Unarmed exchange student killed by homeowner

[Pogo]

Only it was burglary, wasn't it? He intended to take the purse, after all.

We can never know, can we?

I would raise an objection for cause of speculation here. "Why else would he have been there?" I would ask. "To say hi? Or to steal the purse? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I intend to prove that Dede had the intent of committing burglary. It is this: his accomplice stated in his deposition that Dede had the full intent of burglarizing the home the day he was killed. Unless his accomplice perjured himself during his deposition to police, then can we assume that Dede had every intention of burglarizing that home?"

I mean, that's what I'd say if I were a lawyer.

One other thing I'd like to note here, is that I would also object to Pogo's citation of the law, known as "Arguing the law," he is telling us all how we should interpret the law, instead of letting us apply applicable law as it is codified and intended. In the court of law, and as I can tell in this debate; that is not a permissible thing to do.

How the hell are you going to do anything without arguing how the law works? The law is a series of sentences that just sit there; they don't do anything until they're applied. I don't get your point here. We're supposed to read the law and then just sit around going "wonder what that means"?

Who's "us"? Do you mean I should STFU and just let those who disagree carry the day? I don't get it. And wtf do you mean arguing the law is "not a permissible thing to do" in court? What the hell do you think goes on in court?

To the first part, you cannot argue a crime based on imagined intent when no such act has actually been committed. That's the same as assuming "oh here comes a black guy, he's going to rob me". Can't do that. Far as I know (and I've probably read more stories on this than anybody even translating some from German) there has been no report that Dede had taken something in the garage, or that he had taken something from some other garage or any other place, ever. And we do have descriptions; he had nothing but his cell phone, which was sprawled on the floor. So predicting what his next move "would have" been is a fool's errand.

Assumption will get you in a ton of trouble. That guy a few months ago who shot the 19-year-old black girl who knocked on his door? He assumed she was up to -- well, we don't know what he assumed but clearly she wasn't a threat either. The Japanese student blown away in Louisiana -- again the homeowner assumes, yet there was no threat there either. This guy made an assumption, and just like the others, it was deadly. When do we start learning something from this shit? When do we grow a damn pair and quit cowering in little individual terrorist cells, daring anything that moves to 'cross that line' like Monty Python's black knight, lest we blow them away? When do we simply grow the fuck up? This is the primitive territorial posturing of children -- children with deadly toys.

 

[Pogo]

Ahh and upon further reading, I would agree the burden of proof lies with the prosecution in this case in determining whether or not Kaarma feared for his life or property. The key point I notice here is that Kaarma's home had been previously burglarized, which would lead me to believe he did, psychologically a burglary is traumatizing. Me and my grandmother came home to discover it had been burglarized when I was 6 years old. I know how I would feel if it happened to me a second time.

As much as some folks wouldn't like this, this is a proper application of the state's castle doctrine.

Again, in order to defend you have to be on defense. When you open up a trap and then take a sniper position outside, where the intruder's only egress is coming toward you, then you're not on defense; you're on offense.

Moreover he predicted a week ahead that he was going to do exactly what he did. Offense is active; defense reactive. You can and must plan an offense, which is illustrated in his rant to the hairdresser. You can't plan a defense, since you can't know the plan of the offense. This guy predicted exactly what he was going to do, and exactly did it.

 

[Pogo]

I read the story and I don't care what the story says.

This piece of shit walked into a man's home uninvited. I don't care if every door ad window to the house was open no one has a right to enter someone else's property unless invited by the home owner or they are a law enforcement officer with a valid warrant.

I would never convict a home owner who shot someone who invaded his home.

You're STILL dancing around the point. It appears to be all you have. And the point has to do with the flow on this thread, not the story.

But you illustrate something basic here that maybe we haven't touched on:

This piece of shit walked into a man's home uninvited

How do you know the kid is a "piece of shit"? Do you know him personally? What can you tell us about him?

He entered a man's home uninvited under cover of darkness. What do you suppose he had in mind?

We'll never know, will we? I don't presume to read minds or predict 'what if' scenaria.

If I walk into your store "intending" to pocket a can of tuna fish, but then decide against it and leave with nothing, have I committed a crime? Speculation is bullshit.

And speaking of speculation -- you didn't touch the question. Did you know the deceased, yes or no?

 

[Pogo]

Ahh and upon further reading, I would agree the burden of proof lies with the prosecution in this case in determining whether or not Kaarma feared for his life or property. The key point I notice here is that Kaarma's home had been previously burglarized, which would lead me to believe he did, psychologically a burglary is traumatizing. Me and my grandmother came home to discover it had been burglarized when I was 6 years old. I know how I would feel if it happened to me a second time.

As much as some folks wouldn't like this, this is a proper application of the state's castle doctrine.

Yes.

Agreed.

And we are a nation of laws,

Barring any further substantive developments in favor of the Prosecution, as things stand now...

Kaarma will be acquitted by a jury of his peers.

I just love it when wags come in presuming to speak for the people of Missoula. Smacks of desperation.

So far the only post to actually present what the locals actually DO think was mine. Maybe I should bring it forward.

Here ya go, this is for you SkullPilot --- while I continue to wait for that answer:

More background...

The sendoff for Diren Dede indicates more than a few people did not think him "a piece of shit"...

(-- from Julia Schaaf: "America Was his Dream")

>> With the body of Diren Dede enroute from Missoula to Hamburg, almost 500 people gather on the football field of the Big Sky High School on Friday to see him off at a vigil. Most classmates are crying in each other's arms, sharing some memories at the 17-year-old exchange student who was shot and killed last Sunday by a neighbor of his host parents.

... About 1000 people [in Hamburg, above] came to express their grief and disbelief over the death of the young man. Candles, souvenir pictures, the football anthem "You'll never walk alone", an exuberant buffet with burek, donuts and muffins, to collect donations.

... Meanwhile Diren's host parents and the neighbors of the Grant Creek district are trying to counteract the often bandied image of a nation of brutal gun nuts. "The first two days we were in a trance," says host father Randy Smith. "Suddenly we found ourselves at the Big Sky High School with 40 crying classmates and a handful of mourning companions again. On the third day we finally decided to do something. A crazy shooter may not dominate the image that others make of us."

So the couple has put together a makeshift memorial in front of his house which grows day by day. Among the first purple pansies and red geraniums plush toys, candles and cards have appeared. ...Neighbors like 71-year-old Katherine Kuebler, who's lived in the residential area in the north of Missoula for 15 years, make time repeatedly to light candles. In many front yards German flags and balloons and ribbons in black, red and gold have been seen flapping in the wind recently. "We want to express our sympathy to Germany and show the people there that we are just as angry and stunned by the shots as they are", says host mother Walker. << (my own translation)​

-- now THAT is the Montana I know. They've been shouted down by every armchair wag from internet coast to coast; let them speak for themselves.

The infamous driveway as seen from across the street -- note black/gold/red (German national colours) display in sympathy for a "piece of shit"​

I wouldn't assume the people of Missoula automatically mirror what gun nuts want them to mirror like so many obedient robots; they actually live there; it's reality for them, not a message board where you can take any position you want in the role of Internet Tough Guy.

I bet they just love being so patronized too.

 

[Pogo]

He entered a man's home uninvited under cover of darkness. What do you suppose he had in mind?

But... but... but... but... we cannot know, with that last itty-bitty ounce of certainty, because he's now pushing-up daisies in Germany.

Reasonable doubt... a gift on a silver platter, from Dede to Kaarma, attributable to Dede's actions...

Reasonable doubt... it's a bitch-kitty...

More callous disregard for human life. And as such, disgusting.

 

[Skull Pilot]

You're STILL dancing around the point. It appears to be all you have. And the point has to do with the flow on this thread, not the story.

But you illustrate something basic here that maybe we haven't touched on:



How do you know the kid is a "piece of shit"? Do you know him personally? What can you tell us about him?

He entered a man's home uninvited under cover of darkness. What do you suppose he had in mind?

We'll never know, will we? I don't presume to read minds or predict 'what if' scenaria.

If I walk into your store "intending" to pocket a can of tuna fish, but then decide against it and leave with nothing, have I committed a crime? Speculation is bullshit.

And speaking of speculation -- you didn't touch the question. Did you know the deceased, yes or no?

Walking into a store is not a crime.

Walking into someone's home uninvited under cover of darkness is a crime.

I don't have to know him. He was a criminal and all criminals are pieces of shit

 

[Pogo]

I don't have to know him. He was a criminal and all criminals are pieces of shit

Thank you. That's what I thought. You're dismissed, elitist.


This post and the last one - perfect examples of that same old dichotomous thinking; "us" vs. "them". "We" with the super-secret handshake membership in the tree house are superior to "they" the lower caste, the animals, the 'pieces of shit'. That's the mentality right there.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I don't have to know him. He was a criminal and all criminals are pieces of shit

Thank you. That's what I thought. You're dismissed, elitist.


This post and the last one - perfect examples of that same old dichotomous thinking; "us" vs. "them". "We" with the super-secret handshake membership in the tree house are superior to "they" the lower caste, the animals, the 'pieces of shit'. That's the mentality right there.

Excuse the fuck out of me for not hugging the neighborhood felon.

Tell you what why don't you open a halfway house for pedophiles and let your kids or grandkids provide entertainment for them.

What's that? You wouldn't do that?

Well you're just a fucking elitist snob aren't you?

 

[Pogo]

Meltdown with attached strawman. Dismissed.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Meltdown with attached strawman. Dismissed.

So you won't do it huh?

I won't waste one iota of sympathy on a criminal.

I will save my sympathy for their victims.

 

[Pogo]

None so blind.


Lemme tell ya 'bout "criminals" Mr. Dipshit Simpliciter. "Criminal" means someone who's been convicted of a crime. So you're saying the law and justice system is perfect in defining this "criminal" caste? It never errs? Will you be saying that when you're unjustly accused or convicted on bullshit circumstantial evidence?

I might owe my life to a "criminal" (I say "might" since it's not certain whether I would have bled to death) -- this "piece of shit" who was a medic in Vietnam used his expertise to get my bleeding stopped and then got me to a facility. Once I was in and being seen, he left the car we used and found another way home, because he was a fugitive from the law. I spent the rest of the night getting stitched back together but got out of it alive -- thanks to a "piece of shit", one of this untouchable caste of yours.

You simplistic statist dichotomists who can't be bothered to break a synapse sweat, ever bent on dividing people into cops and robbers in your juvenile intellect-- y'all crack me up.

 

[Kondor3]

He entered a man's home uninvited under cover of darkness. What do you suppose he had in mind?

But... but... but... but... we cannot know, with that last itty-bitty ounce of certainty, because he's now pushing-up daisies in Germany.

Reasonable doubt... a gift on a silver platter, from Dede to Kaarma, attributable to Dede's actions...

Reasonable doubt... it's a bitch-kitty...

More callous disregard for human life. And as such, disgusting.

Doesn't change the gift (benefit-of-a doubt) that Dede gave to Kaarma.

Doesn't change the likelihood that Kaarma is gonna get off scot-free.

Nobody is callously disregarding human life.

Merely observing, in a firm and unmistakable fashion, that human life is oftentimes terminated due to the stupidity of the human in question.

Trying to put words into people's mouths and spin-doctoring honest, freely-given feedback... well... that's a little closer to disgusting, than openness and honesty.

All your failed attempts at portraying it otherwise, notwithstanding.

Are we done with the juvenile pissing-contest Me-Good-You-Bad part of this yet?

 

[Skull Pilot]

None so blind.


Lemme tell ya 'bout "criminals" Mr. Dipshit Simpliciter. "Criminal" means someone who's been convicted of a crime. So you're saying the law and justice system is perfect in defining this "criminal" caste? It never errs? Will you be saying that when you're unjustly accused or convicted on bullshit circumstantial evidence?

A criminal is one who commits a crime. This punk committed a crime by entering a stranger's home uninvited in the middle of the night. Who knows what other crimes he would have committed if the home owner had not protected his property.

I might owe my life to a "criminal" (I say "might" since it's not certain whether I would have bled to death) -- this "piece of shit" who was a medic in Vietnam used his expertise to get my bleeding stopped and then got me to a facility. Once I was in and being seen, he left the car we used and found another way home, because he was a fugitive from the law. I spent the rest of the night getting stitched back together but got out of it alive -- thanks to a "piece of shit", one of this untouchable caste of yours.

Yeah nice story.

You simplistic statist dichotomists who can't be bothered to break a synapse sweat, ever bent on dividing people into cops and robbers in your juvenile intellect-- y'all crack me up.

Life is simple. I have never broken the law. I do not knowingly associate with nor do I have any sympathy for those who have.

 

[Pogo]

None so blind.


Lemme tell ya 'bout "criminals" Mr. Dipshit Simpliciter. "Criminal" means someone who's been convicted of a crime. So you're saying the law and justice system is perfect in defining this "criminal" caste? It never errs? Will you be saying that when you're unjustly accused or convicted on bullshit circumstantial evidence?

A criminal is one who commits a crime. This punk committed a crime by entering a stranger's home uninvited in the middle of the night. Who knows what other crimes he would have committed if the home owner had not protected his property.

I might owe my life to a "criminal" (I say "might" since it's not certain whether I would have bled to death) -- this "piece of shit" who was a medic in Vietnam used his expertise to get my bleeding stopped and then got me to a facility. Once I was in and being seen, he left the car we used and found another way home, because he was a fugitive from the law. I spent the rest of the night getting stitched back together but got out of it alive -- thanks to a "piece of shit", one of this untouchable caste of yours.

Yeah nice story.

You simplistic statist dichotomists who can't be bothered to break a synapse sweat, ever bent on dividing people into cops and robbers in your juvenile intellect-- y'all crack me up.

Life is simple. I have never broken the law. I do not knowingly associate with nor do I have any sympathy for those who have.

Yeah. We know.
Good luck figuring your way out of that.

 

[Skull Pilot]

None so blind.


Lemme tell ya 'bout "criminals" Mr. Dipshit Simpliciter. "Criminal" means someone who's been convicted of a crime. So you're saying the law and justice system is perfect in defining this "criminal" caste? It never errs? Will you be saying that when you're unjustly accused or convicted on bullshit circumstantial evidence?

A criminal is one who commits a crime. This punk committed a crime by entering a stranger's home uninvited in the middle of the night. Who knows what other crimes he would have committed if the home owner had not protected his property.



Yeah nice story.

You simplistic statist dichotomists who can't be bothered to break a synapse sweat, ever bent on dividing people into cops and robbers in your juvenile intellect-- y'all crack me up.

Life is simple. I have never broken the law. I do not knowingly associate with nor do I have any sympathy for those who have.

Yeah. We know.
Good luck figuring your way out of that.

No need to waste energy figuring that out.

Criminals are criminals and I do not and will not trust one.

If you want to open your arms to every Tom Dick and felon feel free.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Ahh and upon further reading, I would agree the burden of proof lies with the prosecution in this case in determining whether or not Kaarma feared for his life or property. The key point I notice here is that Kaarma's home had been previously burglarized, which would lead me to believe he did, psychologically a burglary is traumatizing. Me and my grandmother came home to discover it had been burglarized when I was 6 years old. I know how I would feel if it happened to me a second time.

As much as some folks wouldn't like this, this is a proper application of the state's castle doctrine.

Yes.

Agreed.

And we are a nation of laws,

Barring any further substantive developments in favor of the Prosecution, as things stand now...

Kaarma will be acquitted by a jury of his peers.

I just love it when wags come in presuming to speak for the people of Missoula. Smacks of desperation.

So far the only post to actually present what the locals actually DO think was mine. Maybe I should bring it forward.

Here ya go, this is for you SkullPilot --- while I continue to wait for that answer:

More background...

The sendoff for Diren Dede indicates more than a few people did not think him "a piece of shit"...

(-- from Julia Schaaf: "America Was his Dream")

>> With the body of Diren Dede enroute from Missoula to Hamburg, almost 500 people gather on the football field of the Big Sky High School on Friday to see him off at a vigil. Most classmates are crying in each other's arms, sharing some memories at the 17-year-old exchange student who was shot and killed last Sunday by a neighbor of his host parents.

... About 1000 people [in Hamburg, above] came to express their grief and disbelief over the death of the young man. Candles, souvenir pictures, the football anthem "You'll never walk alone", an exuberant buffet with burek, donuts and muffins, to collect donations.

... Meanwhile Diren's host parents and the neighbors of the Grant Creek district are trying to counteract the often bandied image of a nation of brutal gun nuts. "The first two days we were in a trance," says host father Randy Smith. "Suddenly we found ourselves at the Big Sky High School with 40 crying classmates and a handful of mourning companions again. On the third day we finally decided to do something. A crazy shooter may not dominate the image that others make of us."

So the couple has put together a makeshift memorial in front of his house which grows day by day. Among the first purple pansies and red geraniums plush toys, candles and cards have appeared. ...Neighbors like 71-year-old Katherine Kuebler, who's lived in the residential area in the north of Missoula for 15 years, make time repeatedly to light candles. In many front yards German flags and balloons and ribbons in black, red and gold have been seen flapping in the wind recently. "We want to express our sympathy to Germany and show the people there that we are just as angry and stunned by the shots as they are", says host mother Walker. << (my own translation)​

-- now THAT is the Montana I know. They've been shouted down by every armchair wag from internet coast to coast; let them speak for themselves.

The infamous driveway as seen from across the street -- note black/gold/red (German national colours) display in sympathy for a "piece of shit"​

I wouldn't assume the people of Missoula automatically mirror what gun nuts want them to mirror like so many obedient robots; they actually live there; it's reality for them, not a message board where you can take any position you want in the role of Internet Tough Guy.

I bet they just love being so patronized too.

You can give all the background you want, still doesn't change the fact he committed a crime, Pogo. Case in point.

 

[Pogo]

Yes.

Agreed.

And we are a nation of laws,

Barring any further substantive developments in favor of the Prosecution, as things stand now...

Kaarma will be acquitted by a jury of his peers.

I just love it when wags come in presuming to speak for the people of Missoula. Smacks of desperation.

So far the only post to actually present what the locals actually DO think was mine. Maybe I should bring it forward.

Here ya go, this is for you SkullPilot --- while I continue to wait for that answer:

More background...

The sendoff for Diren Dede indicates more than a few people did not think him "a piece of shit"...

(-- from Julia Schaaf: "America Was his Dream")

>> With the body of Diren Dede enroute from Missoula to Hamburg, almost 500 people gather on the football field of the Big Sky High School on Friday to see him off at a vigil. Most classmates are crying in each other's arms, sharing some memories at the 17-year-old exchange student who was shot and killed last Sunday by a neighbor of his host parents.

... About 1000 people [in Hamburg, above] came to express their grief and disbelief over the death of the young man. Candles, souvenir pictures, the football anthem "You'll never walk alone", an exuberant buffet with burek, donuts and muffins, to collect donations.

... Meanwhile Diren's host parents and the neighbors of the Grant Creek district are trying to counteract the often bandied image of a nation of brutal gun nuts. "The first two days we were in a trance," says host father Randy Smith. "Suddenly we found ourselves at the Big Sky High School with 40 crying classmates and a handful of mourning companions again. On the third day we finally decided to do something. A crazy shooter may not dominate the image that others make of us."

So the couple has put together a makeshift memorial in front of his house which grows day by day. Among the first purple pansies and red geraniums plush toys, candles and cards have appeared. ...Neighbors like 71-year-old Katherine Kuebler, who's lived in the residential area in the north of Missoula for 15 years, make time repeatedly to light candles. In many front yards German flags and balloons and ribbons in black, red and gold have been seen flapping in the wind recently. "We want to express our sympathy to Germany and show the people there that we are just as angry and stunned by the shots as they are", says host mother Walker. << (my own translation)​

-- now THAT is the Montana I know. They've been shouted down by every armchair wag from internet coast to coast; let them speak for themselves.

The infamous driveway as seen from across the street -- note black/gold/red (German national colours) display in sympathy for a "piece of shit"​

I wouldn't assume the people of Missoula automatically mirror what gun nuts want them to mirror like so many obedient robots; they actually live there; it's reality for them, not a message board where you can take any position you want in the role of Internet Tough Guy.

I bet they just love being so patronized too.

You can give all the background you want, still doesn't change the fact he committed a crime, Pogo. Case in point.

we're watching Skull dig deeper...


Lemme ask you this -- what do you think the point of that post was?

I'm just wondering if it's obvious or really obscure...

 

[TemplarKormac]

To the first part, you cannot argue a crime based on imagined intent when no such act has actually been committed. That's the same as assuming "oh here comes a black guy, he's going to rob me". Can't do that. Far as I know (and I've probably read more stories on this than anybody even translating some from German) there has been no report that Dede had taken something in the garage, or that he had taken something from some other garage or any other place, ever. And we do have descriptions; he had nothing but his cell phone, which was sprawled on the floor. So predicting what his next move "would have" been is a fool's errand.

In the court of law, the intent to commit a crime and commission of the crime are practically the same thing. He didn't need to take the purse, he had to intend to take the purse. That's all it takes. You cannot speak for our justice system, Pogo, you cannot assume to make the law what you want it to be. The law is clear, trespassing with the intent to commit theft is what we call burglary.

This is Trayvon Martin v.2. This time the kid barged into someone else's property and paid a terrible price. Your "he had nothing but his cell phone, which was sprawled on the floor" is nothing but a plea of sympathy for someone who committed a criminal act, which itself smacks of desperation.

 

[Pogo]

To the first part, you cannot argue a crime based on imagined intent when no such act has actually been committed. That's the same as assuming "oh here comes a black guy, he's going to rob me". Can't do that. Far as I know (and I've probably read more stories on this than anybody even translating some from German) there has been no report that Dede had taken something in the garage, or that he had taken something from some other garage or any other place, ever. And we do have descriptions; he had nothing but his cell phone, which was sprawled on the floor. So predicting what his next move "would have" been is a fool's errand.

In the court of law, the intent to commit a crime and commission of the crime are practically the same thing. He didn't need to take the purse, he had to intend to take the purse. That's all it takes. You cannot speak for our justice system, Pogo, you cannot assume to make the law what you want it to be. The law is clear, trespassing with the intent to commit theft is what we call burglary.

This is Trayvon Martin v.2. This time the kid barged into someone else's property and paid a terrible price. Your "he had nothing but his cell phone, which was sprawled on the floor" is nothing but a plea of sympathy for someone who committed a criminal act, which itself smacks of desperation.

Such intent is not established. Is "garage hopping" burglary?

As posted earlier, I garage hopped as a kid. Never took anything though.

You can't run on speculation of what somebody "would have" done "if" he were still alive. Now if the kid had the purse in his hand you might have a different result. If he took the purse and ran off with it you definitely would. But none of that happened.

Matter of fact we also know the GF put stuff in her bait that she documented, so that it could be traced later. That was a wise thing to do. But that plan never got a chance to manifest due to a hotheaded hair-trigger act.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I just love it when wags come in presuming to speak for the people of Missoula. Smacks of desperation.

So far the only post to actually present what the locals actually DO think was mine. Maybe I should bring it forward.

Here ya go, this is for you SkullPilot --- while I continue to wait for that answer:




I wouldn't assume the people of Missoula automatically mirror what gun nuts want them to mirror like so many obedient robots; they actually live there; it's reality for them, not a message board where you can take any position you want in the role of Internet Tough Guy.

I bet they just love being so patronized too.

You can give all the background you want, still doesn't change the fact he committed a crime, Pogo. Case in point.

we're watching Skull dig deeper...


Lemme ask you this -- what do you think the point of that post was?

I'm just wondering if it's obvious or really obscure...

Well... presuming that this conversation took place well over 4 hours ago, I can say he most likely stopped digging. Your post employed a giant bandwagon fallacy, with a no true scotsman fallacy built in. "You can't assume to speak for the people of Missoula" well no, but that is beside the point. Some kid committed a crime and was killed in the process. You imply that no true Missoulan would ever be the gun nut SkullPilot thinks they should be. Just how can you presume to speak for them all as well? Do you live there?

You asked, I answered.