War on Christmas

[Mencken]

It's government endorsement of religion that is forbidden by the Constitution. The fact that Christmas is a federal holiday is irrelevant.

It's not an endorsement of the Christian faith. I think that's an inaccurate representation because if it were, we've been violating the Constitution since George Washington said "So help me God" at his inauguration.

It is merely a civilization's celebration of its dominant faith and in this pluralistic society that adheres to Judeo-Christian values, a Christmas wreath at the White House, saying Merry Christmas, and Christmas trees on federal property do not represent a endorsement of Christianity as much as a recognition of the fact that our civilization has been Christian and celebrates one if its major holidays accordingly.

What I'm saying in short, it's not endorsement. The Government does not say "You must be Christian. We are a Christian government." To say explicitly an endorsement, it would have to be a resolution saying we are a Christian Government and we are bound by the laws of Jesus. Nothing of the sort is going on here.

The Government is simply saying "We recognize that many people are Christian and it is a custom to have Christmas trees at Christmas and to say Merry Christmas," etc.

 

[Black Lance]

It's government endorsement of religion that is forbidden by the Constitution. The fact that Christmas is a federal holiday is irrelevant.

Then your real argument is that having Christmas as a federal holiday is unconstitutional. Sad, Mr. Scrooge.

Has the government made Christmas a federal holiday because it wants to make an establishment of religion, or because most of the population participates in this holiday and won't want to come in to work on Christmas day?

 

[Ravi]

The more federal holidays the merrier, IMO. We really should have at least one federal holiday for every religion practiced in the USA.

 

[WhiteLion]

shoving down throat boy what a drama queen.



a manager, a christmas tree, a yuletide carol,,===shoving down throat,, jeez there's lots to be upset about but,, Christmas??? wow,,

True Willow, what is it about Christmas that angers them so bad??? another cool cat avatar

 

[WhiteLion]

Come on! you know teh stupid is contagious!

Yeh hah takes one to know one???

 

[WhiteLion]

It's government endorsement of religion that is forbidden by the Constitution. The fact that Christmas is a federal holiday is irrelevant.

Its freedom of religion, not freedom from religion and shall not be infringed upon

 

[WhiteLion]

Dudes, don't you know that God was busy getting 4 million Americans a better deal on their car insurance this month from geico.com? I gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls.

HE'S always been there, where'd you go?, or did you really saleout to HIM

 

[WhiteLion]

Not a single person on this board attempting to create the lie that there is some kind of war on Christmas gives a rat's ass what greeters say to them.

This is a NON issue, just like so many issues the right wing nuts on this board bring up.

This is a variant on the Christians as VICTIMS myth that some right wingers want us to believe.

The right creates nonsensical issues like this because they desperate do NOT want to discuss real issues.

The real issue here is how in hell did you escape from the nut house

 

[KittenKoder]

You know what would be REALLY cool? A satanists christmas decoration setup in the mall.

 

[WhiteLion]

You know what would be REALLY cool? A satanists christmas decoration setup in the mall.

ouuu yeh we got enough devils here to decorate it

 

[KittenKoder]

ouuu yeh we got enough devils here to decorate it

Well ... satanism is just another christian cult so it would make sens, though I suspect it would be darker than the christian idols used it would still be interesting.

 

[WillowTree]

I sincerely hope everyone has a Merry Merry Christmas..

 

[Navy1960]

It's not an endorsement of the Christian faith. I think that's an inaccurate representation because if it were, we've been violating the Constitution since George Washington said "So help me God" at his inauguration.

It is merely a civilization's celebration of its dominant faith and in this pluralistic society that adheres to Judeo-Christian values, a Christmas wreath at the White House, saying Merry Christmas, and Christmas trees on federal property do not represent a endorsement of Christianity as much as a recognition of the fact that our civilization has been Christian and celebrates one if its major holidays accordingly.

What I'm saying in short, it's not endorsement. The Government does not say "You must be Christian. We are a Christian government." To say explicitly an endorsement, it would have to be a resolution saying we are a Christian Government and we are bound by the laws of Jesus. Nothing of the sort is going on here.

The Government is simply saying "We recognize that many people are Christian and it is a custom to have Christmas trees at Christmas and to say Merry Christmas," etc.

George Washington said it best with his Thanksgiving day proclamation ---“ Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation"

"For we deal here not with the establishment of a state church, which would, of course, be constitutionally impermissible, but with whether school children who want to begin their day by joining in prayer must be prohibited from doing so. Moreover, I think that the Court's task, in this as in all areas of constitutional adjudication, is not responsibly aided by the uncritical invocation of metaphors like the 'wall of separation,' a phrase nowhere to be found in the Constitution. What is relevant to the issue here is not the history of an established church in sixteenth century England or in eighteenth century America, but the history of the religious traditions of our people, reflected in countless practices of the institutions and officials of our government." Justice Potter Stewart, in his 1962 dissenting opinion in Engel v. Vitale

Former U. S. Chief Justice Warren Berger said that the Constitution does not require complete separation of church and state. It mandates accommodation, not merely tolerance, of all religions and forbids hostility toward any.

"In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the General Government. I have therefore undertaken, on no occasion, to prescribe the religious exercise suited to it; but have left them, as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of state and church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies". Thomas Jefferson

"Whereas, the Senate of the United States devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for national prayer and humiliation:
And whereas, it is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord:" Abraham Lincoln

"All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, but those who believe must be free to speak of and act on their belief, to apply moral teaching to public questions… Tolerant society is open to and encouraging of all religions, and this does not weaken us; it strengthens us… Without God, there is no virtue, because there's no prompting of the conscience. Without God, we're mired in the material, that flat world that tells us only what the senses perceive. Without God, there is a coarsening of the society and without God, democracy will not and cannot long endure." Ronald Reagan


It is merely a civilization's celebration of its dominant faith and in this pluralistic society that adheres to Judeo-Christian values, a Christmas wreath at the White House, saying Merry Christmas, and Christmas trees on federal property do not represent a endorsement of Christianity as much as a recognition of the fact that our civilization has been Christian and celebrates one if its major holidays accordingly. I completely agree and those are but a few historical instances where it is very clear. The seperation Clause does not specifically forbid any religion , in fact historically it's authors intention was very clear that it was to celebrate tolerance of religion and it's intent was not to be used as a weapon to forbid any specific religion as much as many may believe. It is also very clear from a historical view that this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values and one need but look back through this nations history to see that.

 

[mattskramer]

It's not the people, it is the people controlling the people that are sinners.

Yes, and the innocent people get punished for it. Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. There is no rhyme or reason for it.

 

[YWN666]

Its freedom of religion, not freedom from religion and shall not be infringed upon

If you have freedom OF religion, you MUST have freedom FROM religion. You're saying I can choose any religion I like but that I must choose one? The option being free from religion is really not an option? That is nonsense.

 

[YWN666]

Well ... satanism is just another christian cult so it would make sens, though I suspect it would be darker than the christian idols used it would still be interesting.

That is what some of the more rabid christians don't understand. Prohibiting government endorsement of religion protects them, too. In fact, many of the court cases brought by the ACLU concerning religion in government were filed on behalf of christians.

 

[YWN666]

Grasping at straws again Yawn.

The proof was there for you to see right rom the WalMart website. I don't understand why you're pursuing this "greeters don't exist" argument when it is not at all relevant to the case.

 

[YWN666]

It's not an endorsement of the Christian faith. I think that's an inaccurate representation because if it were, we've been violating the Constitution since George Washington said "So help me God" at his inauguration.

It is merely a civilization's celebration of its dominant faith and in this pluralistic society that adheres to Judeo-Christian values, a Christmas wreath at the White House, saying Merry Christmas, and Christmas trees on federal property do not represent a endorsement of Christianity as much as a recognition of the fact that our civilization has been Christian and celebrates one if its major holidays accordingly.

What I'm saying in short, it's not endorsement. The Government does not say "You must be Christian. We are a Christian government." To say explicitly an endorsement, it would have to be a resolution saying we are a Christian Government and we are bound by the laws of Jesus. Nothing of the sort is going on here.

The Government is simply saying "We recognize that many people are Christian and it is a custom to have Christmas trees at Christmas and to say Merry Christmas," etc.

You're referring to situations where individuals in government are expressing their religious beliefs. If George Bush says "God is real" then that is his personal opinion. If the words "God is real" are engraved on the frieze of the US Supreme Court, then it is the government making the statement and it is not allowed. It is the same situation with graves in a national cemeteries. Individual government headstones have symbols for the christian, jewish, and other faiths (they even have symbols for atheists!) but what they cannot do is display a huge cross at the entrance to the cemetery that suggests that it is a christian cemetery.

 

[Againsheila]

If you have freedom OF religion, you MUST have freedom FROM religion. You're saying I can choose any religion I like but that I must choose one? The option being free from religion is really not an option? That is nonsense.

Not at all. We're saying that when we say grace you don't have to participate, but you can't stop us either.

Freedom of religion means that we can be religious whenever and whereever we want and don't have to stop because it offends you. It means that muslims can do their prayers in the middle of the dang airport and you can't stop it. It means the Christians can say grace before they eat in the school cafeteria and you can't stop it.

Sadly, too many athiests have taken their freedom to far and believe they have a right to freedom from religion as the organization that sent the sign to our state capital that says religion causes hearts to harden and enslaves minds. They think they have a right to tell highschool graduates that they can't say a prayer when they graduate rather than just sitting there quietly until it's over.

Did you read about the highschool that was told they couldn't say a prayer? After the program was over, one graduate went up to the podium, the crowd fell silent. The entire graduating class, at one time, sneezed. He just looked at them and said "God Bless You". Sad that they had to sneak that prayer in rather than being allowed to just say a prayer when they graduated, don't you think?

There isn't just a war on Christmas in this country, there is a war on Christianity. You can see it in our public schools. When a student at our local elementary school started to say Grace alloud before he ate, the lunchroom attendent told him he had to say it quietly or not at all. When a group of elementary school kids ON THEIR OWN gathered around the flag pole and started to say a prayer in the morning BEFORE SCHOOL STARTED, the principal came out and told them to disperse. When a junior high kid brought his Bible to class to read during free reading time, he was told it wasn't allowed. It took the parents going to the school board to force that school to allow kids to read their Bibles during FREE READING TIME!!!

What do you call it when our rights are being chipped away little by little? Oh, wait, you don't think we have the right to our religion. You think it's hard hearted and stupid and that we shouldn't be allowed to pray in front of you, right?

 

[YWN666]

Then your real argument is that having Christmas as a federal holiday is unconstitutional. Sad, Mr. Scrooge.

I never said such a thing

Has the government made Christmas a federal holiday because it wants to make an establishment of religion, or because most of the population participates in this holiday and won't want to come in to work on Christmas day?

The latter. I imagine it is an economic decision. If the majority of workers are Christian, why stay open when no one will be there?