UN Admits: Palestinians used UN schools to launch rockets and store weapons

[rhodescholar]

War crimes charges don't have to go through the ICC there sport.

You claimed the only reason Israel had not been charged was because of the protection of the US on the UNSC, which is false.

 

[rhodescholar]

Not if the building is filled with civilians no. The strategic gain at that point of striking the building is outweighed by the likely cost in civilian lives.

WRONG, and the GC explains this. If terrorists/combatants are firing deadly weapons fire that causes you to have to decide between saving your own people, or having to endure collateral damage/lost civilians on the other side to stop them, the GC are clear that you can fire to stop them. The GC does not prevent the concept of self-defense. Keep trying, superstar...

 

[montelatici]

Proportionality is the sole determinate. Self defense equations are part of the proportionality equation.

Again, you are wrong. The GC are quite clear on this fact, why you're even arguing this point shows you're either lazy, stupid or delusional. Proportionality does not have to be the sole determining factor.

Customary IHL - Practice Relating to Rule 14. Proportionality in Attack

You don't seem to know what the concept of proportionality is.

Firing a rocket at a building that contains terrorists that are firing rockets at you. That not proportional to you.

Not if the building is filled with civilians no. The strategic gain at that point of striking the building is outweighed by the likely cost in civilian lives.

If my butt. Again there is no proof that Israel was intentionally firing at civilians. Just accusations and false comparisons.

The United Nations condemned Israel on Monday for its responsibility in the destruction of several schools which served as U.N. shelters, during the operation Protective Edge in 2014. The U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon ordered an investigation on the attacks in November last year, after 44 Palestinian civilians died inside the U.N. shelters and another 227 were injured.
"At the time, the Israeli government justified the indiscriminate bombing by alleging the schools were being used to hide weapons. However, the 207-page investigation shows that weapons were only found in three schools, which were empty not being used by the U.N.

This content was originally published by teleSUR at the following address:
UN Blames Israel for School Attacks in Gaza News teleSUR English. If you intend to use it, please cite the source and provide a link to the original article. teleSUR English

 

[Roudy]

"Israel deploying the 'Gaza doctrine' to terrorize civilians"

"The purpose of the Gaza doctrine is straightforward: to use disproportionate force to cause suffering and terror among the civilian population in order to exert pressure on the Hamas government. This policy of collective punishment, of deliberately causing terror, is unequivocally illegal, but it is all too real."

Israel deploying the Gaza doctrine to terrorize civilians Opinion Analysis M G

Opinion analysis. Ha ha ha. ANALyze this.

 

[Roudy]

Again, you are wrong. The GC are quite clear on this fact, why you're even arguing this point shows you're either lazy, stupid or delusional. Proportionality does not have to be the sole determining factor.

Customary IHL - Practice Relating to Rule 14. Proportionality in Attack

You don't seem to know what the concept of proportionality is.

Firing a rocket at a building that contains terrorists that are firing rockets at you. That not proportional to you.

Not if the building is filled with civilians no. The strategic gain at that point of striking the building is outweighed by the likely cost in civilian lives.

If my butt. Again there is no proof that Israel was intentionally firing at civilians. Just accusations and false comparisons.

The United Nations condemned Israel on Monday for its responsibility in the destruction of several schools which served as U.N. shelters, during the operation Protective Edge in 2014. The U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon ordered an investigation on the attacks in November last year, after 44 Palestinian civilians died inside the U.N. shelters and another 227 were injured.
"At the time, the Israeli government justified the indiscriminate bombing by alleging the schools were being used to hide weapons. However, the 207-page investigation shows that weapons were only found in three schools, which were empty not being used by the U.N.

This content was originally published by teleSUR at the following address:
UN Blames Israel for School Attacks in Gaza News teleSUR English. If you intend to use it, please cite the source and provide a link to the original article. teleSUR English

Yeah and?

 

[Roudy]

^^^^^^
Monte firing duds as usual. Ha ha ha.

 

[aris2chat]

We've literally posted direct proof from the UN admitting to Palestinians using UN schools for rocket storage at least 10 times in this thread. It's obvious he can't handle it.

According to the basic laws of war to which Israel is a party that still doesn't make such buildings a legitimate military target.

If the red cross tent has rockets firing from it then the red cross is not longer neutral and they do become a target.
If the UN staff permit rockets to be stored or fired from their building, then the UN is no longer neutral.
How many people can be killed before Israel should end the rockets from the UN building?
Now the UN has asked that Israel contact headquarters before firing on targets with UN flags.
If hamas had taken over a UN building to use as a base, it does not mean they are protected. Hamas could paint every building with a blue UN and attack Israel, so Israel should have no recourse? Wrong.
UN simple wants a chance to correct the situation before turning their buildings to powder.
Things like the UN, red cross or white flag is only worthwhile if both sides respect them. Once hamas violates that neutrality it is the same as using human shield, it become worthless, they become legal targets.

If arabs/hamas reject UN resolutions, Rules of Engagment, HR or International Law, it does not mean Israel should be handcuffed, shackled and nailed to a cross with a big bulls eye painted on it heart to make it be the only one to comply.

All those presumed civilians that Israel intentionally killed and the UN said there were 44 and they were collateral.
The other 2000(?) militants, legal targets.

The UN cannot give a green light to the extermination of Israel. They would become a target to every other terrorist and militant group and most of the world's armies. They would not just go the way of the LoN but there would likely never be another organization to unite the nations again.

 

[Phoenall]

We've literally posted direct proof from the UN admitting to Palestinians using UN schools for rocket storage at least 10 times in this thread. It's obvious he can't handle it.

According to the basic laws of war to which Israel is a party that still doesn't make such buildings a legitimate military target.

Care to cite these "basic laws of war" then and compare them to the Geneva conventions

 

[Phoenall]

"UNITED NATIONS — Israeli military actions killed 44 Palestinian civilians who had sought refuge in seven United Nations schools during last summer’s conflict in Gaza, the United Nations said Monday in releasing findings of an internal inquiry.

It also said that weapons had not been found inside those United Nations schools, but rather in three other United Nations-run schools that were vacant at the time......."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/28/w...lled-44-civilians-in-schools-in-gaza-war.html

All the propaganda in the world doesn't change the facts you bunch of clowns.

That's right and the fact that the UN admitted that rocket launchers were in the vicinity of these schools means that your propaganda does not change the facts either. And nor do your RACIST LIES

 

[Phoenall]

We've literally posted direct proof from the UN admitting to Palestinians using UN schools for rocket storage at least 10 times in this thread. It's obvious he can't handle it.

According to the basic laws of war to which Israel is a party that still doesn't make such buildings a legitimate military target.

Camel crap. The UN "schools" were proven to have been Hamas arsenals making them legit military targets. Hamas should not store people were they keep their rockets. Interestingly, when the weapons were discovered they were conveniently returned to Hamas.
So much for the UN's legitimacy there.

The presence of enemies or of enemy material does not automatically make a target an acceptable military target under the laws of war. Suggestion otherwise generally stems from people who aren't familiar with the actual laws of war to which states like Israel are a party (which is fine, but it causes a lot of confusion and incorrect assertions such as the above). In order for a target to be a legitimate military target the strategic gain from striking it MUST outweigh the risk to civilian people and infrastructure. Striking a school packed full of people because a few rockets are hidden in the area is a failure of that test. It is a failure to discriminate between civilian and enemy targets. This is also why practices such as the use of cluster munitions within heavily populated areas are often considered a war crime, or why indiscriminate shelling is often considered a war crime, or why targeting apartment blocks or hospitals, or civilian infrastructure is often considered a war crime. Even when a target such as a school or hospital is deemed a legitimate military target it is still incumbent upon the military to give specific warning to the location of an impending strike and couple it with time to evacuate. The failure of this test is another reason why such acts can constitute war crimes. Sri Lanka was criticized for the same thing as well when it shelled UN and government hospitals in 2009 while fighting the LTTE.

Yes it does and if you read the Geneva conventions you will see where they say just this. As well as saying any person acting as a human shield becomes unarmed militia and a valid target

 

[Phoenall]

"UNITED NATIONS — Israeli military actions killed 44 Palestinian civilians who had sought refuge in seven United Nations schools during last summer’s conflict in Gaza, the United Nations said Monday in releasing findings of an internal inquiry.

It also said that weapons had not been found inside those United Nations schools, but rather in three other United Nations-run schools that were vacant at the time......."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/28/w...lled-44-civilians-in-schools-in-gaza-war.html

All the propaganda in the world doesn't change the facts you bunch of clowns.

So um, Hamas cleaned up after themselves. The weapons were fired from there. Good enough for me.

Not good enough for the international law to which Israel is a party.

Name that International Law and on what date it was enacted

 

[Phoenall]

It's much more of a crime to use a school to store and launch rockets from. In fact only barbaric animals would use their own children for this purpose.

It is a crime to to hide behind civilians or to attempt to deliberately use civilian safe centers or civilian movements to mask military activity. That crime however doesn't in any way alleviate Israel of its own responsibilities under international law. Trying to justify one gross crime with another is a pretty barbaric act as well.

And your posts are just uneducated waffle because you don't cite the actual law and the date it was enacted.

 

[aris2chat]

So Israel is supposed to not fight back, not defend itself, while Hamas commits all these war crimes unmolested?

Not at all. Israel is merely expected not to engage in war crimes and indiscriminate violence of its own.

How do you defeat an enemy who hides within civilians and refuses to fight you like a man without harming those civilians he is hiding within? It can't be done. Your answer makes it easier for such people to win battles. Those who are willing to do what must be done survive, those who don't die. Watch The Walking Dead Online Streaming Stream TV Free

The harming of civilians isn't in and of itself a war crime. The indiscriminate targeting of civilians and the failure of individual strikes to meet the proportionality requirements is. I also prefer not to get my morals from a fictional TV show.

It is proportional to use whatever force is necessary to KILL your enemy so they can't try to kill you any longer. To use less force than that would be stupid.

That's not what the term proportionality means. That is a common misconception. proportionality legally speaking is the strategic value of striking a target relative to the damage it is likely to do to civilians and their property. If the end result is that the strategic value of a strike can't be reconciled with the civilian cost associated with it then it fails the proportionality requirement.

If hamas pulls a knife, it does not mean Israel or the UN pull out a ticket book and crayon.
Israel is fighting for it's life, they will pull a gun. They don't want an extended equal match indefinitely, they are not playing ping pong. They want to shut down the fighting as quickly as possible. Game, set , match.

If hamas had free access to money and weapons, do you think they would be engaged in talks with Israel right now, or firing at Israel?

 

[Phoenall]

It's much more of a crime to use a school to store and launch rockets from. In fact only barbaric animals would use their own children for this purpose.

It is a crime to to hide behind civilians or to attempt to deliberately use civilian safe centers or civilian movements to mask military activity. That crime however doesn't in any way alleviate Israel of its own responsibilities under international law. Trying to justify one gross crime with another is a pretty barbaric act as well.

Palestinians commit the crime of using civilians, especially children as shields all the time. This is nothing new.

It isn't. I agree. But that doesn't in any way change Israel's responsibilities under international law or let Israel off of the hook for the war crimes that it commits as well.

Strange how the ICC have found Israel to have not committed any war crimes, yet they found hamas had

 

[Phoenall]

It's much more of a crime to use a school to store and launch rockets from. In fact only barbaric animals would use their own children for this purpose.

It is a crime to to hide behind civilians or to attempt to deliberately use civilian safe centers or civilian movements to mask military activity.

And what is the punishment for committing that crime, a stern lecture?

Nothing too serious directly. The loss of moral face, the loss of international support over time, being able to legitimately be called an entity that engages in war crimes. It is generally propaganda gold for those who oppose various administrations.

And yet it has not stopped hamas from doing this yet, if the UN instigated arrest warrants for the hamas leaders for war crimes and put them in prison it might do the job

 

[fanger]

Israel arrests and imprisons Palestinian leaders without needing any arrest warrant, or charges

 

[Phoenall]

It's much more of a crime to use a school to store and launch rockets from. In fact only barbaric animals would use their own children for this purpose.

It is a crime to to hide behind civilians or to attempt to deliberately use civilian safe centers or civilian movements to mask military activity. That crime however doesn't in any way alleviate Israel of its own responsibilities under international law. Trying to justify one gross crime with another is a pretty barbaric act as well.

Palestinians commit the crime of using civilians, especially children as shields all the time. This is nothing new.

It isn't. I agree. But that doesn't in any way change Israel's responsibilities under international law or let Israel off of the hook for the war crimes that it commits as well.

Israel is responsible first and foremost for the security of its people.

I agree, but that doesn't justify war crimes. Such crimes are, by their nature, not worth the military gain from engaging in them. They represent a gross neglect of human rights and a clear violation of international laws that Israel is a party to and has agreed to abide by. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. That's why we have created a common consensus concerning the rules of war and delineated what is and isn't acceptable. Israel has simply routinely engaged in military acts that are well within the realm of that which has been deemed unacceptable, barbaric, and inhumane.

Who has been cited by the ICC for war crimes then, as the ICC have just recemntly announced that it wont be taking any action against Israel for alleged war crimes.
So it seems that in your Nazi racism you ignore the facts and just want to see Israel and the Jews demonised and invaded to satisfy your lust for revenge

 

[Phoenall]

Palestinians commit the crime of using civilians, especially children as shields all the time. This is nothing new.

It isn't. I agree. But that doesn't in any way change Israel's responsibilities under international law or let Israel off of the hook for the war crimes that it commits as well.

Israel is responsible first and foremost for the security of its people.

I agree, but that doesn't justify war crimes. Such crimes are, by their nature, not worth the military gain from engaging in them. They represent a gross neglect of human rights and a clear violation of international laws that Israel is a party to and has agreed to abide by. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. That's why we have created a common consensus concerning the rules of war and delineated what is and isn't acceptable. Israel has simply routinely engaged in military acts that are well within the realm of that which has been deemed unacceptable, barbaric, and inhumane.

So Israel is supposed to not fight back, not defend itself, while Hamas commits all these war crimes unmolested?

Not at all. Israel is merely expected not to engage in war crimes and indiscriminate violence of its own.

And who has proven that they are engaged in war crimes, as the ICC have said they wont be taking any action against Israel.

 

[Phoenall]

Palestinians commit the crime of using civilians, especially children as shields all the time. This is nothing new.

It isn't. I agree. But that doesn't in any way change Israel's responsibilities under international law or let Israel off of the hook for the war crimes that it commits as well.

Israel is responsible first and foremost for the security of its people.

I agree, but that doesn't justify war crimes. Such crimes are, by their nature, not worth the military gain from engaging in them. They represent a gross neglect of human rights and a clear violation of international laws that Israel is a party to and has agreed to abide by. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. That's why we have created a common consensus concerning the rules of war and delineating what is and isn't acceptable. Israel has simply routinely engaged in military acts that are well within the realm of that which has been deemed unacceptable, barbaric, and inhumane.

Why don't you preach to yourself then? Like I said U.S. and forces from other nations routinely had to engage when fired upon from schools, mosques, and hospitals.

And that can be acceptable. This is where the international legal concept of proportionality (which I have already explained) comes into play. Not every attack against say, a mosque, school, or hospital is a war crime. It must meet certain conditions in order to be judged as such.

No such legal concept, if there was then wars would never end as neither party would be able to defeat the other. There has to be a stronger party to win the war, which is why the UN stepping in to bring a halt is wrong. It would be different if the UN declared the winning side and penalised the losers, but they don't so the war is just held in abeyance.

 

[Phoenall]

Israel arrests and imprisons Palestinian leaders without needing any arrest warrant, or charges

Name a nation that doesn't arrest terrorists without arrest warrants, even the USA do this and holds them in gitmo