile into the air and expect it to pick up a heat signature from 10 miles away in the dark, (which it was when it was hit) from the Long Island shoreline.....a stinger for instance or any man-pack does not utilize that type of fire control and its combo of playing catch up, sighting, range and speed would make it the greatest shot since william tell.

It had to be something bigger with a large footprint or a lot closer, if its shipboard, then you're talking about how they handle the backblast, sighting in the dark of night and with the same speed and height/speed tail chase factors...


So, in the end, it has to be military, and? I just don't see a US naval ship mistakingly firing a missile that took it down and that remaining a secret for all these years, the cover up would be IMMENSE.....

I don't buy it.

ok Buzzkillian

Then why are these guys, 17 years later they had all this evidence?

If it was the US Navy? yeah, it would have leaked and leaked quickly.

so that leaves other ships that may have been in the region.

possibly just a tragic accident

Look if you're n the fire control center of an Aegis cruiser or even a DD and you just shot down an airliner, dude everyone o that ship would know it...the firing of the missile, then a detonation, the fire on the water...., you think that could be kept secret?

how? they send everyone from the ship to the same Cheyene-cheney/fuhrer bunker where they have the passengers from the Pentagon flight


I cannot see that, at all...

 

[Trajan]

Yup, stingers are for engaging helicopters and low flying attack aircraft.

Another page with more specifics on Stinger:FIM-92A Stinger Weapons System: RMP & Basic

Range 1 to 8 kilometers
Ceiling 10,000 feet (3.046 kilometers)

Someone on a boat is not launching a stinger at an aircraft to hit it at 13,800 feet from behind. Ain't gonna happen.

and it sux even more if the plane is coming at at them as they are ahead of it, or even amidships......either way, I don't see it...

 

[mamooth]

The center fuel tank blew apart catastrophically. Pieces of it blew outwards in all directions. That is not debatable, unless someone is claiming dozens of investigators deliberately lying about it, without the slightest shred of evidence to support such an accusation. And if someone is claiming that, they're too far gone beyond reason to be worth speaking to.

What kind of missile can hit the top center fuel tank?

Small missiles hit engines, and only take out an engine. They don't cause large aircraft to catastrophically explode instantly.

Large missiles, like fired from Navy ships, could do it. But such missiles are like small rockets, and would have lit up the whole night sky. No one would have called it a "flare". So that didn't happen.

In either case, missile shrapnel will be part of the wreckage. It wasn't there. No radars saw a missile. There was no missile. Unless someone is postulating a special super-secret missile, sending them off into the realm of undisprovable magic, and making them not worth talking to.

Bomb? No evidence. No high-velocity bomb damage.

The "flares"? The front end of the plane blew off, causing the now unbalanced burning aircraft to point up and climb until it exploded again.

The most sensible theory? Jim Speer is addle-brained now. Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is most likely to be correct.

 

[Dugdale_Jukes]

Iraq?

I am laughing out loud.

Anyone ever hear of a guy name of bin Laden?
Guy armed with shoulder mount AAA by ReagaNUTs just like Mr Saddam Hussein, matter of fact.

 

[Trajan]

The center fuel tank blew apart catastrophically. Pieces of it blew outwards in all directions. That is not debatable, unless someone is claiming dozens of investigators deliberately lying about it, without the slightest shred of evidence to support such an accusation. And if someone is claiming that, they're too far gone beyond reason to be worth speaking to.

What kind of missile can hit the top center fuel tank?

Small missiles hit engines, and only take out an engine. They don't cause large aircraft to catastrophically explode instantly.

Large missiles, like fired from Navy ships, could do it. But such missiles are like small rockets, and would have lit up the whole night sky. No one would have called it a "flare". So that didn't happen.

In either case, missile shrapnel will be part of the wreckage. It wasn't there. No radars saw a missile. There was no missile. Unless someone is postulating a special super-secret missile, sending them off into the realm of undisprovable magic, and making them not worth talking to.

Bomb? No evidence. No high-velocity bomb damage.

The "flares"? The front end of the plane blew off, causing the now unbalanced burning aircraft to point up and climb until it exploded.

The most sensible theory? Jim Speer is addle-brained now. Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is most likely to be correct.

add to that if it WAS military you're talking an sm- 1 or 2, they would have made mincemeat out of that aircraft.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Im sure we will all watch this upcoming video and ask more questions.

 

[SteadyMercury]

and it sux even more if the plane is coming at at them as they are ahead of it, or even amidships......either way, I don't see it...

Yeah at the altitude it would have been at when they launched I doubt the IR seeker would have a chance at getting lock. Hitting a plane that high would have had to come from a bigger missile, probably with SARH with a proximity fuse. Which leads us to....

Look if you're n the fire control center of an Aegis cruiser or even a DD and you just shot down an airliner, dude everyone o that ship would know it...the firing of the missile, then a detonation, the fire on the water...., you think that could be kept secret?

You got it, they snuck an sm-2 launch past everyone on the ship

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6FMDt8PuRg]The Missile Deck. - YouTube[/ame]

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

may have been shot down by a missile or missiles.

TWA Flight 800 crash not due to gas tank explosion, former investigators say

Jim Speer, an accident investigator at the time of the crash for the Airline Pilots Association, who sifted through the recovered wreckage in a hangar, said he discovered holes consistent with those that would be formed by a high-energy blast in the right wing. He requested it be tested for explosives. When the test came back positive, he said, he was "physically removed" from a room by two CIA agents.



Holy shit...

The fuel tank explosion story was always bullshit....Kerosene (jet fuel) doesn't explode.

It will if it's atomized....kinda like after being hit with a missile.

It's like pouring powdered none dairy creamer over an open flame. WHOOSH!!!

 

[Trajan]

Iraq?

I am laughing out loud.

Anyone ever hear of a guy name of bin Laden?
Guy armed with shoulder mount AAA by ReagaNUTs just like Mr Saddam Hussein, matter of fact.

you're another historically challenged dupe...

 

[Dugdale_Jukes]

Iraq?

I am laughing out loud.

Anyone ever hear of a guy name of bin Laden?
Guy armed with shoulder mount AAA by ReagaNUTs just like Mr Saddam Hussein, matter of fact.

you're another historically challenged dupe...

No question about it.
Reagan funded Charlie Wilson's war.

My point, obviously too complex for the nutball element, is that it isn't any more absurd to blame bin Laden than to blame Hussein.
Next time I'll just drool and go, "Yeahman. Thassitokay."

 

[Trajan]

Iraq?

I am laughing out loud.

Anyone ever hear of a guy name of bin Laden?
Guy armed with shoulder mount AAA by ReagaNUTs just like Mr Saddam Hussein, matter of fact.

you're another historically challenged dupe...

No question about it.
Reagan funded Charlie Wilson's war.

My point, obviously too complex for the nutball element, is that it isn't any more absurd to blame bin Laden than to blame Hussein.
Next time I'll just drool and go, "Yeahman. Thassitokay."

Carter began sptting the mujhadeen before Reagan was even in office ........ next time just wipe your chin first.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

may have been shot down by a missile or missiles.

TWA Flight 800 crash not due to gas tank explosion, former investigators say

Jim Speer, an accident investigator at the time of the crash for the Airline Pilots Association, who sifted through the recovered wreckage in a hangar, said he discovered holes consistent with those that would be formed by a high-energy blast in the right wing. He requested it be tested for explosives. When the test came back positive, he said, he was "physically removed" from a room by two CIA agents.



Holy shit...

I've believed this plane was shot down ever since it happened. I never bought the government's story and still don't.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Who? The US?

I can't help but speculate, I was only 9 years of age when this happened. Besides, the best place to hit a plane is in the wings, tail, or center fuselage (where a 747 would normally keep it's fuel). It might be a coverup, it might not. Don't mind me, I'm thinking out loud, Sunshine.

Well, I worked for the feds at the time. You know, the year Clinton let the government get shut down and we didn't get a paycheck for 2 months. That can really hurt a single mom with 2 kids in college! And it did. So, I wasn't exactly in 'tune' to all this although I do recall it happening. I recall I had a supervisor whose family lived on Long Island. I remember him talking about them watching the plane be brought up and out of the bay.

I went to NYC in 1992, and as densely populated as it is, I don't see how anyone could own or fire a surface to air missile launcher without someone seeing it. If there was a missile fired it had to be from the bay. Where's the boat?

Good question...

 

[Oddball]

I have the same skepticism here I have for 911 conspiracies.....


look, the aircraft was at 13.760 feet and traveling at approx. 450 to 500 mph, so you would need a missile that can catch it, from a dead stand still.

Stinger.

no I don't see how. the stinger of that era had a range of perhaps 8-10 miles, a ceiling of maybe, 12-13 feet lets call it 14... traveled at approx. 700 mph and how do you sight it? Just point it in the air and fire? If the blast was at midway point of the main cabin which it seems it did, NOT from behind, then how did it detonate? ....They are designed as close-in weapons, those are not even operating envelopes for the weapon.

Heat seeking....Altitude range 16,000 - 17,00 feet.....Fire it at the right time and a 747 on climb out from JFK could be picked off easy-cheesy.

The Stinger is launched by a small ejection motor that pushes it a safe distance from the operator before engaging the main two-stage solid-fuel sustainer, which accelerates it to a maximum speed of Mach 2.2 (750 m/s)

FIM-92 Stinger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dugdale_Jukes]

you're another historically challenged dupe...

No question about it.
Reagan funded Charlie Wilson's war.

My point, obviously too complex for the nutball element, is that it isn't any more absurd to blame bin Laden than to blame Hussein.
Next time I'll just drool and go, "Yeahman. Thassitokay."

Carter began sptting the mujhadeen before Reagan was even in office ........ next time just wipe your chin first.

What does Carter have to do with Reagan giving tens of millions of dollars to bin Laden and other "Afghan patriots? Reagan never seemed to tire of bloviating about heroic Afghan freedom fighters.

As for your wit, divide your own estimate in two and there you "half-wit".

 

[SteadyMercury]

I've believed this plane was shot down ever since it happened. I never bought the government's story and still don't.

Maybe it was, but what we're trying to figure out then is the how and the why.

The notion of someone sitting on a pleasure boat hitting a plane at 13,800 ft with a shoulder launched IR missile has (imo) been pretty well debunked, it just isn't reasonable given the effective range, and max effective altitude of stinger or SA-7.

So if the US did it with a Navy ship, consider what Trajan alluded to: it would have been SM-2 and there would have been no question as to whether that airliner was hit by a missile. It uses a proximity fuse with a huge (for a SAM) 137 lb blast fragmentation warhead, in other words the ship tries to guide the missile close enough to the target to where it can explode and do enough damage with blast effects and fragments to disable the target, regardless of whether it actually hits it. That plane would be shredded and there would be a lot more physical evidence than mysterious powders.

But say the US Government did pull it off for a false flag operation, why would they then deny it? Wouldn't the entire point be to blame someone else? Saying their investigators concluded it was an accident doesn't seem like a false flag operation to me.

Accidental launch? Again, you aren't sneaking a missile launch past the crew of a ship, so you'd have 300+ people to keep silent. How do you do that? Tell a bunch of junior enlisted people making 14k that they better never tell that we just fired a missile near Long Island where an airliner happend to go down.

Lots of holes in the theories so far.