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Standard generation has to have a backup. That is why there are peaker plants. But that backup does not have to be fossil fuels. In fact, the combination of batteries and pumped hydro is not only cheaper than gas peaker plants, their use results in a more stable grid.
Peaker plants are LEVELERS,. They just take care of PEAKs.. Technically, they are NOT backbone generators.. Solar is a PEAKER -- Not an alternative. Because with a peaker plant, you can DEFER the building of more capacity...
It's not about "backing up" your existing capacity due to reliability issues.
Imagine how inefficient a car would be if it had to carry around its own reactant? Let's say several tons of compressed oxygen in a big tank? You might be able to pass that bullshit off on the other idiots on this board, but don't try it on anyone that actually researches how renewables are doing in Australia.Whoever you copied those costs from doesn't even know the diff between KWh and MWh...
From DOE... https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy20osti/75385.pdf
Figure ES-2 shows the overall capital cost for a 4-hour battery system based on those projections, with storage costs of $144/kWh, $208/kWh, and $293/kWh in 2030 and $88/kWh, $156/kWh, and $219/kWh in 2050. Battery variable operations and maintenance costs, lifetimes, and efficiencies are also discussed, with recommended values selected based on the publications surveyed.
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That's BATTERIES ONLY.. Not the complex AC/DC/AC convertors or facility, safety, monitoring or cooling needs. AND it does NOT AMORTIZE the approx 14 year LIFETIME of these batteries..
You and AOC gonna bury us in battery waste dude... AND wasted debt from this folly.
That's $150,000 per MWh.. So Moss Landing at 1200MWh for the BATTERIES ALONE is somewhere around $180MILL. And that's barely enough storage to charge 17,000 Tesla Model S with nothing left over for homes, hospitals or businesses.. MORE Teslas in Silicon Valley than that..
It's ALSO about 93Metric tons of Lithium... How much did you say that puny deposit in the US was?
Again, a bunch of bullshit. Batteries are not the only way to store grid scale energy. Pumped hydro has several advantages over batteries in that it can hold the energy indefinitely, and can store a huge amount of energy. Some utilities are looking at creating one of these near Goldendale, Washington.I mentioned before I am a physics nerd. Batteries are interesting because very few people understand the basic physics of battery technology. The reactant for any hydrocarbon engine is oxygen. This is a good thing because oxygen is readily available in the atmosphere.
All batteries must internally carry their own reactant. In traditional batteries it was lead. Highly inefficient because lead is heavy and the weight to power ratio is obviously very poor. Lithium is a much lighter element in newer battery technology, but the weight to power ratio relative to a gas turbine as an example, is still very poor.
The limitations of battery technology are the internal reactant, a limitation hydrocarbon powered engines do not have. This is a physics problem that does not yet have a solution. It may never have a solution.
Renewables would be much more viable if electrical energy could be stored efficiently within a battery system without significant energy loss. That way when the wind is not blowing or the sun is not shining you could store the energy for later use. Unfortunately, that technology does not yet exist. It may never exist.
In California some solar plants have built pipes filled with a sludgy brine. These pipes are super-heated by the solar grid. When the sun stops shining water is poured over the pipes to convert the Thermal energy to steam to spin a turbine. Sounds good right? The problem is Thermal energy quickly escapes into the atmosphere. This method of thermal conversion of energy is highly inefficient. Ditto pump storage where renewable power pumps water up a hill and release the water back down the hill. This conversion of Kinetic energy is also highly inefficient.
I could go on but you get the point. Renewables as a primary energy source for a 24/7 power grid is a fantasy put forth by people with no understand of basic physics. As an adjunct, fine. But without major technological breakthroughs nothing more.
You might be able to pass that bullshit off on the other idiots on this board, but don't try it on anyone that actually researches how renewables are doing in Australia.
Again, a bunch of bullshit. Batteries are not the only way to store grid scale energy. Pumped hydro has several advantages over batteries in that it can hold the energy indefinitely, and can store a huge amount of energy. Some utilities are looking at creating one of these near Goldendale, Washington.
I have explained this twice but you obviously do not understand basic math and science.
For the third time. The energy needed to pump water up a hill is greater than the energy that can be derived from releasing water back down the hill to spin a turbine. This is the basis for all pump storage. Hence the name pump storage. It you have found a way to violate an immutable law of physics please....do tell. I would be fascinated to see your equations.
I will patent it and become an immediate billionaire. Now unless you can add something intelligent go away, you have grown tiresome.
-- even 20% inefficiencies are tolerated. ANYTHING to make educated people STFU about placing life, property and security and health on the line when the "wind dont blow and the sun dont shine"...
LOL Now that is about a fucking dumb of a post as I have seen today. The energy that is used to pump the water uphill is energy that would not otherwise been generated or used. Whenever the windmills and solar farms are generating more than can be used, they are shut down. By having pumped storage, they can use that energy that would otherwise not be generated, to pump the upper storage area full. And when there is more demand than capacity, it can be used to generated the peak needs. Of course it is not 100% efficient. Nothing is. However, since it uses energy that would otherwise not be generated, it is essentially free energy.I have explained this twice but you obviously do not understand basic math and science.
For the third time. The energy needed to pump water up a hill is greater than the energy that can be derived from releasing water back down the hill to spin a turbine. This is the basis for all pump storage. Hence the name pump storage. It you have found a way to violate an immutable law of physics please....do tell. I would be fascinated to see your equations.
I will patent it and become an immediate billionaire. Now unless you can add something intelligent go away, you have grown tiresome.
Good God! Compress the water? LOL Ok, you failed third grade science. LOLThere are these funky "pneumatic/hydraulic" pumped storage developments that are FAR LESS environmentally painful. They use massive "balloons" laid underground in concrete (not so good for CO2) vaults.. You use "excess" wind/solar" to operate air pumps that COMPRESS the water in these balloons.
For small scale operations -- this is a much cleaner greener solution than hacking a steep hill or a pristine mountain to bits and letting it erode. Germany is NOT doing anymore of those to my knowledge.. Evidently Greenies need to SEE a bad idea in action to get the message. Was the same "greenie weenie" education that they got when their "sustainable" biomass conversion idea turned into garbage incinerators in their backyards..
VERY sloooowwwww learners they are..
Good God! Compress the water? LOL Ok, you failed third grade science. LOL
Whenever the windmills and solar farms are generating more than can be used, they are shut down.
LOL Now that is about a fucking dumb of a post as I have seen today. The energy that is used to pump the water uphill is energy that would not otherwise been generated or used. Whenever the windmills and solar farms are generating more than can be used, they are shut down. By having pumped storage, they can use that energy that would otherwise not be generated, to pump the upper storage area full. And when there is more demand than capacity, it can be used to generated the peak needs. Of course it is not 100% efficient. Nothing is. However, since it uses energy that would otherwise not be generated, it is essentially free energy.
Denmark went all in on wind energy about a decade ago. Huge wind farms planted in the North Sea west of the Country. The net result? Carbon emissions went up because the wind farms had to be backed up with conventional carbon based power plants when the wind was not blowing. The only way to make the winds farms economically viable was to build.....you guessed it....coal power plants.
This gets into physics, but it is very difficult to store electrical energy economically. It must either be stored as Kinetic energy or Thermal energy, but always at a significant loss in efficiency. I could talk for hours about this, physics is a passion, but the net result is much of alternative energy crap spewed out by Dims is garbage. It can only be an adjunct to traditional power sources unless some major breakthroughs in the physical sciences takes place.
