Uncovered Women

[catzmeow]

Equality and Sameness are not interchangeable ideals. What Feminism and the Women's Movement seek is not EQUALITY, but SAMENESS. They want to remove the lines between the genders completely. Four quarters has an EQUAL value to a dollar bill. However they are NOT ths SAME coinage, and in many situations one may be of no use despite the fact that they have the exact same overall value.

If you had your druthers, would women be legally allowed to work, own property, have oversight of their own affairs, etc.?

I've been told my opinion on this matter is wrong before. I'll be told it again in the future. When I start worrying about or concerning myself with anyone else's opinion on this topic I'll be sure to note your dissent.

Ditto. I'm okay with agreeing to disagree. Which is one of the reasons that, although I think Sunni is wired improperly on several subjects, I haven't really had a problem getting along with him.

I'm sure it will. However, his military service (which I thank him for) and his ability to wield power tools do not make him any less a part of the problem than the gutless metrosexual males who dominate the area of the country I live in.

Exactly what has he done that has made him a part of the "problem"? He's an honest/ethical person who works hard and is good to my kids (from a previous marriage). He's a good role model.

Nah. I wouldn't go anywhere near that far. Socialism, I'll give you folks partial credit but beyond that and the destruction of the Nuclear Family and American society you don't get a whole lot more.

Silly men, always trying to take credit for stuff they didn't do.

Not quite, but I'm sure that's how it will be portrayed no mater how I attempt to explain it, so I'm not really sure it's worth wasting the time and energy to explain it. If you're REALLY interested in the explaination let me know.

I am interested in the power politics between men and women.

I DON'T WANT modern women beating down my door, thank you very much. They're the LAST THING I want in my life, thank you very much.

And the traditional girls aren't likely to even knock...

I've always felt that I should have been born South of the Mason-Dixon Line rather than North of it. I have had the pleasure of spending some time in the South and generally find both the women and the Men to be much more agreeable to my way of looking at the world down there than in this cesspool called New England. However, it seems to be rather difficult to find someone down there willing to pay me nearly $35 an hour to work for them in that area of the country.

We are slightly more mellow than the folks up north.

 

[Squrl]

Not workable in the modern era whatsoever.

 

[AllieBaba]

Anassronism has stated ad nauseum that he thinks working women are worthless. And he uses phrases like that.

He's a mentally ill, small dicked retard who isn't good enough to lick the shoes of any female on the face of the earth. And I include lesbians in that summation. He's scary.

 

[High_Gravity]

All uncovered women form a line and follow me please.

 

[AllieBaba]

Here you go, HG:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Uncovered-Women-Image-Jordan-Matter/dp/0615230970]Amazon.com: Uncovered: Women in Word and Image (9780615230979): Jordan Matter: Books[/ame]

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't know Anachronism well enough to know exactly where he is coming from, but I didn't find his post here offensive and I found myself agreeing with it on some level.

Before I explain, I will say that for most of my adult life I have held jobs more commonly held by men, I have never been paid less than the guys because I was a woman, and once I went on a commission basis (which I prefer) I outearned most of them. I was a charter member of NOW in Kansas and was Exec of an agency committed to ending racism, sexism, and other 'isms.

Nevertheless, I am convinced that God made men and women different and that we should be celebrating our differences and unique strengths instead of trying to achieve some sort of equality in sameness.

Aside: In the beginning God created man. And he then said, "I can do better than that' and he created woman.

So for me, in most cases I want an equal chance to compete, but I don't want standards lowered so that I can. I want equal pay for equal work, but I accept that when I take time off to rear a family I will lose out on experience and advancement enjoyed by those who do not. And that's okay because it was my choice.

And while I would never agree to it being mandatory, I do think if we truly value equality in freedom, we will respect those who choose relationships different from what we would choose for ourselves.

 

[Anachronism]

If you had your druthers, would women be legally allowed to work, own property, have oversight of their own affairs, etc.?

Single women, married women without children, and mothers whose children had reached the age of majority would be allowed to work in a limited capacity. The ownership of taxable property (homes, cars, etc...) would be restricted to Men for the most part (with certain exceptions). Women would not be allowed to vote. Any intelligent Man is going to take the opinions of his wife into account. He should be the one with the final say, but that's more of a personal issue.

Exactly what has he done that has made him a part of the "problem"? He's an honest/ethical person who works hard and is good to my kids (from a previous marriage). He's a good role model.

I'm sure he's a wonderful person. The problem is that way too many "men" have allowed these ridiculous social experiments like women's liberation to go far beyond where they ever should have been allowed to. Especially once it became brutally obvious that these things are having dangerously detrimental affects on American Society.

Silly men, always trying to take credit for stuff they didn't do.

Trust me, you women don't want to take credit for most of those things. Many of them are Capital Crimes in my book.

I am interested in the power politics between men and women.

The best quick way to explain my viewpoint on this issue goes back to a commentary on how the Norse saw the world..... "The loving couple stood arm in arm on the threshold of the door to their longhouse surveying the world over which they were in total command. He looked outwards into His and she looked inward into hers."

As I've said many times, I'm a Traditionalist. I don't go quite as far as the ridiculous "barefoot and pregnant" concept you commented on earlier, but I definitely believe in Gender Roles and the idea that there are certain responsibilities and duties that are intrinsicly either Male or female in nature. Having said that, I see Men and women as opposite sides of the same coin. A coin with two heads or two tails is worthless. The mint melts them down and re-presses them. Just like they do with coins where the head and tail are printed reversed (backwards). Both sides of the coin need to be minted properly for the coin to have its proper value and place in society. Without either side, both sides are worthless.

And the traditional girls aren't likely to even knock....

That is the problem at my end. It is so difficult to even find Traditional women in this part of the country. Most of them belong to exclusive religious organizations or other closed-door groups if they exist at all in the Northeast. Those that do exist tend to be very difficult to locate and you're right that they're not the types to come looking for Men themselves.

We are slightly more mellow than the folks up north.

I don't know about that. The priorities and style of life are very different up here and down there. Personally, I prefer the Southern priorities and lifestyle; I just haven't been able to get things in line to get the hell out of here. I'm hoping to be moving to PA in the next year or so which will be a little better; but I'm hoping someday it might be NC or SC or possibly even further into the heart of Dixie. Maybe I'll be the third member of my family to hop on a train to Richmond and never be heard from again. The other two did it in early 1861, loaded down with arms and ammunition to join the Confederate Army.

 

[Anachronism]

I don't know Anachronism well enough to know exactly where he is coming from, but I didn't find his post here offensive and I found myself agreeing with it on some level.

I'm coming from a VERY Conservative and Traditional base, Foxfyre. Neither of my grandmothers worked a day in their lives outside of their homes. Neither of them ever had a driver's license. They passed away in 1988 and 1992 respectively.

Nevertheless, I am convinced that God made men and women different and that we should be celebrating our differences and unique strengths instead of trying to achieve some sort of equality in sameness.

That would be a nice change.

And while I would never agree to it being mandatory, I do think if we truly value equality in freedom, we will respect those who choose relationships different from what we would choose for ourselves.

True. Though one has to understand that freedom also includes the choice not to associate with those who do choose a different lifestyle.

 

[High_Gravity]

Here you go, HG:

Amazon.com: Uncovered: Women in Word and Image (9780615230979): Jordan Matter: Books

Thanks.

 

[catzmeow]

Nevertheless, I am convinced that God made men and women different and that we should be celebrating our differences and unique strengths instead of trying to achieve some sort of equality in sameness.

Personally speaking, because I've worked primarily in male-dominated jobs, at which I've excelled, I've found that while I may have done the job slightly differently than a man (I'm much more prone to use humor than to go toe to toe with someone), I haven't done the job worse (in fact, in many cases, my skills have been much better than some of my male counterparts).

But, there is a baseline assumption to these arguments that men and women are intrinsically different, which seems to equate to men having a sameness, and women having a sameness, that is not my experience. I'm not a believer, per se, but men and women are different. So are men and men. And, women and women. I've had more in common with some of my male work peers, and less in common with some of my female neighbors. Just because I have breasts and a vagina doesn't make me like other women, and unlike men.

We're all human beings, and there as many divergent differences WITHIN the genders as there are between them.

There seems also to be a standard of maleness and femaleness that in my experience has been very detrimental to some. Women are to be physically attractive, emotional, nurturing, and creative. Men are to be strong, thinking, challenging and rule following.

So, what about women who are strong and challenging? Are they automatically anti-feminine? That isn't my experience. I come from a long line of pioneer women who settled the midwest and worked as hard, and side by side, with their men. Being tough and working hard was a virtue in my family, for both men and women.

Too often, this translates into there being one right way to be female, and one right way to be male, and I find this arbitrary, cultural, and limiting.

I can be soft and nurturing, but I am also strong, assertive, capable, and competent.

So for me, in most cases I want an equal chance to compete, but I don't want standards lowered so that I can. I want equal pay for equal work, but I accept that when I take time off to rear a family I will lose out on experience and advancement enjoyed by those who do not. And that's okay because it was my choice.

I agree 100%. I also believe that if men believe that they are more suited or in better professional circumstances to perform the majority of child-rearing, they should be able to do so without stigma. Whoever has the best skills in a particular area should perform the work, in a ultilitarian fashion, rather than jobs being set aside as male or female.

And while I would never agree to it being mandatory, I do think if we truly value equality in freedom, we will respect those who choose relationships different from what we would choose for ourselves.

To thine own self be true. I agree. I've taken more than a single ration of shit, however, from fundamentalists who think I'm an evil America destroying feminist.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Any who teach that woman is to submit to man has a devilish spirit.

 

[catzmeow]

Single women, married women without children, and mothers whose children had reached the age of majority would be allowed to work in a limited capacity. The ownership of taxable property (homes, cars, etc...) would be restricted to Men for the most part (with certain exceptions). Women would not be allowed to vote. Any intelligent Man is going to take the opinions of his wife into account. He should be the one with the final say, but that's more of a personal issue.

So, basically, it would be like living in Saudi Arabia? Yeah. You and Sunni should create your own society in rural alaska and live like kings with whatever women will have you.

I'm sure he's a wonderful person. The problem is that way too many "men" have allowed these ridiculous social experiments like women's liberation to go far beyond where they ever should have been allowed to. Especially once it became brutally obvious that these things are having dangerously detrimental affects on American Society.

My kids are good citizens. They work hard in school and are generally good people. I fail to see the dangerously detrimental effects of my female liberation. As far as my guy goes, he isn't attracted to unliberated women. He wanted a partner, not a domestic servant.

The best quick way to explain my viewpoint on this issue goes back to a commentary on how the Norse saw the world..... "The loving couple stood arm in arm on the threshold of the door to their longhouse surveying the world over which they were in total command. He looked outwards into His and she looked inward into hers."

That's fine, for you. But, when you attempt to enforce your views on larger society, then you can sod off. (In the nicest possible way, of course)

As I've said many times, I'm a Traditionalist. I don't go quite as far as the ridiculous "barefoot and pregnant" concept you commented on earlier, but I definitely believe in Gender Roles and the idea that there are certain responsibilities and duties that are intrinsicly either Male or female in nature. Having said that, I see Men and women as opposite sides of the same coin. A coin with two heads or two tails is worthless. The mint melts them down and re-presses them. Just like they do with coins where the head and tail are printed reversed (backwards). Both sides of the coin need to be minted properly for the coin to have its proper value and place in society. Without either side, both sides are worthless.

INteresting. I see my partner and I back to back, protecting each other's weak points and prepared to take on the world (both armed, of course).

That is the problem at my end. It is so difficult to even find Traditional women in this part of the country. Most of them belong to exclusive religious organizations or other closed-door groups if they exist at all in the Northeast. Those that do exist tend to be very difficult to locate and you're right that they're not the types to come looking for Men themselves.

I would think that you could find them within a Christian religious congregation, but are you pagan? Pagan girls are few and far between and most are of the fluffy wiccan variation, as you know.

I don't know about that. The priorities and style of life are very different up here and down there. Personally, I prefer the Southern priorities and lifestyle; I just haven't been able to get things in line to get the hell out of here. I'm hoping to be moving to PA in the next year or so which will be a little better; but I'm hoping someday it might be NC or SC or possibly even further into the heart of Dixie. Maybe I'll be the third member of my family to hop on a train to Richmond and never be heard from again. The other two did it in early 1861, loaded down with arms and ammunition to join the Confederate Army.

Meh. Southern reconstructionists.

 

[jillian]

Hey I like uncovered women.

I'm shocked.

 

[High_Gravity]

Hey I like uncovered women.

I'm shocked.

I know but there it is, I want my lifestyle to be respected.

 

[jillian]

Single women, married women without children, and mothers whose children had reached the age of majority would be allowed to work in a limited capacity. The ownership of taxable property (homes, cars, etc...) would be restricted to Men for the most part (with certain exceptions). Women would not be allowed to vote. Any intelligent Man is going to take the opinions of his wife into account. He should be the one with the final say, but that's more of a personal issue.

So, basically, it would be like living in Saudi Arabia? Yeah. You and Sunni should create your own society in rural alaska and live like kings with whatever women will have you.

I'm sure he's a wonderful person. The problem is that way too many "men" have allowed these ridiculous social experiments like women's liberation to go far beyond where they ever should have been allowed to. Especially once it became brutally obvious that these things are having dangerously detrimental affects on American Society.

My kids are good citizens. They work hard in school and are generally good people. I fail to see the dangerously detrimental effects of my female liberation. As far as my guy goes, he isn't attracted to unliberated women. He wanted a partner, not a domestic servant.



That's fine, for you. But, when you attempt to enforce your views on larger society, then you can sod off. (In the nicest possible way, of course)



INteresting. I see my partner and I back to back, protecting each other's weak points and prepared to take on the world (both armed, of course).

That is the problem at my end. It is so difficult to even find Traditional women in this part of the country. Most of them belong to exclusive religious organizations or other closed-door groups if they exist at all in the Northeast. Those that do exist tend to be very difficult to locate and you're right that they're not the types to come looking for Men themselves.

I would think that you could find them within a Christian religious congregation, but are you pagan? Pagan girls are few and far between and most are of the fluffy wiccan variation, as you know.

I don't know about that. The priorities and style of life are very different up here and down there. Personally, I prefer the Southern priorities and lifestyle; I just haven't been able to get things in line to get the hell out of here. I'm hoping to be moving to PA in the next year or so which will be a little better; but I'm hoping someday it might be NC or SC or possibly even further into the heart of Dixie. Maybe I'll be the third member of my family to hop on a train to Richmond and never be heard from again. The other two did it in early 1861, loaded down with arms and ammunition to join the Confederate Army.

Meh. Southern reconstructionists.

don't mind the fascist. he has problems with any woman who's equal. he prefers women who are for rent by the hour.

 

[High_Gravity]

I don't know why men would prefer a woman who can't think for herself and just stands there until ordered to do something, I prefer a woman who can think for herself and support herself.

 

[catzmeow]

he prefers women who are for rent by the hour.

Well, they do knock on the door, once you've ordered their services.

 

[catzmeow]

I don't know why men would prefer a woman who can't think for herself and just stands there until ordered to do something, I prefer a woman who can think for herself and support herself.

In some twisted way, I think it's because for a lot of men, their masculinity depends on women. Without that external affirmation from the woman in his life, the guy doesn't feel truly masculine. She has to bow down for him to stand tall.

Guys I've known who are actually comfortable in their own manliness (my dad is a good example; my boyfriend is another) don't have to go around making a big production about how manly they are. They just are.

I think the Ghetto Boys said it best: The more you talk about being a gangsta, the less gangsta you really are.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL9ihXiFAko]YouTube - ‪Geto Boys - Damn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta‬‏[/ame]

 

[Iridescence]

Some women think for themselves in the way they choose to obey more than to not. Some women, as do some men, find it far more productive to have a keeper at home to take care of all the needs of the home and it's environment than to *just not*.

Obviously, it is more about what each clan, sect, group, family finds best suiting and fitting for 'themselves' as a unit than any kind of defined and set agenda for masses in general.

 

[catzmeow]

Some women think for themselves in the way they choose to obey more than to not. Some women, as do some men, find it far more productive to have a keeper at home to take care of all the needs of the home and it's environment than to *just not*.

Obviously, it is more about what each clan, sect, group, family finds best suiting and fitting for 'themselves' as a unit than any kind of defined and set agenda for masses in general.

There are definitely some days when it would be nice to have a "sister wife" at home, so I could come home and relax after work.