War on Christmas

[YWN666]

Not at all. We're saying that when we say grace you don't have to participate, but you can't stop us either.

Who is stopping you from saying grace? That is your constitutional right.

Freedom of religion means that we can be religious whenever and whereever we want and don't have to stop because it offends you.

True, unless your exercising that right violates the rights of others.

It means that muslims can do their prayers in the middle of the dang airport and you can't stop it. It means the Christians can say grace before they eat in the school cafeteria and you can't stop it.

Again, who is stopping them from doing so? I see this complaint often but when I ask for an example, I either get silence or an example where the school is saying the prayer and that is strictly forbidden.

Sadly, too many athiests have taken their freedom to far and believe they have a right to freedom from religion as the organization that sent the sign to our state capital that says religion causes hearts to harden and enslaves minds. They think they have a right to tell highschool graduates that they can't say a prayer when they graduate rather than just sitting there quietly until it's over.

They do have the right to say a prayer anywhere and anytime. What they can't do is conduct the prayer in a group setting using school facilities. Anyway, if a silent prayer said to oneself does the trick, why do you folks insist on doing it in a group for others to see? When you demand an audience, it ceases being a prayer and becomes a sermon.

Did you read about the highschool that was told they couldn't say a prayer?

No but if it was a public high school, they were rightly forbidden.

After the program was over, one graduate went up to the podium, the crowd fell silent. The entire graduating class, at one time, sneezed. He just looked at them and said "God Bless You". Sad that they had to sneak that prayer in rather than being allowed to just say a prayer when they graduated, don't you think?

So a colloquial expression that people say when someone sneezes has religious significance? You clever christians really pulled one over on us, eh?? It must have taken months of planning.

There isn't just a war on Christmas in this country, there is a war on Christianity.

Ahhh, here comes the whining!!! It was just a matter of time.

You can see it in our public schools. When a student at our local elementary school started to say Grace alloud before he ate, the lunchroom attendent told him he had to say it quietly or not at all. When a group of elementary school kids ON THEIR OWN gathered around the flag pole and started to say a prayer in the morning BEFORE SCHOOL STARTED, the principal came out and told them to disperse. When a junior high kid brought his Bible to class to read during free reading time, he was told it wasn't allowed. It took the parents going to the school board to force that school to allow kids to read their Bibles during FREE READING TIME!!!

I'd like to see where this actually happened. If in fact it did happen, then it was a violation of the students rights possibly caused by an overzealous or uninformed employee and not a system wode policy as you are claiming. I'd like to see a cite for these stories if you have them.

What do you call it when our rights are being chipped away little by little? Oh, wait, you don't think we have the right to our religion.

No one is chipping away at your rights. If you think so, then tell us exactly what rights you are losing and how they are being lost. There is a lot of christian propaganda out there that has no truth to it but that doesn't stop people like you from eating it up and regurgitating it as the truth.

You think it's hard hearted and stupid and that we shouldn't be allowed to pray in front of you, right?

I'd also like to see the details of this sign you keep mentioning and the circumstances surrounding it. if it was in an area wjherte displays of various religions are set up, then you have no say about the content of the displays (with reasonable limitations, of course). That is the price of allowing religious displays on government property (and I am assuming it was since you're complaining). You get to have yours, but then you have to allow all other religions, too and you may not like what they have to say.

 

[WillowTree]

Merry Merry Christmas Everyone!

 

[YWN666]

And if they are so irrelevant, why do you keep responding to my posts about them? Most people would just ignore it . . . .

Probably because you're ignoring my answers and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you're slow instead of dishonest.

 

[YWN666]

So they don't exist because YOU didn't see them? Quite an ego you got there!
Go to the WalMart website and do a search for the word "greeter" and you'll find plenty of references.

Interesting that zoomboing ignores the parts of my posts that would embarrass him. That's what trolls do.

 

[Againsheila]

Merry Merry Christmas Everyone!

Merry Christmas Willow.

My gift to you athiests...you don't have to listen to me talk about religion until next year. As of now, I'm no longer posting on this thread until after Christmas. This makes my Christmas merrier, and perhaps yours too.

Merry Christmas everyone.

 

[YWN666]

Merry Christmas Willow.

My gift to you athiests...you don't have to listen to me talk about religion until next year. As of now, I'm no longer posting on this thread until after Christmas. This makes my Christmas merrier, and perhaps yours too.

Merry Christmas everyone.

If I knew asking you to prove your silly assertions would stop your whining, I would have done it much sooner

The timing is not too obvious, Sheila.

 

[Mencken]

You're referring to situations where individuals in government are expressing their religious beliefs. If George Bush says "God is real" then that is his personal opinion. If the words "God is real" are engraved on the frieze of the US Supreme Court, then it is the government making the statement and it is not allowed. It is the same situation with graves in a national cemeteries. Individual government headstones have symbols for the christian, jewish, and other faiths (they even have symbols for atheists!) but what they cannot do is display a huge cross at the entrance to the cemetery that suggests that it is a christian cemetery.

But the fact remains that there is no endorsement of a religion. An endorsement of a religion would be like the Church of England, where the Queen is Head of the Church of England and the Prime Minister must be an Anglican. That is an endorsement of a religion.

Simply having "In God we trust" (to use a real world example) is not anything near that and having a simple reflection of what our civilization largely believes is not an endorsement of religion that the Constitution prohibits. It in fact refers to an official state endorsement of a religion, and I think it's reasonable to say that a Christian tree, a "In God we trust" and "One Nation Under God" are all statements that are in line with a national belief in God rather than a specific endorsement of religion.

The kind of endorsement of religion that would be prohibited is e.g, requiring all government officials to be a specific faith, dictating the doctrine of faith from the government, and in general doing much what the Church of England does.

This is clearly - if you read that gentleman who posted what George Washington said - the intent of the Founders. It's also clear that in 1776 and the subsequent decades, religion was never meant to be completely eliminated. What was to be eliminated was a Church of England type situation.

 

[YWN666]

But the fact remains that there is no endorsement of a religion. An endorsement of a religion would be like the Church of England, where the Queen is Head of the Church of England and the Prime Minister must be an Anglican. That is an endorsement of a religion.

The Supreme Court disagrees with you.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Once again Yawn, until you guys brought up greeters I had no idea they even had such a job. You're right, Wal-mart actually has people who stand at the door and greet people. However, the Wal-mart and Target I went to this week had no one there to greet me. I guess they lack continuity in this area.

Thanks for responding to yet another one of my irrelevant greeter posts.

 

[Mencken]

The Supreme Court disagrees with you.

Are you referring to Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971)?

 

[Ravi]

Once again Yawn, until you guys brought up greeters I had no idea they even had such a job. You're right, Wal-mart actually has people who stand at the door and greet people. However, the Wal-mart and Target I went to this week had no one there to greet me. I guess they lack continuity in this area.

Thanks for responding to yet another one of my irrelevant greeter posts.

They probably can't find people that aren't afraid to wish rabid Christians a Happy Holiday for minimum wage.

 

[KittenKoder]

Another funny fact: There is no 'war' on anything christmas or christian, it's a lame attempt to get attention by them.

 

[WillowTree]

somebody stole the anit-God sign!!

 

[Againsheila]

If I knew asking you to prove your silly assertions would stop your whining, I would have done it much sooner

The timing is not too obvious, Sheila.

Because you apparently don't know how to google

Local News | Nonbelievers' sign at Capitol counters Nativity | Seattle Times Newspaper

As for the rest, check the Federal Way Mirror and the Federal Way News archives...it costs money and I'm not paying for it just to prove to you I'm not a liar.

I apologize to everyone else. Ywn won't let it go and sent me a private message to prove my point...again calling me a liar. Apparently Merry Christmas isn't good enough for Ywn. This is the last you'll hear from me on this thread, this time I promise. I'm putting Ywn on ignore.


Merry Christmas everyone and Happy New Year

 

[WillowTree]

Another funny fact: There is no 'war' on anything christmas or christian, it's a lame attempt to get attention by them.

.



she said at post 512

 

[KittenKoder]

.



she said at post 512

*grins* I like to wait and see all the funny bickering sometimes before posting the facts. It's like watching dogs chase their tales.

 

[YWN666]

Once again Yawn, until you guys brought up greeters I had no idea they even had such a job. You're right, Wal-mart actually has people who stand at the door and greet people. However, the Wal-mart and Target I went to this week had no one there to greet me. I guess they lack continuity in this area.

I don't frequent those kind of stores so I wouldn't know.

 

[YWN666]

Because you apparently don't know how to google

Local News | Nonbelievers' sign at Capitol counters Nativity | Seattle Times Newspaper

As for the rest, check the Federal Way Mirror and the Federal Way News archives...it costs money and I'm not paying for it just to prove to you I'm not a liar.

Oh, I know how to Google but you made the assertions and it is your obligation to prove it.

I apologize to everyone else. Ywn won't let it go and sent me a private message to prove my point...again calling me a liar.

Well, the label is appropriate (and my message to you was in response to the rude message you sent me, you idiot). Fundies like you typically make asinine comments and then when someone calls you on it, you either
1. say "YOU find it"
2. say "I'm not responding anymore/I'm putting you on ignore"
3. run
You scored the hat trick - you did all three!

Apparently Merry Christmas isn't good enough for Ywn.

False. That was never the issue and I never said anything like that.

This is the last you'll hear from me on this thread, this time I promise. I'm putting Ywn on ignore.

I will have to assume that all of your claims that I challenged were false.

 

[YWN666]

Another funny fact: There is no 'war' on anything christmas or christian, it's a lame attempt to get attention by them.

Yep, that is exactly what it is.

 

[YWN666]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Againsheila
Not at all. We're saying that when we say grace you don't have to participate, but you can't stop us either.
Who is stopping you from saying grace? That is your constitutional right.


Quote:
Freedom of religion means that we can be religious whenever and whereever we want and don't have to stop because it offends you.
True, unless your exercising that right violates the rights of others.


Quote:
It means that muslims can do their prayers in the middle of the dang airport and you can't stop it. It means the Christians can say grace before they eat in the school cafeteria and you can't stop it.
Again, who is stopping them from doing so? I see this complaint often but when I ask for an example, I either get silence or an example where the school is saying the prayer and that is strictly forbidden.


Quote:
Sadly, too many athiests have taken their freedom to far and believe they have a right to freedom from religion as the organization that sent the sign to our state capital that says religion causes hearts to harden and enslaves minds. They think they have a right to tell highschool graduates that they can't say a prayer when they graduate rather than just sitting there quietly until it's over.

They do have the right to say a prayer anywhere and anytime. What they can't do is conduct the prayer in a group setting using school facilities. Anyway, if a silent prayer said to oneself does the trick, why do you folks insist on doing it in a group for others to see? When you demand an audience, it ceases being a prayer and becomes a sermon.


Quote:
Did you read about the highschool that was told they couldn't say a prayer?

No but if it was a public high school, they were rightly forbidden.


Quote:
After the program was over, one graduate went up to the podium, the crowd fell silent. The entire graduating class, at one time, sneezed. He just looked at them and said "God Bless You". Sad that they had to sneak that prayer in rather than being allowed to just say a prayer when they graduated, don't you think?

So a colloquial expression that people say when someone sneezes has religious significance? You clever christians really pulled one over on us, eh?? It must have taken months of planning.


Quote:
There isn't just a war on Christmas in this country, there is a war on Christianity.

Ahhh, here comes the whining!!! It was just a matter of time.


Quote:
You can see it in our public schools. When a student at our local elementary school started to say Grace alloud before he ate, the lunchroom attendent told him he had to say it quietly or not at all. When a group of elementary school kids ON THEIR OWN gathered around the flag pole and started to say a prayer in the morning BEFORE SCHOOL STARTED, the principal came out and told them to disperse. When a junior high kid brought his Bible to class to read during free reading time, he was told it wasn't allowed. It took the parents going to the school board to force that school to allow kids to read their Bibles during FREE READING TIME!!!


I'd like to see where this actually happened. If in fact it did happen, then it was a violation of the students rights possibly caused by an overzealous or uninformed employee and not a system wode policy as you are claiming. I'd like to see a cite for these stories if you have them.


Quote:
What do you call it when our rights are being chipped away little by little? Oh, wait, you don't think we have the right to our religion.

No one is chipping away at your rights. If you think so, then tell us exactly what rights you are losing and how they are being lost. There is a lot of christian propaganda out there that has no truth to it but that doesn't stop people like you from eating it up and regurgitating it as the truth.


Quote:
You think it's hard hearted and stupid and that we shouldn't be allowed to pray in front of you, right?

I'd also like to see the details of this sign you keep mentioning and the circumstances surrounding it. if it was in an area wjherte displays of various religions are set up, then you have no say about the content of the displays (with reasonable limitations, of course). That is the price of allowing religious displays on government property (and I am assuming it was since you're complaining). You get to have yours, but then you have to allow all other religions, too and you may not like what they have to say.

Sheila seems to have run away after I asked these questions. Can anyone else answer them?