Understanding Christianity

[irosie91]

I am seeking the truth, unfortunately, you have none. NEXT!

Not saying this is evidence, but, I'm pointing more to your mockery of Jesus. Why do you insult him and mock him? Just wondering....


Jesus Christ was a historical person about whom many ancient authors wrote. A large number of historical and prophetic facts about Jesus can be found. The Bible also shows that Jesus Christ said He was God. Listen to what the Jewish leaders of Jesus’ day understood Him to say,

The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” (NASB) John 10:33

These Jewish leaders thought He was just a man, but not His followers. The Roman leaders had a different view,

. . . I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He should be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles . . .King Agrippa, do you believe the Prophets? I know that you do. And Agrippa replied to Paul, “In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian. (NASB) Acts 26:22-28

And Jesus’ followers obviously believed He was God.

But why mock them?[/QUOTE]


Bonzi----I will not comment YES or NO------but your argument is truly IDIOTIC in detail by detail

1) you claim that many ancient authors wrote about Jesus whilst he lived----HUH??? WHO?
2) where do you find PROPHECIES specifically about Jesus in the OT?-----descendant of
David? NOPE-----not even that. The author JOHN??? a latter day nut
3) "Jewish leaders at that time thought" what jewish leaders? There is not a single jot
that refers to Jesus from jewish writers at that time-----nothing. You know what "the jewish
leaders because the NT written more than 200 years later SAYS SO?

there are extant writings from that time-----but nothing on Jesus------A very significant body of
writing on those whom jews HATED -------that famous jew ----Caiaphas. You remember him---
the "high priest who killed jesus"-----There is HISTORIC WRITTEN evidence that if the jews
of Jerusalem would be inspired to KILL anyone it would be CAIAPHAS (and, of course ---
Pontius pilate) .......maybe herod too

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You have more evidence than you need (which is none), because you're so desperate to have the bible be true because it gives you comfort. I'm fine with you living in a fantasy world as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else (which religion too often does), but I think you realize this since your pretty feeble attempts to convince anyone including yourself are evident for everyone to see that you have absolutely nothing in way of a proper explanation for your beliefs..

Fire, water, automobiles--too often hurt people. More often, fire, water, automobiles, and religion are of huge help to us.

Taz, you are of the group who wish to view religion from a lower cognitive perspective. This perspective, held by apes and by our early ancestors, could only comprehend the reality of what can be observed through the five senses. A tree is real, so it can be seen. Religion is not real because real cannot be seen. Shelter is real, it can be seen. Home is not real, because the qualities of home cannot be seen. You call the perspective "scientific"--and it it. There is nothing wrong in holding it.

You are arguing against the faithful using a higher cognitive reasoning. Religion is an example of higher cognitive reasoning, as are corporations, laws, homes, etc. You cannot show me a corporation. You can show me its buildings, its stockholders, its legal team, even the piece of paper that brings a corporation into existence, but you cannot point to anything and say, "This is corporation."

Religion functions in much the same way. As with corporations, we can certainly see the byproducts of religion, but we cannot actually see the concept itself. As you see, believers and unbelievers have such a hard time with these discussions because our approach to them are from two very different plains or positions.

You, Weatherman, and I hold three very different positions. You are in the lower cognitive position (there is no denigrating here by saying "lower", it states the position of cognitive it does NOT place you and your beliefs is an inferior position. While both Weatherman and I are both thinking from the higher cognitive position (again "higher" does NOT denote superiority) our perspectives are very different.

Weatherman, like you, reads scripture as a modern day factual news report. While you find all the inconsistencies and improbabilities in what you read as a factual news report and then guffaw and make a parody of it all, Weatherman believes the facts are literally true. I know that ancient man did not write factual news reports. They told (that were much later put into writing) stories that painted vivid pictures and taught a lesson. The Hebrew language can be described as a lower cognitive language because it uses an objective language. English is subjective. When "angry" is translated into Hebrew, the actual English words would re-translate back as "flaring nostrils."

Therefore, I find myself often at odds with both you and Weatherman. I don't agree with you that the whole thing is made up fiction--and I don't agree with Weatherman that scripture reads as a factual news report whose every word is verifiably, literally true. The lessons it teaches are true; the basic sketch of the settings (a pair of every animal) may not include every animal on the entire planet, only those within Noah's reach.

First of all, a corporation is made up of shareholders, go to a shareholders' meeting and you can say that the people in the room are the corporation. As well, go to their head office, that also is part of the corporation.

Secondly, you have to move the goalposts to make anything in the bible true, as you interpret it in your own way (regional flood, when nowhere does it say that, and anyways, no geological proof of such a flood), no kind of reasonable proof needed. Nor is your reasoning sound as nothing you say follows each other to arrive at something where a layman could say "hey, maybe she's got something".

As for your constant air of superiority with your higher and lower cognitive languages... is also without foundation, i.e., you live in a fantasy world, nothing more, nothing less. And you haven't shown anything more, now THAT'S a fact!

No evidence of a global flood? How do you explain marine fossils found at the tops of mountains?

Plate tectonics, of course. Have you ever taken a single science course? I mean no offense, but you are asking questions that 8th graders can answer.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I have more evidence than I needed to change my belief 180 degrees from where you are at today and to what I believe now. Let me know when you're desire is to seek truth, no matter how crazy it may seem at first.

You have more evidence than you need (which is none), because you're so desperate to have the bible be true because it gives you comfort. I'm fine with you living in a fantasy world as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else (which religion too often does), but I think you realize this since your pretty feeble attempts to convince anyone including yourself are evident for everyone to see that you have absolutely nothing in way of a proper explanation for your beliefs..

Whether you think it highly unlikely that God exists, or whether you just have not been presented with proof you consider sufficient, you are doing the same thing: adopting a belief without certain proof.

In other words, you are exercising faith.

No, I'm looking for proof to decide one way or the other (agnostic). So far, there's no proof for or against the possibility of a god. No faith needed.

If there is no God, then how do you explain the existence of...anything? Where did it come from?

They believe atoms have some kind of advantage by becoming a living creature. Never mind those same atoms always go back into the earth when we die.

"They believe atoms have some kind of advantage by becoming a living creature."

And you believe that eating your own poop gives you superpowers. See what fun we can have when we all lie about each other?

 

[irosie91]

Meriweather------I have some interest in the Hebrew Language------the word for "angry" in Hebrew---
TRANSLATES into English as "FLARING NOSTRILS"? ??? --------the word is approximately
KHA OS. Which is the "flaring" and which is the "nostrils"?. My resident expert---in both modern
and biblical Hebrew ---has NO IDEA!!!!!

 

[Boss]

Haven't read this entire thread but I saw it and wanted to weigh in with my two cents. I am not a Christian, I am a Spiritualist. I believe in a Spiritual Energy which I will often refer to as "God." My God is completely different from the Christian or Abrahamic God. Most notably, it doesn't possess humanistic characteristics like love, hate, anger, desire, compassion, forgiveness, empathy, jealousy, etc. It doesn't have needs because, why would it? An omnipotent and omniscient force doesn't need human attributes. It simply exists as a force, like electricity or nuclear energy, only it has a quality we can describe as "intelligence" but that's really not an adequate word for it. Omniscience sort of supercedes intelligence. It is our Creator and the Creator of all life as well as all physics.

The only thing Spiritual Energy did not create is it's negative counterpart. We recognize that as "Evil." It too is a Spiritual Energy force, albeit a much weaker one. In spite of it's weakness, it still poses a serious problem for the positive flow of Spiritual Energy. These two Spiritual Energy forces are constantly working on our spirits or what we call our "souls."

Of course, the thread topic is "Understanding Christianity" and so let's shift gears a little and get to that. Organized religions are evidence that humans have Spirituality, that we are spiritually connected to something greater than self. Our full and complete understanding of this Nature is beyond our comprehension as mortal human beings. It should be apparent, our secret to survival as a species lies in our ability to form civilizations. The strongest civilizations rest on the preponderance of the group being on the same proverbial page, relatively speaking. Thus, we have the basis and need for mutual and structurally organized spiritual thought which results in theocratic dogma known as "religion."

As religions go, Christianity is fairly peaceful and benign. Some will inevitably point to The Crusades as evidence it's not but if you've studied the history, you understand that this was a response by man in the name of Christianity, to a social injustice of the time. With any religion, there is always the risk of exploitation or misguided intentions. Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate, David Koresh, Constantine. These are not flaws with Christianity but rather, flaws with man. That's not to say Christianity's incarnations of God are correct. Man is fallible and so are his religions.

Still, when I objectively evaluate the teachings of Jesus, I find nothing to hate. I have never understood the vitriol over his message of pure love. You don't have to believe he was the "living Son of God" to understand his philosophy was profound. It's fascinating to think, when Aristotle and Plato were contemplating man's wisdom, they had heard the story of Moses and Noah. Newton and Galileo knew about Jesus and his teachings. Even before Jesus there were the stories of Abraham and others. So this history goes WAY back, it's not something some 20th century wacko just dreamed up. Yet it's summarily dismissed as such all the time and it's usually by people who haven't got enough sense or intelligence to fill a thimble.

On the flip side of the coin, a friend of mine who is a devout Christian was complaining to me that all these anti-Christian bigots are out there bashing his religious views and threatening his religious liberty. I pointed out to him that his own Bible tells him this will be the case! You're going to be persecuted! That's the price you pay and the burden you bear as a Christian. It's nothing to complain about, it's to be expected.

 

[irosie91]

take out your GOLDEN BOOKS OF HISTORY FAIRY TALES and review-----hint--Aristotle and
Plato both preceded Jesus. As to the "teachings of Jesus" Jesus, himself----left no writings.
Jesus would have been familiar with a bit of Aristotle and Plato since both show up in bits
and pieces in the Talmud and their stuff was part of the popular chat amongst the Pharisees of
Judea at that time. For some really interesting insights------check out the religious views of sir
Isaac Newton

 

[Boss]

take out your GOLDEN BOOKS OF HISTORY FAIRY TALES and review-----hint--Aristotle and
Plato both preceded Jesus. As to the "teachings of Jesus" Jesus, himself----left no writings.
Jesus would have been familiar with a bit of Aristotle and Plato since both show up in bits
and pieces in the Talmud and their stuff was part of the popular chat amongst the Pharisees of
Judea at that time. For some really interesting insights------check out the religious views of sir
Isaac Newton

Yes, I had to do some editing there.

No doubt that Jesus may have drawn from Aristotle and Plato. As for Newton, many people don't realize he spent a large portion of his later life writing what would become Protestant doctrine. He certainly believed there was a "mercurial spirit" coursing through our universe.

 

[irosie91]

take out your GOLDEN BOOKS OF HISTORY FAIRY TALES and review-----hint--Aristotle and
Plato both preceded Jesus. As to the "teachings of Jesus" Jesus, himself----left no writings.
Jesus would have been familiar with a bit of Aristotle and Plato since both show up in bits
and pieces in the Talmud and their stuff was part of the popular chat amongst the Pharisees of
Judea at that time. For some really interesting insights------check out the religious views of sir
Isaac Newton

Yes, I had to do some editing there.

No doubt that Jesus may have drawn from Aristotle and Plato. As for Newton, many people don't realize he spent a large portion of his later life writing what would become Protestant doctrine. He certainly believed there was a "mercurial spirit" coursing through our universe.

I doubt very strongly that Jesus drew anything from either Plato or Aristotle------but there is no way
of knowing-----he left no writings. As for Newton-----nope---he did not write what would become
the notions of Martin Luther. It is reasonable to say that what he wrote would be consistent
with some ideas expressed out of the minds of later protestant scholars

 

[BreezeWood]

I pointed out to him that his own Bible tells him this will be the case! You're going to be persecuted!

there in lies the problem, the 4th century book does not include the desired final Judgement where Good triumphs over evil in that case there will not be persecution for anyone ... and it is the false religion of christianity that has from that time to the present been the persecutors without a single moment in recorded history where they have reflected the true will of the Almighty.

 

[JohnPrewett]

"CHURCH" according to the NT means the people who belong to Jesus Christ. "His" people. Book of Acts reveals The Church.
A GREAT deception took place in 380ad.
The Roman Emperor empowered a religious group whose binding doctrine was Trinitarianism ....
and
this Trinitarian group claimed to be "The Church"
and
the Roman establishment [bunch of assorted Pagans] claimed this newly empowered CULT was "The Church."

So from 380ad onward, the worldly have been deceived as to who and where and what is "The Church".

All the modern christianish “churches” [“cults, denominations”] evolved from the imitation “church” empowered by the Roman Empire in 380ad.

The foundation the Church rest upon is the confession Peter made …. Not Peter personally. Much NT scripture shows the one and only head of Jesus’s Church is Jesus. Papist and Trinitarians don’t believe scripture. They believe various interpretations of scripture … and that is not the same as believing/heeding scripture.

Famous example of putting interpretation of scripture over scripture: “call no man father”

Roman Catholicism will give you scads of interpretive pretext to NOT heed the simple “call no man father”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_chur...man_Empire

"Nicene "Trinitarian" Christianity became the state church of the Roman Empire with the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 CE,
when Emperor Theodosius I made it the Empire's sole authorized religion"

 

[Taz]

"CHURCH" according to the NT means the people who belong to Jesus Christ. "His" people. Book of Acts reveals The Church.
A GREAT deception took place in 380ad.
The Roman Emperor empowered a religious group whose binding doctrine was Trinitarianism ....
and
this Trinitarian group claimed to be "The Church"
and
the Roman establishment [bunch of assorted Pagans] claimed this newly empowered CULT was "The Church."

So from 380ad onward, the worldly have been deceived as to who and where and what is "The Church".

All the modern christianish “churches” [“cults, denominations”] evolved from the imitation “church” empowered by the Roman Empire in 380ad.

The foundation the Church rest upon is the confession Peter made …. Not Peter personally. Much NT scripture shows the one and only head of Jesus’s Church is Jesus. Papist and Trinitarians don’t believe scripture. They believe various interpretations of scripture … and that is not the same as believing/heeding scripture.

Famous example of putting interpretation of scripture over scripture: “call no man father”

Roman Catholicism will give you scads of interpretive pretext to NOT heed the simple “call no man father”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_chur...man_Empire

"Nicene "Trinitarian" Christianity became the state church of the Roman Empire with the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 CE,
when Emperor Theodosius I made it the Empire's sole authorized religion"

If you believe scripture, how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia and back again?

 

[JohnPrewett]

"CHURCH" according to the NT means the people who belong to Jesus Christ. "His" people. Book of Acts reveals The Church.
A GREAT deception took place in 380ad.
The Roman Emperor empowered a religious group whose binding doctrine was Trinitarianism ....
and
this Trinitarian group claimed to be "The Church"
and
the Roman establishment [bunch of assorted Pagans] claimed this newly empowered CULT was "The Church."

So from 380ad onward, the worldly have been deceived as to who and where and what is "The Church".

All the modern christianish “churches” [“cults, denominations”] evolved from the imitation “church” empowered by the Roman Empire in 380ad.

The foundation the Church rest upon is the confession Peter made …. Not Peter personally. Much NT scripture shows the one and only head of Jesus’s Church is Jesus. Papist and Trinitarians don’t believe scripture. They believe various interpretations of scripture … and that is not the same as believing/heeding scripture.

Famous example of putting interpretation of scripture over scripture: “call no man father”

Roman Catholicism will give you scads of interpretive pretext to NOT heed the simple “call no man father”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_chur...man_Empire

"Nicene "Trinitarian" Christianity became the state church of the Roman Empire with the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 CE,
when Emperor Theodosius I made it the Empire's sole authorized religion"

If you believe scripture, how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia and back again?

Since I believe scripture, I know God can do things we humans can't do. Like transport a kangaroo from here to there and back in the blink of an eye.

 

[Taz]

"CHURCH" according to the NT means the people who belong to Jesus Christ. "His" people. Book of Acts reveals The Church.
A GREAT deception took place in 380ad.
The Roman Emperor empowered a religious group whose binding doctrine was Trinitarianism ....
and
this Trinitarian group claimed to be "The Church"
and
the Roman establishment [bunch of assorted Pagans] claimed this newly empowered CULT was "The Church."

So from 380ad onward, the worldly have been deceived as to who and where and what is "The Church".

All the modern christianish “churches” [“cults, denominations”] evolved from the imitation “church” empowered by the Roman Empire in 380ad.

The foundation the Church rest upon is the confession Peter made …. Not Peter personally. Much NT scripture shows the one and only head of Jesus’s Church is Jesus. Papist and Trinitarians don’t believe scripture. They believe various interpretations of scripture … and that is not the same as believing/heeding scripture.

Famous example of putting interpretation of scripture over scripture: “call no man father”

Roman Catholicism will give you scads of interpretive pretext to NOT heed the simple “call no man father”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_chur...man_Empire

"Nicene "Trinitarian" Christianity became the state church of the Roman Empire with the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 CE,
when Emperor Theodosius I made it the Empire's sole authorized religion"

If you believe scripture, how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia and back again?

Since I believe scripture, I know God can do things we humans can't do. Like transport a kangaroo from here to there and back in the blink of an eye.

Oh, so you live in a fantasy world. That must be fun. I hope the meds are helping.

 

[The Irish Ram]

"CHURCH" according to the NT means the people who belong to Jesus Christ. "His" people. Book of Acts reveals The Church.
A GREAT deception took place in 380ad.
The Roman Emperor empowered a religious group whose binding doctrine was Trinitarianism ....
and
this Trinitarian group claimed to be "The Church"
and
the Roman establishment [bunch of assorted Pagans] claimed this newly empowered CULT was "The Church."

So from 380ad onward, the worldly have been deceived as to who and where and what is "The Church".

All the modern christianish “churches” [“cults, denominations”] evolved from the imitation “church” empowered by the Roman Empire in 380ad.

The foundation the Church rest upon is the confession Peter made …. Not Peter personally. Much NT scripture shows the one and only head of Jesus’s Church is Jesus. Papist and Trinitarians don’t believe scripture. They believe various interpretations of scripture … and that is not the same as believing/heeding scripture.

Famous example of putting interpretation of scripture over scripture: “call no man father”

Roman Catholicism will give you scads of interpretive pretext to NOT heed the simple “call no man father”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_chur...man_Empire

"Nicene "Trinitarian" Christianity became the state church of the Roman Empire with the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 CE,
when Emperor Theodosius I made it the Empire's sole authorized religion"

If you believe scripture, how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia and back again?

Adam didn't. God did. And what makes you think roos started out in Australia?

 

[Taz]

"CHURCH" according to the NT means the people who belong to Jesus Christ. "His" people. Book of Acts reveals The Church.
A GREAT deception took place in 380ad.
The Roman Emperor empowered a religious group whose binding doctrine was Trinitarianism ....
and
this Trinitarian group claimed to be "The Church"
and
the Roman establishment [bunch of assorted Pagans] claimed this newly empowered CULT was "The Church."

So from 380ad onward, the worldly have been deceived as to who and where and what is "The Church".

All the modern christianish “churches” [“cults, denominations”] evolved from the imitation “church” empowered by the Roman Empire in 380ad.

The foundation the Church rest upon is the confession Peter made …. Not Peter personally. Much NT scripture shows the one and only head of Jesus’s Church is Jesus. Papist and Trinitarians don’t believe scripture. They believe various interpretations of scripture … and that is not the same as believing/heeding scripture.

Famous example of putting interpretation of scripture over scripture: “call no man father”

Roman Catholicism will give you scads of interpretive pretext to NOT heed the simple “call no man father”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_chur...man_Empire

"Nicene "Trinitarian" Christianity became the state church of the Roman Empire with the Edict of Thessalonica in 380 CE,
when Emperor Theodosius I made it the Empire's sole authorized religion"

If you believe scripture, how did Noah get kangaroos from Australia and back again?

Adam didn't. God did. And what makes you think roos started out in Australia?

So it was an act of magic from an invisible superbeing? Got any proof?

 

[The Irish Ram]

So it was an act of magic from an invisible superbeing? Got any proof?

Not magic. Biology.
He is also responsible for Physics, that our mathematicians keep discovering.
The dimensions our scientists think they have found..
Funny thing about those dimensions, God said that we should know He exists by reading Genesis.
Maimonides took Him up on it and discovered that there are at least 10 dimensions. 4 seen, 6 unseen. That man died in 1204.
Speed ahead to the 20th century where our brightest and best scientists have concluded that there are at least 10 dimensions. 4 seen, 6 unseen. And I loved this. Science thinks those six may be rolled up or something.
God said that dimensions can be burned up, torn, rolled up.
Who knew....

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

So it was an act of magic from an invisible superbeing? Got any proof?

Not magic. Biology.
He is also responsible for Physics, that our mathematicians keep discovering.
The dimensions our scientists think they have found..
Funny thing about those dimensions, God said that we should know He exists by reading Genesis.
Maimonides took Him up on it and discovered that there are at least 10 dimensions. 4 seen, 6 unseen. That man died in 1204.
Speed ahead to the 20th century where our brightest and best scientists have concluded that there are at least 10 dimensions. 4 seen, 6 unseen. And I loved this. Science thinks those six may be rolled up or something.
God said that dimensions can be burned up, torn, rolled up.
Who knew....

"Not magic. Biology.
He is also responsible for Physics, that our mathematicians keep discovering. "


So, are you talking about a "clockwork god"? He set the top a-spinnin', and is watching it? either the universe is deterministic, or it is not.

 

[ChrisL]

It's kind of humorous if you think about it. Oh we found out God isn't the cause of this event, it is because of this. And the religious folks will say, because god. God is behind everything that happens is what they think. Every new thing we discover that obliterates something that the Bible has taught, they have an excuse for. Lol.

 

[Taz]

So it was an act of magic from an invisible superbeing? Got any proof?

Not magic. Biology.
He is also responsible for Physics, that our mathematicians keep discovering.
The dimensions our scientists think they have found..
Funny thing about those dimensions, God said that we should know He exists by reading Genesis.
Maimonides took Him up on it and discovered that there are at least 10 dimensions. 4 seen, 6 unseen. That man died in 1204.
Speed ahead to the 20th century where our brightest and best scientists have concluded that there are at least 10 dimensions. 4 seen, 6 unseen. And I loved this. Science thinks those six may be rolled up or something.
God said that dimensions can be burned up, torn, rolled up.
Who knew....

God didn't write the bible so god said absolutely nothing.

 

[Hawkins]

Water covering the tops of mountains is just a little hyperbole that tries to convey the magnitude of the partial extinction event. In scripture "the mountains of Israel" also refers to the big shots of the community. Therefore, water covering their highest mountain could also indicate that all the well heeled big shots drowned. 10 feet of water would have done the trick, especially among desert dwellers who probably couldn't swim for a minute much less a month.. They really didn't need to exaggerate much.

That remains your own interpretation. No one knows what Noah saw to tell that it's actually a hyperbole. Sincere witnessing is demanded from God to the Jews. So it's possible that Noah just described what he saw for the later Moses to write it down with confirmation from God.

That said, and equal assumption can still be that it's something humans don't know.