Walking away from your mortgage

[Zoom-boing]

No, they don't make guarantees. But they are in a position of power are supposed knowledge and people trust them.

Position of power? They provide a service and compete with the bank down the street. Until you sign on the dotted line, you are free to walk out of the office. What is up with people wanting to blame everyone else and not taking any personal responsibility?

Yes. Position of power. You do realize that knowledge is power and that not everyone has an equal amount of knowledge, right?

People were called stupid for not taking out larger home loans. I know my parents, who are not poor and were nowhere close to subprime loans, were actively ridiculed by bank employees because they were only taking out a moderate loan when they built their house in 03. Yes, this influences people. Are you really so ignorant of psychology to think that oh, well, because people have free will it doesn't matter what is done to influence them?

No lender ever puts a gun to anybody's head and forces them to take out a loan. In fact, they will deny the loan if the person doesn't qualify.

Actually for a while they were accepting pretty much everyone.

When my hubs and I were looking to buy our first house the bank told us we could afford way more house - way more mortgage payment - than we were comfortable with. At the time we were both working but we knew we wanted kids and I would likely stay home with them and our income would be significantly reduced. We based our decision on that, what we wanted for our future, rather than on the now, what was our present. Bought a smaller house with smaller payments that we whacked the shit out of for the 3 or 4 years before we had kids, stayed there twice as long as we originally anticipated . . . all of which made it possible for use to move into our current house with a significant down payment, thus reducing our loan and saving us bucks. All because we didn't just listen to the banks, we asked others (older and wiser others who had been through this process before) and we refused to get into debt that we knew was over our head.

Banks and/or people were ridiculing others for not taking out more loan than they could afford? People need to grow thicker skins. btw, whose laughing now?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Nik, can it, please.

Almost everyone from the homeowner to all the middle wo/men to the banks are responsible. Greed is what was responsible.

Indeed. And so why the fuck are you guys blaming minority homeowners specifically?

What guys, Nik? Name them by name.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Bullshit. Banks are required to provide disclosures and disclaimers. It is what is known as the fine print and any smart consumer will pay attention to it when the lender points it out as he is required to do. Banks can't and don't make guarantees on what the market will do.

No, they don't make guarantees. But they are in a position of power are supposed knowledge and people trust them.

Position of power? They provide a service and compete with the bank down the street. Until you sign on the dotted line, you are free to walk out of the office. What is up with people wanting to blame everyone else and not taking any personal responsibility? No lender ever puts a gun to anybody's head and forces them to take out a loan. In fact, they will deny the loan if the person doesn't qualify. Once they agree on terms and the contract is done, the person taking out hte loan has an obligation to repay it with interest under the terms of the loan which were made abundantly clear by regulation. If a person defaults on the loan they willingly agreed to, they lose everything.

Unless the industry was acting in bad faith, and a case can be made for that.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Zander is pissing and moaning to me privately (because he knows I will kick his ass here) that the above did not happen. It surely did and we were thrilled with the outcome.

Zander, I am sorry you are a loser in life. You need to change things, and crying about how mean I am to you is not going to change anything.

Grow up, wipe your ass, pull up your pants, and simply move on, little Zander.

I will simply ignore you from now on until you grow up and act like a man, little Zander.

.....quit your whining Jake.....you call Zander a little man because he is crying....what the hell are you doing?.....

 

[JakeStarkey]

Zander is pissing and moaning to me privately (because he knows I will kick his ass here) that the above did not happen. It surely did and we were thrilled with the outcome.

Zander, I am sorry you are a loser in life. You need to change things, and crying about how mean I am to you is not going to change anything.

Grow up, wipe your ass, pull up your pants, and simply move on, little Zander.

I will simply ignore you from now on until you grow up and act like a man, little Zander.

.....quit your whining Jake.....you call Zander a little man because he is crying....what the hell are you doing?.....

Harry, what are you whining about , son? I am calling him out to come here and do it instead of from the shadows. You, son, are often a jerk, but you don't attack from the shadows. Zander does because he knows I will kick him apart here.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Harry, what are you whining about , son? I am calling him out to come here and do it instead of from the shadows. You, son, are often a jerk, but you don't attack from the shadows. Zander does because he knows I will kick him apart here.

no you were whining about what Zander was doing......and for some reason you felt everyone else should know this.....like we can care....when he allegedly did what you said he did....call him out then and there....if he doesn't take you on out here....oh well....personally i dont think Zander did this....because the guy has debated enough people "out here" to make what you say kinda dubious....this guy has gone head to head with Rdean and Zona for christ sakes....why would he be scared of you?.....

 

[Avatar4321]

Most of them did. And people believed it because housing prices had gone up for the previous 10 years or so. It was called a housing bubble, maybe you've heard of it? Everyone wanted to get in on it. And then it burst, and everyone got fucked.

So because "everyone" wanted in, it's the banks fault? Can you point to any example of a bank telling it's customers to take out loans and buy property because it will always go up? That practice seems rather stupid, because as you have already noted, knowledge is power. And no one with knowledge believes the bullcrap that prices always go up.

So logically, these banks weren't knowledgible and sprouting this bs, or they were and didn't. Because they wouldn't make risky loans if they could avoid it. Otherwise there would be no profit.

If you don't know anything about the housing market, my recommendation is you don't get into it until you do know something about it. It's foolish to sign your good name to commit to payments in a process you know nothing about. Educating oneself isn't difficult.

 

[Avatar4321]

No, they don't make guarantees. But they are in a position of power are supposed knowledge and people trust them.

Are you saying that we should just blindly believe people and not verify things for ourselves?

Why?

 

[Nik]

Position of power? They provide a service and compete with the bank down the street. Until you sign on the dotted line, you are free to walk out of the office. What is up with people wanting to blame everyone else and not taking any personal responsibility?

Yes. Position of power. You do realize that knowledge is power and that not everyone has an equal amount of knowledge, right?

People were called stupid for not taking out larger home loans. I know my parents, who are not poor and were nowhere close to subprime loans, were actively ridiculed by bank employees because they were only taking out a moderate loan when they built their house in 03. Yes, this influences people. Are you really so ignorant of psychology to think that oh, well, because people have free will it doesn't matter what is done to influence them?

No lender ever puts a gun to anybody's head and forces them to take out a loan. In fact, they will deny the loan if the person doesn't qualify.

Actually for a while they were accepting pretty much everyone.

When my hubs and I were looking to buy our first house the bank told us we could afford way more house - way more mortgage payment - than we were comfortable with. At the time we were both working but we knew we wanted kids and I would likely stay home with them and our income would be significantly reduced. We based our decision on that, what we wanted for our future, rather than on the now, what was our present. Bought a smaller house with smaller payments that we whacked the shit out of for the 3 or 4 years before we had kids, stayed there twice as long as we originally anticipated . . . all of which made it possible for use to move into our current house with a significant down payment, thus reducing our loan and saving us bucks. All because we didn't just listen to the banks, we asked others (older and wiser others who had been through this process before) and we refused to get into debt that we knew was over our head.

Banks and/or people were ridiculing others for not taking out more loan than they could afford? People need to grow thicker skins. btw, whose laughing now?

Nobody is laughing, really. Even those who invested wisely got hit by a bad economy.

 

[Nik]

No, they don't make guarantees. But they are in a position of power are supposed knowledge and people trust them.

Are you saying that we should just blindly believe people and not verify things for ourselves?

Why?

You ever been to Zimbabwe? How about North Korea?

You confident that since you've never been there, they actually exist?

There are reasons why we have experts who we listen too. Its because it is impossible to learn everything ourselves. Its just that people think that its oh so obvious as to which experts to listen too. Of course in hindsight its obvious. But before it happens, its less obvious.

 

[Nik]

Most of them did. And people believed it because housing prices had gone up for the previous 10 years or so. It was called a housing bubble, maybe you've heard of it? Everyone wanted to get in on it. And then it burst, and everyone got fucked.

So because "everyone" wanted in, it's the banks fault? Can you point to any example of a bank telling it's customers to take out loans and buy property because it will always go up? That practice seems rather stupid, because as you have already noted, knowledge is power. And no one with knowledge believes the bullcrap that prices always go up.

The banks LIED to people. As for examples, yeah, they lied to my parents. And actually lots of people believed it. Why do you think there was a housing bubble in the first place?

So logically, these banks weren't knowledgible and sprouting this bs, or they were and didn't. Because they wouldn't make risky loans if they could avoid it. Otherwise there would be no profit.

Actually risky loans were incredibly profitable. Until they all went bust at once.

If you don't know anything about the housing market, my recommendation is you don't get into it until you do know something about it. It's foolish to sign your good name to commit to payments in a process you know nothing about. Educating oneself isn't difficult.

Really? Pray tell how one educates oneself about what home prices will be like in 5 years from now? People wanted to get in on the gravy train. And a lot did. But then a lot of people got burned on it as well.

 

[Avatar4321]

No, they don't make guarantees. But they are in a position of power are supposed knowledge and people trust them.

Are you saying that we should just blindly believe people and not verify things for ourselves?

Why?

You ever been to Zimbabwe? How about North Korea?

You confident that since you've never been there, they actually exist?

There are reasons why we have experts who we listen too. Its because it is impossible to learn everything ourselves. Its just that people think that its oh so obvious as to which experts to listen too. Of course in hindsight its obvious. But before it happens, its less obvious.

It may be impossible to learn everything. But that doesn't mean we can't and we shouldnt learn as much as possible. Especially concerning our business and lifestyle choices.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Harry, what are you whining about , son? I am calling him out to come here and do it instead of from the shadows. You, son, are often a jerk, but you don't attack from the shadows. Zander does because he knows I will kick him apart here.

no you were whining about what Zander was doing......and for some reason you felt everyone else should know this.....like we can care....when he allegedly did what you said he did....call him out then and there....if he doesn't take you on out here....oh well....personally i dont think Zander did this....because the guy has debated enough people "out here" to make what you say kinda dubious....this guy has gone head to head with Rdean and Zona for christ sakes....why would he be scared of you?.....

Because I have no trouble making him look like a fool. And when he has gone head to head with the lefties, he loses every time. Calling it what it is can never be whining, Harry.

 

[nraforlife]

..........................
You ever been to Zimbabwe? How about North Korea?

You confident that since you've never been there, they actually exist?

There are reasons why we have experts who we listen too. Its because it is impossible to learn everything ourselves. Its just that people think that its oh so obvious as to which experts to listen too. Of course in hindsight its obvious. But before it happens, its less obvious.

I expect you are kinda young. In time you will learn (maybe not America is larded with sheeple who get fleeced everyday of their lives) that no 'expert' or person in a position of power should ever receive trust as a given- not your Doctor not your global warming scientist, not your Prez, not even your auto mechanic. Trust must be earned one brick at a time. Then if there is a single breach ever in that slowly built wall of trust the entire ediface is without foundation & needs to come down.

Any dealings with a new 'expert' must start with the assumption that they wish you to do or pay something for their gain NOT yours. Of course it might turn out that many of your 'experts' are merely lazy/incompetent rather than actively dishonest, but the results for you won't be any better.

Learn history and math. There is no con out there that has not been tried in the past and is not vunerable to exposure by ordinary checkbook math analysis (rocket science not required).

 

[Nik]

Are you saying that we should just blindly believe people and not verify things for ourselves?

Why?

You ever been to Zimbabwe? How about North Korea?

You confident that since you've never been there, they actually exist?

There are reasons why we have experts who we listen too. Its because it is impossible to learn everything ourselves. Its just that people think that its oh so obvious as to which experts to listen too. Of course in hindsight its obvious. But before it happens, its less obvious.

It may be impossible to learn everything. But that doesn't mean we can't and we shouldnt learn as much as possible. Especially concerning our business and lifestyle choices.

Indeed. But don't blast people who don't have the time, or the resources, to spend learning about where the housing market will go.

By the way...predictions are often vastly mistaken on a whole array of areas. We are not reasoned decision makers, at all. And any decision which makes a prediction about the future market (which a home purchase ALWAYS does) is liable to gross mistake.

 

[sangha]

That's just bizarre. How did Clinton force bush to continue Clinton's policies?

Stupid question that has nothing to do with the suggestion; Sangha, drag your red herring elsewhere because it and your argument stink. You are bizarre if you deny that Bush was involved in the mess. I merely point out that both parties are involved. You do understand that, don't you?

You must be reading my posts upside down. My post indicates bush responsibility for the mess, and you think it's a defense of bush.

 

[Nik]

..........................
You ever been to Zimbabwe? How about North Korea?

You confident that since you've never been there, they actually exist?

There are reasons why we have experts who we listen too. Its because it is impossible to learn everything ourselves. Its just that people think that its oh so obvious as to which experts to listen too. Of course in hindsight its obvious. But before it happens, its less obvious.

I expect you are kinda young. In time you will learn (maybe not America is larded with sheeple who get fleeced everyday of their lives) that no 'expert' or person in a position of power should ever receive trust as a given- not your Doctor not your global warming scientist, not your Prez, not even your auto mechanic. Trust must be earned one brick at a time. Then if there is a single breach ever in that slowly built wall of trust the entire ediface is without foundation & needs to come down.

Oh well, then I won't take it as a given that Zimbabwe exists.

Be skeptical, sure, but the whole "you can't trust anyone" will make your life very, very difficult. If you ever need a lawyer, you'll be fucked. Lying to your lawyer can get you into very very deep trouble.

Any dealings with a new 'expert' must start with the assumption that they wish you to do or pay something for their gain NOT yours. Of course it might turn out that many of your 'experts' are merely lazy/incompetent rather than actively dishonest, but the results for you won't be any better.

Have fun with that if you need an incredibly complicated surgery. Tell me, exactly what amount of research would be necessary to find out the best way of treating your rare form of cancer? Maybe you could read some things on the internet....no wait, thats just information compiled by experts (or not, as the case may be).

So...I guess you'll have to do your own clinical trials. Maybe recruit some individuals to test different procedures on. Etc, etc. Of course by that time you'll be long dead. But you know, its all worth it because we can't trust experts.

Learn history and math. There is no con out there that has not been tried in the past and is not vunerable to exposure by ordinary checkbook math analysis (rocket science not required).

Umm, alright then.

Does it suck that we have to trust experts? Yes. Do they sometimes fuck up? Yes. Should you check their work as much as possible? Yes. But in the end you are just going to have to trust them if you want to do any number of things in this world.

Or do you often grill your pilot on his professonal background and wave a breathalyzer in front of his face before take-off?

 

[nraforlife]

.....................Oh well, then I won't take it as a given that Zimbabwe exists.

Works for me. I have strong doubts that 80% of Moscow actually exists.

.....................the whole "you can't trust anyone" will make your life very, very difficult. If you ever need a lawyer, you'll be fucked. .........

Not really- Liars and incompetents are readily smoked out on an F2F basis.

.....................Have fun with that if you need an incredibly complicated surgery. ............

never said I don't make use of the Skills of others. What I said is that I do not give blind trust to supposed 'experts' simply because of their proclaimed 'expert' status.

.....................Or do you often grill your pilot on his professonal background and wave a breathalyzer in front of his face before take-off?

I once walked off a regional flight because the pilot struck me as questionable

 

[Nik]

.....................Oh well, then I won't take it as a given that Zimbabwe exists.

Works for me. I have strong doubts that 80% of Moscow actually exists.

.....................the whole "you can't trust anyone" will make your life very, very difficult. If you ever need a lawyer, you'll be fucked. .........

Not really- Liars and incompetents are readily smoked out on an F2F basis.

.....................Have fun with that if you need an incredibly complicated surgery. ............

never said I don't make use of the Skills of others. What I said is that I do not give blind trust to supposed 'experts' simply because of their proclaimed 'expert' status.

.....................Or do you often grill your pilot on his professonal background and wave a breathalyzer in front of his face before take-off?

I once walked off a regional flight because the pilot struck me as questionable

Except that you do give blind trust. Because, really, you have no fucking idea what makes someone expert or not.

Shit...see the people on here who think they can argue the law. Shit is complicated, and people think they know what the fuck they are talking about. Imagine being a lawyer and having some dumbshit walk into your office and think they know more than you because they looked up commonlaw and customary law and think its the same.

If you want to be skeptical, go for it...but its really dumb luck as to whether you get someone competent or not. Well...or what you can really do is ask other professionals.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Because I have no trouble making him look like a fool. And when he has gone head to head with the lefties, he loses every time. Calling it what it is can never be whining, Harry.

it depends on how you look at it Jake....when someone does not come back to answer whatever has been said in the discussion they are in....i am assuming they have no answer,so they conveniently go on to another thread,OR just ignore the poster they are conversing with and act like they never conversed....they lost the debate as far as i am concerned.....and i dont mean you....you have always hung in there,at least in our slugfests....now there are a few in here that leave every time lefties and righties...i have seen Zander in discussions with some lefties in here who have just disappeared or ignored his question....does that mean he lost or they lost?.....