"Uninsured" What uninsured??

[The Rabbi]

Good. You've recognized I'm right. Thanks for the additional information. Live long and prosper.

 

[Common Sense]

Good. You've recognized I'm right. Thanks for the additional information. Live long and prosper.

go ahead and believe that you are right. facts are facts and your argument contains none.

 

[daveman]

But...but...but it's for the children!!! Why do you hate children?!! /Statist mode

The pre-existing condition rules kicked in for children 6 months after the bill was passed. So, again, as usual, as always,

you have no idea what you're talking about.

Actually, you proved me right.

 

[hortysir]

So, by your reasoning, Wal-Mart, Ford, HP, CVS, and IBM should all be regulated by big gov't since they all rank higher than UHC.

since none of these companies provide a product that is potentially life saving, no. it is a detrimental system to let health care providers earn these ridiculous profits. As i stated earlier, think about how much your premium would be reduced if they were required to reinvest their profits back into the company, say in the same way Kaiser does. (This is one of a few reasons Kaiser can keep its costs lower thank most, as they are a non profit - you can argue about the way they implement their care, but they are great at controlling costs) as long as they dont have any regulations on them, they will continue to raise their premiums in order to keep the profits levels up. Even without health care reform, our costs will still rise.

you do realize that insurance companies profit from taking in premiums and not paying out expenses. accounting 101. money in less money out = profit. (or for a more technical answer - The positive gain from an investment or business operation after subtracting for all expenses. opposite of loss) now, when HC providers are deemed to be for profit enterprises, they are allowed to mark up their product to create profits which benefit owners, shareholders or the value of the company.

A non-profit organization, is an organization that does not distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders, but instead uses them to help pursue its goals. hence, they must reinvest all profits (that are not paid out in the way of salaries, bonuses, business expenses) back into the company. hence the term "non profit". health care insurers and providers are some of the most profitable companies in america. and they are allowed to be publicly traded. (United Health Care AETNA, CIGNA etc) thus they have to show a profit to investors otherwise their share price plummets and the company loses money. this one is counterintuitive to providing health care. when you have a fixed amount of dollars coming in, because you provide a contract services, there are only 3 ways to increase profits. 1) cut your costs 2) reduce your liabilities. 3)increase your contacts. lets throw out #3 for arguments sake and say you are not able to increase the number of contracts for a given period of time. that leaves you with 2 options, cut costs or reduce liabilities. well the biggest liability a HC provider has the cost of patient care. so in order to reduce your liability there you have to cut services or deny services. its basic math. what if insurance and health care providers had to pump billions of dollars back into the system for patient care and cost reduction. wow, i just single handedly lower out of pocket costs for everyone........... (not that this will ever happen tho)



and btw, Ford is regulated the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. They have minimum crash test rules and guidelines that they must follow.

CVS makes most of its money out of prescription drugs, also regulated by the FDA

Wal-Mart actually refuses to offer health care to part time workers and makes it difficult for employees to unionize. (fortunately with the new health care bill, they will be forced to take some of their profits and help their employee obtain health care)

there are also plenty of banks (chase, wells fargo, bank of america) on the list above UHS, they are also regulated by the government as well due to the risks they took that led to the market collapse. yet just a few years ago they begged the government to bail them out so they wouldnt have had to file bankruptcy

the oil industry is heavily regulated as well (remember the BP oil spill that the tax payers are on the hook for because of the deregulation of lack of liability that BP has against oil spills?)

i fail to see your point in picking and choosing a few companies who you say make huge profits and asking if we should regulate them, because most of them we actually do for consumer safety.

Are you sore from all that contorting?
Fact remains that we aren't required, by an act of Congress, to purchase products from CVS, Ford, et.al....
While I'm required to purchase auto insurance if I choose to buy a car, I can't be convinced that it's in my legislative branch's authority to require me to purchase health insurance with the only pre-requisite being my birth.

 

[MorganIPS]

I think this thread points out the true problem in the system. It doesn't have all that much to do with health care. Once these arguments begin the divide gets further and further, then pride becomes a factor. People start arguing not allowing to concede a single point on any basis or compromise on anything. All decisions become polarized extremes and progress changes from making actual universal progress to winning the eternal political tug of war game.

 

[auditor0007]

Here are a couple of things to think about. First off, I don't know what the total numbers are for enrollment. I do know that in Ohio, there was no high risk pool until this legislation took effect. I am now one person who is able and has purchased health insurance under through the new high risk pool in Ohio. And I don't get it at any price I want. It is costing me $392 per month, which I find to be fairly reasonable, and that comes with a $2500 deductible, then 80/20 with a maximum out of pocket of around $5000. So my maximum out of pocket including premiums is $9704 per year, and that is just for me, not my kids who have separate policies.

Now, let's discuss something else. If so few people are jumping on board, then why are the insurance companies complaining? And why are they suggesting that rate increases are due to them having to provide insurance to so few people with pre-existing conditions? Do they really need to increase everyone's rates by double digit percentages due to one person in North Dakota, four in W. Virginia, 15 in Minnesota, or even 393 in Texas? Come on, do the math. They're pulling one over on everyone again, just like they have for years.

Here's another bit of news for you. Unless I have something catastrophic happen, I will never hit my deductible, so they'll never end up paying for anything other than a doctor visit a couple times per year. They'll actually make money off of me, yet I am uninsurable?

But I do agree that they have all of this wrong. If they ever plan on reducing costs from both the providers and the insurance companies, there is only one way to do that. That is to change the law requiring businesses to provide health insurance to their employees. Get employers out of healthcare and make people purchase their own insurance. You see, most people have no idea how much health insurance really costs. The only concern they have is the amount they have to pay. If every American that wanted insurance had to pay the full amount on their own, then you would see some real competition. And you would see providers scrambling to reduce costs everywhere they could to stay competetive. By making employers responsible for healthcare, we have reduced competition to nearly zero. And the insurance companies have no interest in trying to make providers reduce costs, because the more providers charge, the more the insurance companies can charge, and that increases profits. It doesn't increase margins, but it increases the profits based on a much larger volume.

 

[Common Sense]

I think this thread points out the true problem in the system. It doesn't have all that much to do with health care. Once these arguments begin the divide gets further and further, then pride becomes a factor. People start arguing not allowing to concede a single point on any basis or compromise on anything. All decisions become polarized extremes and progress changes from making actual universal progress to winning the eternal political tug of war game.

i can concede a point here. if your biggest problem here is that you dont want to be mandated to buy insurance i think you should have to sign a waiver that says you agree and take full financial responsibility to pay all medical costs incurred for any treatments you receive. no discounts, no payment plans, no subsidies. real actual costs. so if you or any of your family members have appendicitis, then you can pay the $12,500 average surgery costs up front, or you dont receive services. (and possibly die) same thing with going in to see a doctor for a check up. you can pay his hourly rate (up front again) which usually starts around $100 / hour and rises from there depending on his specialty. if you "choose" to decline coverage (i mean choose, not have the inability top pay) then you choose to gamble with your life. if you break a leg and can not pay to have it reset and cast, oh well too bad. no drugs, no medical coverage. nothing. well lets go even further. lets say you happen to subject to an act of random violence, and get shot in a drive by or similar type event. the ambulance shows up and finds out you signed a waiver, so they dont have to treat you unless you can pay. where does it stop? sounds cruel doesnt it?

is this the civil or humane way to do things? your life is only as valuable as your ability to pay to keep it alive? yet, there are also people who believe that abortion is heinous and life is sacred. so lets apply that argument here. if the right believe that if you get pregnant (in many cases even through rape and incest) that its not the childs fault, you should still be required by law to have and either care for this child or put it up for adoption. whether you are pro life or pro choice, isnt my argument here, it is simply that whos life is worth more? if we go down this path, we begin to put a dollar amount on human life.



and what contorting i have been doing. i am simply stating facts (the amount of money that managed health care companies make - $3.8 billion) and why i disagree with them being able to make such ridiculous amount. like i said, when you provide a potentially life saving service, you should not be able to profit. (take the kaiser approach) become a non profits. you get tax exemption status as well, thus saving even more money that is going to go back into the system. you tell me why managed health care companies have a right to charge whatever they want in order to simply continue to raise the bottom line? they increase their revenues by increasing premiums and paying out less in the way of services. who benefits from that other than share holders and executive?

 

[The Rabbi]

Your posts are filled with inaccurate bullshit.

 

[Common Sense]

Your posts are filled with inaccurate bullshit.

fantastic argument. are you just not wanting to be mandated to purchase insurance, or are you upset with the idea of being denied care should you choose to sign the waiver?

(and i can provide proof for every dollar amount and statistic stated in all my posts, can you?)

 

[SFC Ollie]

Your posts are filled with inaccurate bullshit.

fantastic argument. are you just not wanting to be mandated to purchase insurance, or are you upset with the idea of being denied care should you choose to sign the waiver?

(and i can provide proof for every dollar amount and statistic stated in all my posts, can you?)

Add this statistic, What is the profit percentage that the insurance companies make, compared to the local Taco Bell's?

 

[Common Sense]

Your posts are filled with inaccurate bullshit.

fantastic argument. are you just not wanting to be mandated to purchase insurance, or are you upset with the idea of being denied care should you choose to sign the waiver?

(and i can provide proof for every dollar amount and statistic stated in all my posts, can you?)

Add this statistic, What is the profit percentage that the insurance companies make, compared to the local Taco Bell's?

are you asking what their profit margins are? or what their profit dollars are? there is a difference. as i posted before, even some of the most profitable companies less than a 10% return on revenue. these are profits, not profit margins. what that simply means is the for every dollar that passes through the company, after all expenses are paid they return 10 cents in pure profit. profit margins are the percentage you mark up a product (typically 25%-40%) in order to cover your costs. (rents, insurance, utilities, taxes, salaries etc etc)

and a comparison of these two companies is not an accurate comparison. you are talking about a company that takes in billions of dollars a year, vs. a company who takes in a few hundred thousand.

you need to compare two companies of similar size and similar structure. but i can provide you with something closer (taco bell is a private company, so their revenues and profits are not public knowledge)

although McDonalds is publicly traded and here are their stats:

Global 500 2010: Companies - M - FORTUNE on CNNMoney.com

with approx 31,000 McDonalds world wide, if you take their profits of $4,551,000,000 on revenues $22,745,000,000 if you simply divide these profts by the 31,000 locations (not a completely accurate analysis, but for argument sake it gives us an average) each McDonald profits $145,806.45.

now on the other hand, United Health Care (the largest provider) had profits of $3,800,000,000 on revenues of $52,920,000,000.

Global 500 2010: Companies - U - FORTUNE on CNNMoney.com

now since UHS has to pay doctors, not burger flippers one can only expect them have a much higher overhead costs. hence why they have twice the revenues but only 85% of the of the profits of McDonalds.

i do not know what the profit margins of either of these two companies is, because companies do not release this information, all i have to go on is what is publicly available.

 

[The Rabbi]

More bullshit.
Why not compare the profit margins to Apple? Or to Chinese fireworks manufacturers? Or anything else?
It's bullshit. It doesn't matter what their profit margins are. It doesn't matter what their gross or net profits are.
From the time I was 18 til I was 35 I saw a doctor probably twice. All the money I spent on health insurance was a waste. If someone wants to make that decision and not buy it, or buy simply a catastrophic policy, it ought to be his right.
Tell you what, ColonScent, either agree to government guidelines on healthy eating or pledge to give up any claim stemming from eating.

 

[Common Sense]

More bullshit.
Why not compare the profit margins to Apple? Or to Chinese fireworks manufacturers? Or anything else?
It's bullshit. It doesn't matter what their profit margins are. It doesn't matter what their gross or net profits are.
From the time I was 18 til I was 35 I saw a doctor probably twice. All the money I spent on health insurance was a waste. If someone wants to make that decision and not buy it, or buy simply a catastrophic policy, it ought to be his right.
Tell you what, ColonScent, either agree to government guidelines on healthy eating or pledge to give up any claim stemming from eating.

more anger and BS coming from your mouth. you still post no valid argument to making HC providers non profits. its hard for you to admit stupidity isnt it?

and its your own damn fault you went to the doctor 2 times in 17 years.

hahaha ColonScent. is that the best you can do? call me name and made worthless threats. this coming from guy who calls himself "The Rabbi?" Way to look ignorant in your representation of the Jewish faith.

someone asked for the stats and i provided them. you provide nothing but baseless opinions on this matter.

you cant even agree with my waiver program, which is in direct response to you not wanting to be forced to buy insurance. so sign the waiver, but if you cant pay, then you get denied at the door. plain and simple.

 

[SFC Ollie]

I'm looking at something more like a Profit Margin for Health insurance companies of 3.3%

REIT Health care facilities of 24.6%

CARPE DIEM: Profit Margin: Health Insurance Industry Ranks #86

Seems to me the insurance industry makes pennies while others make dollars. They simply do a lot more pennies.

But I could be wrong, just seems 3% ain't so much.

 

[Common Sense]

I'm looking at something more like a Profit Margin for Health insurance companies of 3.3%

REIT Health care facilities of 24.6%

CARPE DIEM: Profit Margin: Health Insurance Industry Ranks #86

Seems to me the insurance industry makes pennies while others make dollars. They simply do a lot more pennies.

But I could be wrong, just seems 3% ain't so much.

#14 sorry, i trust CNN more than an economists personal blog. although they end up having roughly the same number.

Global 500 2009: Top Performers - Most Profitable Industries: Return on Revenues - FORTUNE on CNNMoney.com

plus your post only takes hospitals into account, not all managed health care facilities.

you are confusing profit margins with markups and profits. Margins are what individual goods are marked up. say 25%. profits are the actual dollars you earn in your pocket after all expenses are paid. (ie rent, utilities, insurance, taxes, salaries) look at my post. even some of the most profitable industries show profits of less than 20%. think of it this way tho, if you run a business and for every dollar that you take in, after paying every expense you have, you make 10 cents on the dollar, youre doing pretty well. my father had a small business that had gross revenues of around $350,000 annually. he had returned 10%, then after paying everyone and everything, he should have had $35,000 in the bank. he did not though. he marked up his products an average of 40%, but his net return at the end of the year was somewhere near 5% or $17,500. so he grew his business by 5% and "profited" $17,500. thats not all that bad. $17,500 in his pocket. his annual salary was around $60,000. which means if he had taken home all of the profits as his bonus, his bonus would have been 30%.

hope this helps clear up confusion.

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm looking at something more like a Profit Margin for Health insurance companies of 3.3%

REIT Health care facilities of 24.6%

CARPE DIEM: Profit Margin: Health Insurance Industry Ranks #86

Seems to me the insurance industry makes pennies while others make dollars. They simply do a lot more pennies.

But I could be wrong, just seems 3% ain't so much.

#14 sorry, i trust CNN more than an economists personal blog. although they end up having roughly the same number.

Global 500 2009: Top Performers - Most Profitable Industries: Return on Revenues - FORTUNE on CNNMoney.com

plus your post only takes hospitals into account, not all managed health care facilities.

you are confusing profit margins with markups and profits. Margins are what individual goods are marked up. say 25%. profits are the actual dollars you earn in your pocket after all expenses are paid. (ie rent, utilities, insurance, taxes, salaries) look at my post. even some of the most profitable industries show profits of less than 20%. think of it this way tho, if you run a business and for every dollar that you take in, after paying every expense you have, you make 10 cents on the dollar, youre doing pretty well. my father had a small business that had gross revenues of around $350,000 annually. he had returned 10%, then after paying everyone and everything, he should have had $35,000 in the bank. he did not though. he marked up his products an average of 40%, but his net return at the end of the year was somewhere near 5% or $17,500. so he grew his business by 5% and "profited" $17,500. thats not all that bad. $17,500 in his pocket. his annual salary was around $60,000. which means if he had taken home all of the profits as his bonus, his bonus would have been 30%.

hope this helps clear up confusion.

It clears up that you don't have a fucking clue. Your explanation of margin is absurdly wrong. Not to mention irrelevant.

 

[Common Sense]

I'm looking at something more like a Profit Margin for Health insurance companies of 3.3%

REIT Health care facilities of 24.6%

CARPE DIEM: Profit Margin: Health Insurance Industry Ranks #86

Seems to me the insurance industry makes pennies while others make dollars. They simply do a lot more pennies.

But I could be wrong, just seems 3% ain't so much.

#14 sorry, i trust CNN more than an economists personal blog. although they end up having roughly the same number.

Global 500 2009: Top Performers - Most Profitable Industries: Return on Revenues - FORTUNE on CNNMoney.com

plus your post only takes hospitals into account, not all managed health care facilities.

you are confusing profit margins with markups and profits. Margins are what individual goods are marked up. say 25%. profits are the actual dollars you earn in your pocket after all expenses are paid. (ie rent, utilities, insurance, taxes, salaries) look at my post. even some of the most profitable industries show profits of less than 20%. think of it this way tho, if you run a business and for every dollar that you take in, after paying every expense you have, you make 10 cents on the dollar, youre doing pretty well. my father had a small business that had gross revenues of around $350,000 annually. he had returned 10%, then after paying everyone and everything, he should have had $35,000 in the bank. he did not though. he marked up his products an average of 40%, but his net return at the end of the year was somewhere near 5% or $17,500. so he grew his business by 5% and "profited" $17,500. thats not all that bad. $17,500 in his pocket. his annual salary was around $60,000. which means if he had taken home all of the profits as his bonus, his bonus would have been 30%.

hope this helps clear up confusion.

It clears up that you don't have a fucking clue. Your explanation of margin is absurdly wrong. Not to mention irrelevant.

you do a great job of criticizing without ever actually adding anything of use to this conversation. doesnt your ignorance bother you?


Definition of Profit:

The positive gain from an investment or business operation after subtracting for all expenses. opposite of loss.

Definition of Markup:

the amount added to the cost to determine the asking price

Definition of Margin:

gross profit: (finance) the net sales minus the cost of goods and services sold

i do concede my post should have said the following:

"Markups are what individual goods are marked up. say 25%" not margins
but margins and profits are not the same.

now add something useful to the conversation, or crawl back into your double wide and shut it. you are like most of the idiots who can only criticize without actually adding anything of use to this conversation.

 

[The Infidel]

More bullshit.
Why not compare the profit margins to Apple? Or to Chinese fireworks manufacturers? Or anything else?
It's bullshit. It doesn't matter what their profit margins are. It doesn't matter what their gross or net profits are.
From the time I was 18 til I was 35 I saw a doctor probably twice. All the money I spent on health insurance was a waste. If someone wants to make that decision and not buy it, or buy simply a catastrophic policy, it ought to be his right.
Tell you what, ColonScent, either agree to government guidelines on healthy eating or pledge to give up any claim stemming from eating.

more anger and BS coming from your mouth. you still post no valid argument to making HC providers non profits. its hard for you to admit stupidity isnt it?

and its your own damn fault you went to the doctor 2 times in 17 years.

hahaha ColonScent. is that the best you can do? call me name and made worthless threats. this coming from guy who calls himself "The Rabbi?" Way to look ignorant in your representation of the Jewish faith.

someone asked for the stats and i provided them. you provide nothing but baseless opinions on this matter.

you cant even agree with my waiver program, which is in direct response to you not wanting to be forced to buy insurance. so sign the waiver, but if you cant pay, then you get denied at the door. plain and simple.

I dont need facts and figures to know that the HC Bill is unconstitutional.....plain and simple!

Its a power grab and nothing more.

 

[Common Sense]

I dont need facts and figures to know that the HC Bill is unconstitutional.....plain and simple!

Its a power grab and nothing more.[/FONT]

so you make a claim with no facts to back it up.

bwahahahahahahaha

i can do that too....... ummmmmm the moon is fake and its picture is put in the sky by our corrupt government to fool you into thinking there are heaven. (check)

 

[SFC Ollie]

Still don't see how anyone can complain about a company making 3% Profit. And that is what it boils down to.