Two reasons why " Negotiations" will fail

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

When we, in science, talk about life, we often speak of the critical elements to life. We are a carbon-based life form and so we think of Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen. Having said that, where would we be without the other Alkali Metals, Earth Metals, Metalloids, Non-Metals, Halogens, Noble Gases and Rare Earth Elements? It is possible to speak of a process and yet, not mention every single element that is important to the process.

I don't know. Have you ever hears of either of them mentioned in the peace process?

(COMMENT)

The essentials to a "Peace Process" are the ability to agree, compromise, and open channels for a continuing dialog. Concepts like "justice and international law" are basic molecules to the outcome of agreement. Justice is subjective. In the US there is no crime for which "stoning" is a justified penalty; just as we don't cut a pickpocket's hand off for theft. Globally, international law is a consensus outcome; it cannot be reached without "agreement."

While I agree that "justice and international law" are basic to the "peace process," they are molecules formed out of agreement, compromise, and open (good faith) channels for an honest and continuing dialog that leads to consensus.

A "peace process" does not have to comply with "justice and international law" to be successful. Success is based on whether the outcome culminates in a lasting peace.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

When we, in science, talk about life, we often speak of the critical elements to life. We are a carbon-based life form and so we think of Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen. Having said that, where would we be without the other Alkali Metals, Earth Metals, Metalloids, Non-Metals, Halogens, Noble Gases and Rare Earth Elements? It is possible to speak of a process and yet, not mention every single element that is important to the process.

I don't know. Have you ever hears of either of them mentioned in the peace process?

(COMMENT)

The essentials to a "Peace Process" are the ability to agree, compromise, and open channels for a continuing dialog. Concepts like "justice and international law" are basic molecules to the outcome of agreement. Justice is subjective. In the US there is no crime for which "stoning" is a justified penalty; just as we don't cut a pickpocket's hand off for theft. Globally, international law is a consensus outcome; it cannot be reached without "agreement."

While I agree that "justice and international law" are basic to the "peace process," they are molecules formed out of agreement, compromise, and open (good faith) channels for an honest and continuing dialog that leads to consensus.

A "peace process" does not have to comply with "justice and international law" to be successful. Success is based on whether the outcome culminates in a lasting peace.

Most Respectfully,
R

True but they always flop without a good base. We should have learned that by now.

 

[proudveteran06]

P F Tinmore, et al,

When we, in science, talk about life, we often speak of the critical elements to life. We are a carbon-based life form and so we think of Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen. Having said that, where would we be without the other Alkali Metals, Earth Metals, Metalloids, Non-Metals, Halogens, Noble Gases and Rare Earth Elements? It is possible to speak of a process and yet, not mention every single element that is important to the process.

I don't know. Have you ever hears of either of them mentioned in the peace process?

(COMMENT)

The essentials to a "Peace Process" are the ability to agree, compromise, and open channels for a continuing dialog. Concepts like "justice and international law" are basic molecules to the outcome of agreement. Justice is subjective. In the US there is no crime for which "stoning" is a justified penalty; just as we don't cut a pickpocket's hand off for theft. Globally, international law is a consensus outcome; it cannot be reached without "agreement."

While I agree that "justice and international law" are basic to the "peace process," they are molecules formed out of agreement, compromise, and open (good faith) channels for an honest and continuing dialog that leads to consensus.

A "peace process" does not have to comply with "justice and international law" to be successful. Success is based on whether the outcome culminates in a lasting peace.

Most Respectfully,
R

True but they always flop without a good base. We should have learned that by now.

He gives the above answer yet at the same time states there is no reason for the Palestinians to compromise on anything. When asked why Israel would agree to terms that even he agrees would eventually destroy them there is no response.

Therefore ; No " palestinian state"

 

[proudveteran06]

Jordan eyes role in Israeli-Palestinian talks - Middle East - Al Jazeera English


Jordan will play a role in the negotiations for a final settlement in the long-running conflict between Palestinians and Israelis, the kingdom's prime minister has said.

In an interview with Al Jazeera, Abdullah Ensour said Jordan's involvement in the talks should not be perceived as an intervention by the kingdom. Instead, it should be viewed as a way for protecting Jordanian interests, including rights of Palestinian refugees many of whom have found shelter there, he said.



Arab states back Israel-Palestine land swaps - Middle East - Al Jazeera English





Arab states back Israel-Palestine land swaps




Qatari PM says Palestinians and Israel can swap land rather than stick to 1967 borders, drawing praise from Israel.































US Secretary of State John Kerry met members of the Arab League to discuss Israeli-Palestinian peace [Reuters]


A senior Qatari official has said Israel and the Palestinians could trade land rather than conform exactly to their 1967 borders in what appears to be a softening of Arab states' stance on the 2002 peace plan.

Sheikh Hamad bin Jassim al-Thani, Qatar's prime minister and foreign minister, made the comment on Monday after he and a group of Arab officials met US Secretary of State John Kerry to discuss how to promote Israeli-Palestinian peace.

Speaking on behalf of an Arab League delegation, Sheikh Hamad appeared to make a concession to Israel by explicitly raising the possibility of land swaps.


None of the above will happen. As a result there will never be a " Palestinian State"

Nice post!

I believe you have captured the very reason why there may never be a long term peace or final resolution to this situation, neither side is willing to meet half way or come to a mutual understanding.

Israel offered them almost everything they wanted. There are those who claim Olmert offered them a " bad deal". When asked what " counter offers" were made there was no response. After all, isn't that was " negotiating" is supposed to be about??

 

[sealadaigh]

What's so hilarious, Tinmore? All of us need a laugh on this day.

Didn't anyone tell those clowns that Hamas won the elections?

That would be like Obama wresting the US from Romney.

there is a long history of failed peace efforts being revived and succeeding when previously proscibed organisations or groups have been included. south africa and the six counties in northeastern ireland spring to mind.

HAMAS has a loud voice and they will be heard, whether it be from across a negotiating table or from the barrels of their guns.

 

[sealadaigh]

P F Tinmore, et al,

When we, in science, talk about life, we often speak of the critical elements to life. We are a carbon-based life form and so we think of Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen and Oxygen. Having said that, where would we be without the other Alkali Metals, Earth Metals, Metalloids, Non-Metals, Halogens, Noble Gases and Rare Earth Elements? It is possible to speak of a process and yet, not mention every single element that is important to the process.

I don't know. Have you ever hears of either of them mentioned in the peace process?

(COMMENT)

The essentials to a "Peace Process" are the ability to agree, compromise, and open channels for a continuing dialog. Concepts like "justice and international law" are basic molecules to the outcome of agreement. Justice is subjective. In the US there is no crime for which "stoning" is a justified penalty; just as we don't cut a pickpocket's hand off for theft. Globally, international law is a consensus outcome; it cannot be reached without "agreement."

While I agree that "justice and international law" are basic to the "peace process," they are molecules formed out of agreement, compromise, and open (good faith) channels for an honest and continuing dialog that leads to consensus.

A "peace process" does not have to comply with "justice and international law" to be successful. Success is based on whether the outcome culminates in a lasting peace.

Most Respectfully,
R

and a lasting peace is based upon an outcome that produces a just peace, which international law serves as a guideline for the creation of a viable and thriving palestine...not a poverty stricken bantustine.

negotiate a scrap yard and israel will be living next to scrap yard dogs...hungry scrap yard dogs.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What's so hilarious, Tinmore? All of us need a laugh on this day.

Didn't anyone tell those clowns that Hamas won the elections?

That would be like Obama wresting the US from Romney.

Yeah, I heard about Hamas stealing the elections but since nobody will negotiate with terrorists, the US and Israel are letting Abu Mazen run the show. Oh, and I know he's been out of the picture since 2007 but someone forgot to tell him. Better get on the horn and let ol' Abu know.

They are too chicken to talk to the elected government so they talk to someone who has no authority to cut a deal.

Our government reminds me of a dog with his chain around a tree.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Didn't anyone tell those clowns that Hamas won the elections?

That would be like Obama wresting the US from Romney.

Yeah, I heard about Hamas stealing the elections but since nobody will negotiate with terrorists, the US and Israel are letting Abu Mazen run the show. Oh, and I know he's been out of the picture since 2007 but someone forgot to tell him. Better get on the horn and let ol' Abu know.

They are too chicken to talk to the elected government so they talk to someone who has no authority to cut a deal.

Our government reminds me of a dog with his chain around a tree.

I remember the times of the body parts flying around, and if I remember that, imagine what my relatives remember! Also, Hamas is a bunch of religious extremists, which secular-minded Americans can't relate to. I wouldn't talk to someone who didn't recognize me either! I wouldn't call it chicken, I'd call it smart. And I don't see all the tough-talkers here moving to Gaza, and fighting for their cause.

 

[Hossfly]

Didn't anyone tell those clowns that Hamas won the elections?

That would be like Obama wresting the US from Romney.

Yeah, I heard about Hamas stealing the elections but since nobody will negotiate with terrorists, the US and Israel are letting Abu Mazen run the show. Oh, and I know he's been out of the picture since 2007 but someone forgot to tell him. Better get on the horn and let ol' Abu know.

They are too chicken to talk to the elected government so they talk to someone who has no authority to cut a deal.

Our government reminds me of a dog with his chain around a tree.

One question, Tinmore. Kerry is in Israel now to negotiate a deal between Israel and Palestine. If a deal is reached, Netanyahu will sign for Israel. Whose signature will seal the deal for Palestine?

 

[Hossfly]

Didn't anyone tell those clowns that Hamas won the elections?

That would be like Obama wresting the US from Romney.

Yeah, I heard about Hamas stealing the elections but since nobody will negotiate with terrorists, the US and Israel are letting Abu Mazen run the show. Oh, and I know he's been out of the picture since 2007 but someone forgot to tell him. Better get on the horn and let ol' Abu know.

They are too chicken to talk to the elected government so they talk to someone who has no authority to cut a deal.

Our government reminds me of a dog with his chain around a tree.

Did Hamas tell you to say that Israelis were chickens, Tinmore? What else did they tell you? I think your fellow Hamas friends should be the ones who are chained. Maybe then they wouldn't always be so silly to start shooting rockets into Israel? Maybe Russia has the right idea when it comes to terrorists.
Russia Developing ?Terrorist-Killer Robots? Eurasia Review

 

[proudveteran06]

Didn't anyone tell those clowns that Hamas won the elections?

That would be like Obama wresting the US from Romney.

Yeah, I heard about Hamas stealing the elections but since nobody will negotiate with terrorists, the US and Israel are letting Abu Mazen run the show. Oh, and I know he's been out of the picture since 2007 but someone forgot to tell him. Better get on the horn and let ol' Abu know.

They are too chicken to talk to the elected government so they talk to someone who has no authority to cut a deal.

Our government reminds me of a dog with his chain around a tree.

I wish the Pro Palestinian would make up his mind. First he says the Palestinians don't have to " negotiate" then he talks about Hamas cutting a deal.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7283506

Above is what the Palestinian does not tell you




Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel


Халед Машааль ХАМАСKhaled Mashaal
Photo: EPA



The radical Palestinian Hamas movement turns down the possibility of territorial exchange with Israel, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said in his interview with the Al Jazeera TV channel on Thursday.



He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants, adding that an exchange could allow Israel to annex regions with Jewish settlements.

The foreign ministers of the Arab countries said at the meeting with US Secretary of State John Kerry that the recognition of Israel is not conditioned by its return to the 1967 frontiers any more but allows an opportunity of a proportional exchange of territories.
Read more: Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel : The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video


The above is a very short article so I took out a few things. Obviously the link is there

 

[proudveteran06]

Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel : The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video


Sorry, this is it. Received a phone call

 

[P F Tinmore]

Yeah, I heard about Hamas stealing the elections but since nobody will negotiate with terrorists, the US and Israel are letting Abu Mazen run the show. Oh, and I know he's been out of the picture since 2007 but someone forgot to tell him. Better get on the horn and let ol' Abu know.

They are too chicken to talk to the elected government so they talk to someone who has no authority to cut a deal.

Our government reminds me of a dog with his chain around a tree.

I wish the Pro Palestinian would make up his mind. First he says the Palestinians don't have to " negotiate" then he talks about Hamas cutting a deal.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7283506

Above is what the Palestinian does not tell you




Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel


Халед Машааль ХАМАСKhaled Mashaal
Photo: EPA



The radical Palestinian Hamas movement turns down the possibility of territorial exchange with Israel, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said in his interview with the Al Jazeera TV channel on Thursday.



He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants, adding that an exchange could allow Israel to annex regions with Jewish settlements.

The foreign ministers of the Arab countries said at the meeting with US Secretary of State John Kerry that the recognition of Israel is not conditioned by its return to the 1967 frontiers any more but allows an opportunity of a proportional exchange of territories.
Read more: Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel : The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video


The above is a very short article so I took out a few things. Obviously the link is there

He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants

There is no requirement or reason to do so. So why should they?

 

[proudveteran06]

They are too chicken to talk to the elected government so they talk to someone who has no authority to cut a deal.

Our government reminds me of a dog with his chain around a tree.

I wish the Pro Palestinian would make up his mind. First he says the Palestinians don't have to " negotiate" then he talks about Hamas cutting a deal.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7283506

Above is what the Palestinian does not tell you




Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel


Халед Машааль ХАМАСKhaled Mashaal
Photo: EPA



The radical Palestinian Hamas movement turns down the possibility of territorial exchange with Israel, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said in his interview with the Al Jazeera TV channel on Thursday.



He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants, adding that an exchange could allow Israel to annex regions with Jewish settlements.

The foreign ministers of the Arab countries said at the meeting with US Secretary of State John Kerry that the recognition of Israel is not conditioned by its return to the 1967 frontiers any more but allows an opportunity of a proportional exchange of territories.
Read more: Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel : The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video


The above is a very short article so I took out a few things. Obviously the link is there

He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants

There is no requirement or reason to do so. So why should they?

They are too chicken to talk to the elected government so they talk to someone who has no authority to cut a deal.


1) If you feel this way why even talk about " cutting a deal?"


2) Why should Israel agree to terms that even you admit would eventually eliminate their existence?

3) Why is Kerry and others pushing for " negotiations?"


Gave you three answers and you cant even give one. Does that answer your question?

Personally, Let Hamas and the PLO take their stand. As long as they do there will never be the " palestinian state" they want.

 

[proudveteran06]

He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants

There is no requirement or reason to do so. So why should they?

Forgot on thing; E. Jerusalem is where Israel's most religious sites are and they will never be denied them again

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore; et al,

This is exactly the point I've tried to make several time.

They are too chicken to talk to the elected government so they talk to someone who has no authority to cut a deal.

Our government reminds me of a dog with his chain around a tree.

I wish the Pro Palestinian would make up his mind. First he says the Palestinians don't have to " negotiate" then he talks about Hamas cutting a deal.

Above is what the Palestinian does not tell you

Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel

The radical Palestinian Hamas movement turns down the possibility of territorial exchange with Israel, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said in his interview with the Al Jazeera TV channel on Thursday.

He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants, adding that an exchange could allow Israel to annex regions with Jewish settlements.

The foreign ministers of the Arab countries said at the meeting with US Secretary of State John Kerry that the recognition of Israel is not conditioned by its return to the 1967 frontiers any more but allows an opportunity of a proportional exchange of territories.

The above is a very short article so I took out a few things. Obviously the link is there

He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants

There is no requirement or reason to do so. So why should they?

(COMMENT)

Neither side is hurting enough to make the necessary sacrifice and compromise necessary to secure a lasting peace.

Both sides believe that they can outlast the other. And while there is a hope on each side that this is true, neither side will be willing to address a useful agreement.

• On the Israeli side, it will be necessary for them to continue the Occupation of the West Bank, and the quarantine on Gaza. Making them even more miserable if Possible.
  
• On the Palestinian side, they need to keep the hostility up and the propaganda effort cooking in order to outlast the Israeli.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[ForeverYoung436]

They are too chicken to talk to the elected government so they talk to someone who has no authority to cut a deal.

Our government reminds me of a dog with his chain around a tree.

I wish the Pro Palestinian would make up his mind. First he says the Palestinians don't have to " negotiate" then he talks about Hamas cutting a deal.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7283506

Above is what the Palestinian does not tell you




Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel


Халед Машааль ХАМАСKhaled Mashaal
Photo: EPA



The radical Palestinian Hamas movement turns down the possibility of territorial exchange with Israel, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said in his interview with the Al Jazeera TV channel on Thursday.



He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants, adding that an exchange could allow Israel to annex regions with Jewish settlements.

The foreign ministers of the Arab countries said at the meeting with US Secretary of State John Kerry that the recognition of Israel is not conditioned by its return to the 1967 frontiers any more but allows an opportunity of a proportional exchange of territories.
Read more: Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel : The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video


The above is a very short article so I took out a few things. Obviously the link is there

He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants

There is no requirement or reason to do so. So why should they?

Because the selfish Arabs already have 22 states, and archaeology proves Israel is the Jewish homeland, and we pray about Israel 3x a day?

 

[proudveteran06]

P F Tinmore; et al,

This is exactly the point I've tried to make several time.

I wish the Pro Palestinian would make up his mind. First he says the Palestinians don't have to " negotiate" then he talks about Hamas cutting a deal.

Above is what the Palestinian does not tell you

Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel

The radical Palestinian Hamas movement turns down the possibility of territorial exchange with Israel, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said in his interview with the Al Jazeera TV channel on Thursday.

He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants, adding that an exchange could allow Israel to annex regions with Jewish settlements.

The foreign ministers of the Arab countries said at the meeting with US Secretary of State John Kerry that the recognition of Israel is not conditioned by its return to the 1967 frontiers any more but allows an opportunity of a proportional exchange of territories.

The above is a very short article so I took out a few things. Obviously the link is there

He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants

There is no requirement or reason to do so. So why should they?

(COMMENT)

Neither side is hurting enough to make the necessary sacrifice and compromise necessary to secure a lasting peace.

Both sides believe that they can outlast the other. And while there is a hope on each side that this is true, neither side will be willing to address a useful agreement.

• On the Israeli side, it will be necessary for them to continue the Occupation of the West Bank, and the quarantine on Gaza. Making them even more miserable if Possible.
  
• On the Palestinian side, they need to keep the hostility up and the propaganda effort cooking in order to outlast the Israeli.

Most Respectfully,
R

Since you have superior knowledge concerning this topic I would like to know what your solution would be ( Serious question, NOT being sarcastic ) Can't get a response from the Palestinian.

We know Israel gave up Gaza. Immediately after their Rocket Fire intensified . They offered to give up most of the W. Bank. I believe they also offered to make E. Jerusalem the Capital of " palestine" but to share it. In THEIR best interests, what do you think they should do?

Thanks !

 

[P F Tinmore]

I wish the Pro Palestinian would make up his mind. First he says the Palestinians don't have to " negotiate" then he talks about Hamas cutting a deal.


http://www.usmessageboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7283506

Above is what the Palestinian does not tell you




Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel


Халед Машааль ХАМАСKhaled Mashaal
Photo: EPA



The radical Palestinian Hamas movement turns down the possibility of territorial exchange with Israel, Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal said in his interview with the Al Jazeera TV channel on Thursday.



He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants, adding that an exchange could allow Israel to annex regions with Jewish settlements.

The foreign ministers of the Arab countries said at the meeting with US Secretary of State John Kerry that the recognition of Israel is not conditioned by its return to the 1967 frontiers any more but allows an opportunity of a proportional exchange of territories.
Read more: Hamas does not want to make concesions to Israel : The Voice of Russia: News, Breaking news, Politics, Economics, Business, Russia, International current events, Expert opinion, podcasts, Video


The above is a very short article so I took out a few things. Obviously the link is there

He said that Palestinians must not give an inch of their land to the occupants

There is no requirement or reason to do so. So why should they?

They are too chicken to talk to the elected government so they talk to someone who has no authority to cut a deal.


1) If you feel this way why even talk about " cutting a deal?"

Good question. A deal isn't going to happen.

2) Why should Israel agree to terms that even you admit would eventually eliminate their existence?

They aren't.

3) Why is Kerry and others pushing for " negotiations?"

They have to pretend to do something. Rice came and went and nothing happened. Clinton came and went and nothing happened. Kerry will come and go and nothing will happen. You can put money on that.

Gave you three answers and you cant even give one. Does that answer your question?

No.

Personally, Let Hamas and the PLO take their stand. As long as they do there will never be the " palestinian state" they want.

Almost nobody in Palestine is talking about "a state."

 

[proudveteran06]

There is no requirement or reason to do so. So why should they?

They are too chicken to talk to the elected government so they talk to someone who has no authority to cut a deal.


1) If you feel this way why even talk about " cutting a deal?"

Good question. A deal isn't going to happen.



They aren't.



They have to pretend to do something. Rice came and went and nothing happened. Clinton came and went and nothing happened. Kerry will come and go and nothing will happen. You can put money on that.

Gave you three answers and you cant even give one. Does that answer your question?

No.

Personally, Let Hamas and the PLO take their stand. As long as they do there will never be the " palestinian state" they want.

Almost nobody in Palestine is talking about "a state."

Asked you three questions and there is still no answer because you can't give one. Still haven't told us why Israel would agree to their own self destruction, Give up all Rights to E. Jerusalem or agree to borders that were never recognized before. Why is the Arab League and Kerry calling for both parties to " negotiate?" Are you " too chicken" to answer? lol



I'm glad you realize one thing; " palestine" will never become a " state"